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#2143599 - 09/03/13 07:12 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
The thirds, but I sort of suck at them. However think of the clarity you need: IMO, the coda of the ballade is sort of an apocalyptic climax where everything is falling apart - it's less of a sin to fudge the thirds while delivering that musical statement, than it is to screw up the thirds in the fourth scherzo.


The thirds in the scherzo are actually incredibly easy if you know the secret. Take the them with 14/23 instead of traditional thirds fingering.

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#2143602 - 09/03/13 07:15 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Oh yeah I already know that laugh . They're the easiest part in that section I think!
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2143605 - 09/03/13 07:17 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
The thirds, but I sort of suck at them. However think of the clarity you need: IMO, the coda of the ballade is sort of an apocalyptic climax where everything is falling apart - it's less of a sin to fudge the thirds while delivering that musical statement, than it is to screw up the thirds in the fourth scherzo.


The thirds in the scherzo are actually incredibly easy if you know the secret. Take the them with 14/23 instead of traditional thirds fingering.


What "traditional thirds fingering?" How could you possibly think of taking them with anything but 14/23?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2143608 - 09/03/13 07:20 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
25/13

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#2143611 - 09/03/13 07:22 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Hahaa, but overall the point still stands: the 4th ballade is dramatic and can afford some mistakes to get the overall musical effect correct. However, with the Scherzo, hitting right notes is part of the musical effect - crystal clarity and breathtaking lightness.
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#2143612 - 09/03/13 07:23 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Hahaa, but overall the point still stands: the 4th ballade is dramatic and can afford some mistakes to get the overall musical effect correct. However, with the Scherzo, hitting right notes is part of the musical effect - crystal clarity and breathtaking lightness.


True. The ballade is a Pogorelich piece. laugh

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#2143616 - 09/03/13 07:30 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Hahaa, but overall the point still stands: the 4th ballade is dramatic and can afford some mistakes to get the overall musical effect correct. However, with the Scherzo, hitting right notes is part of the musical effect - crystal clarity and breathtaking lightness.


True. The ballade is a Pogorelich piece. laugh

No. Nothing is a Pogorelich piece.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2143617 - 09/03/13 07:31 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Hahaa, but overall the point still stands: the 4th ballade is dramatic and can afford some mistakes to get the overall musical effect correct. However, with the Scherzo, hitting right notes is part of the musical effect - crystal clarity and breathtaking lightness.


True. The ballade is a Pogorelich piece. laugh

And ironically...I don't think he's recorded it! (or performed it).

I do like Bunin's rendition of the 4th Ballade. Zimmerman is good, but very clean... I forgot who else I liked, but I think that my own performance is a good reflection of what I like in the piece. It's ego, but if I didn't have anything to say then I wouldn't have learned it!


Edited by Kuanpiano (09/03/13 07:32 PM)
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2143618 - 09/03/13 07:31 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Hahaa, but overall the point still stands: the 4th ballade is dramatic and can afford some mistakes to get the overall musical effect correct. However, with the Scherzo, hitting right notes is part of the musical effect - crystal clarity and breathtaking lightness.


True. The ballade is a Pogorelich piece. laugh

No. Nothing is a Pogorelich piece.


In your insignificant opinion. wink

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#2143619 - 09/03/13 07:31 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
25/13

That sounds like a great way of making the thirds unecessarily difficult AND destroying the effect to boot.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2143621 - 09/03/13 07:33 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Hahaa, but overall the point still stands: the 4th ballade is dramatic and can afford some mistakes to get the overall musical effect correct. However, with the Scherzo, hitting right notes is part of the musical effect - crystal clarity and breathtaking lightness.


True. The ballade is a Pogorelich piece. laugh

And ironically...I don't think he's recorded it! (or performed it).

I do like Bunin's rendition of the 4th Ballade. Zimmerman is good, but very clean... I forgot who else I liked, but I think that my own performance is a good reflection of what I like in the piece. It's ego, but if I didn't have anything to say then I wouldn't have learned it!

What do you think of Rubinstein, Richter, Ashkenazy, etc.? Personally, I think no rendition of this piece will ever satisfy me. No human being can fully understand it. It is not of this world.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2143622 - 09/03/13 07:34 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Hahaa, but overall the point still stands: the 4th ballade is dramatic and can afford some mistakes to get the overall musical effect correct. However, with the Scherzo, hitting right notes is part of the musical effect - crystal clarity and breathtaking lightness.


True. The ballade is a Pogorelich piece. laugh

No. Nothing is a Pogorelich piece.


