Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Damning with faint praise--DP action is only "good enough"??

their public is then restricted to a few aristocrats with large mansions and grands. and those still willing to play 200+ music rather than some more modern 100+ years old jazz stuff

on the bright side, they can make a lot of money charging heavily

LOL

but that's naturally the partI want to avoid in my memories

Every one is allowed to have an opinion. And yes, it does extend to other instruments. And yes, spending some money on an instrument does tend to move a person up in terms of pecking order in many musical circles. Not always mind you, but there is a correlation.

Two stories: a relative of mine played french horn in band and violin for orchestra in high school. Even for the high school orchestra, the parents felt the peer pressure to buy a decent violin. Decent being a vintage (over 100 years old) violin costing several thousand dollars. After factoring in lessons, and time, the cost of an instrument is often a relatively small slice of total costs. For used instruments, a high percentage of that cost can be gotten back when it is time to sell.

The second story, I recently told on another thread. Another relative did youth piano competitions. He started on a keyboard, 61-keys non-weighted with a computer teaching program. When he showed some promise, the parents signed him up for teacher lessons, and bought a Baldwin acoustic upright. After a couple of years of casual youth competition, the teacher suggested a grand piano. The parents balked at the space requirements and the money. That marked the end of the road for competitions. Yes, he could have continued, but only with the understanding that he had little chance of doing well. At this slightly higher level, most of the other kids that he was competing against had access to a decent acoustic grand piano, so the teacher and others felt he would be at a disadvantage.

So as much as the regulars here love their digitals, in many circles they are still viewed a certain way.

Like I opened with, everyone can have an opinion. If a kid wants to play in a certain sports league they are expected to buy, or get sponsors to buy, certain equipment from certain makers. It is not all that different in music. There is a range, there are choices, but as a kid moves up in competition, the level of equipment often becomes more expensive as well. Anyone with a kid in an equipment heavy sport such as baseball or hockey can understand.

"So as much as the regulars here love their digitals, in many circles they are still viewed a certain way."

Digital piano-ists have their own pecking order! You don`t always get to hear `em . . .

Very true.

In any event, I began this post to encourage a debate and solicit different opinions.

So far, the most discouraging (and disturbing) information, for me, was contained in that teacher's forum link, in which elitist, stuck-up piano teachers were dismissing Digital Pianos, and those students who deigned to use them.

I have long experience with acoustic pianos, and a relatively new/recent experience with DP pianos. I also am at the level in which I could teach classical piano to new students. IMHO, based on the quality of current DPs from the leading manufacturers, I simply cannot fathom advising a student that they shouldn't or couldn't learn on such a DP. As others have already commented, it almost seems that these, for lack of a better term, "acoustic snobs", are basing their opinions on 20+ year old digital piano technology.

IMHO, a well designed DP has a unique and honorable position of providing a bona fide piano experience for those who are constrained by either budget and/or location -- or require portable and/or technical flexibility (e.g. stage pianos used for live performance). These legitimate attributes are just not available with traditional acoustic pianos.

In other words, as much as I love a fine acoustic GP, I feel very sorry for these "acoustic" snobs...and in particular, for these aforementioned piano teachers who should know better.

That may be wishful thinking. I'm sure more than a few of them have played the latest and greatest digitals, but still find them lacking.

There is a thread on the beginners forum about a person with a relatively new digital, very excited about getting a used acoustic upright. I do not think this excitement is based on bias, or having an old beat up digital. It seems to be legitimate excitement about the acoustic experience. The story is not uncommon, so there is more to it than the regulars here might want to admit to. Acoustic instruments do tend to have a very different energy to them. The sound that a person hears is a small part of the overall experience.

The main issue holding back DP's these days is not the action but the sound technology. Going back and forth from acoustic pianos to DPs makes this embarrasingly clear.

Edit: I should add that I am basing this sentence on the better DP actions such as Kawai's or Yamaha's, not on cheapish ones such as Yamaha's GHS which are quite a distance from a decent acoustic action.

If you're talking about Sinophilia, I think she used to use a Casio PX-135, not really a good example of the better of todays DP offerings, i.e. no contest.

So true. Grand piano in house in L.A. with Kawai CA65 in San Francisco condo. Happy in SF until I am in L.A. on my grand.

I won't deny that.

However, on the other hand, there is a significant segment of the "piano population" in which an acoustic piano is not a viable option. In those cases, the current DPs offer not simply a "good enough" alternative, but an alternative that is superior for their intended purposes and application.

Bottom line, I just do not view (in my experience) a quality, current generation DP in such narrow minded, dismissive and limiting terms.

You can enjoy your CA-65 either in the house in LA, or a condo in San Francisco. However,you most likely can't enjoy an acoustic Grand Piano in the condo. Now, in this sense, which one has the limitation?

Again, my point is not which is the optimum solution given no constraints. I wish I was driving around in a shiny new Aston Martin Vanquish...but my Volvo S60 gets me from point "A" to point "B" in not only respectable comfort and safety, but with a satisfactory driving experience.

Well there are different ways to compare. Entry-level to entry-level or by dollar cost. The PX-135 is an entry level digital, or was two years ago. The used upright might be considered an entry level upright, a used one.

By straight cost, digitals are going to win most head-to-head comparisons. Add in twice a year tunings for acoustics at $100 to $150 per, and it quickly becomes a runaway for digitals when a comparison is based only on cost.

Rule #1 is that no one wins an argument on the Internet, so I see it as a waste of time to argue. I have told my stories and hopefully they have added to a calm discussion. Digitals and acoustics are different, both have their fans and detractors. Many would like to have both an acoustic and a digital or perhaps several of each.

Starving Lion is back!

here

Shhhhhh....

If you say his name three times, he will be summoned

Sorry, but I'm in the 'good enough' camp.

Quote from your first post 'I argue that if one has adequate training and experience playing classical piano, on either traditional upright or grand style acoustic pianos...one should not have a particular issue or trouble in adjusting to these new DP pianos with quality actions'. I agree with this, but you need to have the proper training with a classical piano! My piano teacher can handle all digitals, from a Thomann DP with its awful action to my Kawai and still phrase the music as one should (of course the results are different from instrument to instrument, but far superior to what I can get).

The problem is with the learning part. Learning and practicing on an acoustic (the higher the quality, the better, as it has been said by previous members) can get you further and faster to where we all want to be than learning on a digital. That's not to say that people that learned piano on a digital cannot play an acoustic! Of course they can, but likely won't be able to take advantage of the acoustic at its fullest.

Here's my take on why this happens. I'm in the 'piano sound is influenced only by key velocity' camp. If correctly programmed, a robot could play the same as a concert pianist, without the extraneous hand movements and face gestures. However, because we're human, we need to learn 'tricks' to assure us we get the sound that we want out of the piano. We don't have the fineness to control the velocity of the key, especially at higher tempos, so we learn certain gestures that guarantee a better accuracy of the effect we want from the piano. For instance finger staccato (the whip-like movement), playing with forearm weight at pianissimo to be able to better control the sound, learning how to come down on a chord to play ff, etc.

On a digital piano these gestures are not required because it's far easier to control a digital (the sound generator is far more forgiving that