In your insignificant opinion. wink

In my insignificant opinion in your even more insignificant opinion.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2143623 - 09/03/13 07:35 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
Hahaa, but overall the point still stands: the 4th ballade is dramatic and can afford some mistakes to get the overall musical effect correct. However, with the Scherzo, hitting right notes is part of the musical effect - crystal clarity and breathtaking lightness.


True. The ballade is a Pogorelich piece. laugh

And ironically...I don't think he's recorded it! (or performed it).

I do like Bunin's rendition of the 4th Ballade. Zimmerman is good, but very clean... I forgot who else I liked, but I think that my own performance is a good reflection of what I like in the piece. It's ego, but if I didn't have anything to say then I wouldn't have learned it!


It's a shame if you ask me.

What I particularly like about Bunin's is that when the piece picks up, he really picks it up. You know, when it starts to get a little cooky in the right hand - cross rhythms between hands too. Most people dilly-dally through that I feel. Bunin really brings intensity to it by upping the tempo and keeping it loud. And he only gets more and more intense throughout the coda. His interpretation I feel is closest to what the music calls for.

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#2143624 - 09/03/13 07:36 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
@Poly:

I didn't listen to the piece as extensively as I did to the Liszt sonata. However, I remember being a bit turned off by Richter, but I enjoyed Rubinstein. Ashkenazy, I haven't listened to his performance. I should start listening to him more! It's that I'm put off from his Scriabin sonata recordings - his tone is brutal in those. I admire his recording of Rachmaninoff's second symphony so I don't doubt his musical credentials.


Edited by Kuanpiano (09/03/13 07:37 PM)
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2143628 - 09/03/13 07:41 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
@Poly:

I didn't listen to the piece as extensively as I did to the Liszt sonata. However, I remember being a bit turned off by Richter, but I enjoyed Rubinstein. Ashkenazy, I haven't listened to his performance. I should start listening to him more! It's that I'm put off from his Scriabin sonata recordings - his tone is brutal in those. I admire his recording of Rachmaninoff's second symphony so I don't doubt his musical credentials.

I think Rubinstein's coda steps over the barrier of how many notes you can miss and still retain all the music. Other than that, he is one of the best. Zimmerman's coda is perfect note-wise, but it is too sterile and doesn't get enough passion and drive. In fact, the coda is the place where most renditions fail, technically or musically.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2143629 - 09/03/13 07:43 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
@Poly:

I didn't listen to the piece as extensively as I did to the Liszt sonata. However, I remember being a bit turned off by Richter, but I enjoyed Rubinstein. Ashkenazy, I haven't listened to his performance. I should start listening to him more! It's that I'm put off from his Scriabin sonata recordings - his tone is brutal in those. I admire his recording of Rachmaninoff's second symphony so I don't doubt his musical credentials.

I think Rubinstein's coda steps over the barrier of how many notes you can miss and still retain all the music. Other than that, he is one of the best. Zimmerman's coda is perfect note-wise, but it is too sterile and doesn't get enough passion and drive. In fact, the coda is the place where most renditions fail, technically or musically.


Perfectly said, Poly. It's hard to think something so divine came from a human. I know nobody agrees, but I think Chopin had the greatest musical mind out of them all. The quality of his output is so consistent it's astonishing - rivaling Bach and Mozart in my opinion. The only reason why Chopin wins is because I find his music to be the most moving. All of this being just my [insignificant] opinion. smile

If you want drive and pristine accuracy, watch Bunin's. If you haven't already, you might be in for a treat.


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#2143637 - 09/03/13 08:04 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19848
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
....the primary difficulties in the 4th ballade are musical, not so much technical. And most of the sections aren't all that bad technically (though Mark_C will certainly disagree with me!)

....and I wouldn't be the only one. grin

Your view is an extreme minority view. It might be close to a minority of 1.

And in fact, part of the quite great technical challenge is this thing you said, but for whatever reason you're not counting it a whole lot:

Quote:
The thirds, but I sort of suck at them.

It does not cease to amaze me how a lot of people say that 'whatever' piece "isn't that hard" -- even though there are parts of it that give them a lot of trouble.

My 'favorite' example of that is Chopin's F minor Fantaisie.

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#2143639 - 09/03/13 08:05 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
...I think Chopin had the greatest musical mind out of them all.

He was up there, certainly - close behind Bach and Beethoven in my opinion, and this Ballade and his Opus 58 Sonata are some of the greatest works ever written, in any genre. However, I think a VERY few compositions do come closer to the divine, such as Beethoven's late string quartets or his last piano sonatas. Only a very few. smile
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2143641 - 09/03/13 08:08 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Mark_C]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
....the primary difficulties in the 4th ballade are musical, not so much technical. And most of the sections aren't all that bad technically (though Mark_C will certainly disagree with me!)

....and I wouldn't be the only one. grin

Your view is an extreme minority view. It might be close to a minority of 1.

I think the point he's trying to bring across is that its musical difficulties (one might say impossibilities!) far surpass its technical ones, although I fail to see how anyone could consider even just the notes of the coda "not all that bad." Maybe Kuan is cheating on the inner voices, and in bars 223-226. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2143644 - 09/03/13 08:10 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
The A major prelude is the hardest piece ever written. laugh

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#2143647 - 09/03/13 08:13 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7715
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
The A major prelude is the hardest piece ever written. laugh

No, that would be Schumann's Opus 15 No 7. laugh
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2143650 - 09/03/13 08:19 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
The A major prelude is the hardest piece ever written. laugh

No, that would be Schumann's Opus 15 No 7. laugh


Speaking of this piece, I used to hate it. I thought it was cheesy. Not anymore though. The ending totally makes the piece for me.

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#2143651 - 09/03/13 08:22 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
...I think Chopin had the greatest musical mind out of them all.

He was up there, certainly - close behind Bach and Beethoven in my opinion, and this Ballade and his Opus 58 Sonata are some of the greatest works ever written, in any genre. However, I think a VERY few compositions do come closer to the divine, such as Beethoven's late string quartets or his last piano sonatas. Only a very few. smile


Nobody could write anything so beautiful yet so simple as the prelude-like opening to the fourth ballade. How the heck did he create that melody?! It blows me away.

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#2143704 - 09/03/13 10:35 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Mark_C]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
....the primary difficulties in the 4th ballade are musical, not so much technical. And most of the sections aren't all that bad technically (though Mark_C will certainly disagree with me!)

....and I wouldn't be the only one. grin

Your view is an extreme minority view. It might be close to a minority of 1.

And in fact, part of the quite great technical challenge is this thing you said, but for whatever reason you're not counting it a whole lot:

Quote:
The thirds, but I sort of suck at them.

It does not cease to amaze me how a lot of people say that 'whatever' piece "isn't that hard" -- even though there are parts of it that give them a lot of trouble.

My 'favorite' example of that is Chopin's F minor Fantaisie.

We will have to respectfully disagree laugh

As for my comment about my bad thirds - well, that's why I said they were hard!

As per Poly's comment, well I meant the entire coda was hard, but the thirds especially so. I don't think I faked the section that you referenced, but the octaves are much easier than the rising figures. Rushing is an issue (with all of my playing....sigh) with the entire coda.

And I don't think that I'm an extreme minority view. If anything the minority is 2; stores agrees with me. (well, at least he did last time we were arguing about this).
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

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#2143705 - 09/03/13 10:38 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4893
Loc: USA
What exactly is the argument here?

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#2143713 - 09/03/13 10:47 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19848
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: JoelW
What exactly is the argument here?

Well, it might not be totally clear. smile

As I saw it, what Kuan was saying (essentially) was that the 4th Ballade 'isn't that hard technically.'

Which, as I said (more gently than this), is completely absurd.

BUT, he has "deniability" on it. ha
Because, he didn't 'really' say that. He said the difficulties are more musical than technical, and "most of the sections aren't all that bad technically."

If we look at those things narrowly, arguably he's right.

But I wasn't looking at it narrowly; I was trying to look at it meaningfully. ha

Like, how is it meaningful, if we think we're saying something of any interest and importance, to really only mean that "most of the sections" of the piece aren't that hard technically, if some of them are extremely hard? Why is that worth saying if you only mean it narrowly?

(Kuan, take it!) grin

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#2143714 - 09/03/13 10:47 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
He things I'm under-appreciating the technical difficulty of the 4th Ballade.

Back to the OP, the 4th scherzo is (no questions here), extraordinarily difficult!
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#2143716 - 09/03/13 10:49 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19848
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
He thinks I'm under-appreciating the technical difficulty of the 4th Ballade.

Exactly.

Quote:
Back to the OP, the 4th scherzo is (no questions here), extraordinarily difficult!

Exactly. smile

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#2143717 - 09/03/13 10:50 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Polyphonist]
Kuanpiano Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 2151
Loc: Canada
@Mark - let me try for tomorrow....waking up at 6am is difficult for somebody like me!
_________________________
Working on:
Chopin - Andante Spianato and Grande Polonaise Brillante
Rachmaninoff - Preludes op. 23 nos. 3,4,6, op. 32 no.12
Franck - Violin Sonata

Top
#2143719 - 09/03/13 10:51 PM Re: Chopin E major scherzo Opus 54 [Re: Kuanpiano]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19848
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Kuanpiano
@Mark - let me try for tomorrow....waking up at 6am is difficult for somebody like me!

Actually I think we're pretty done! smile

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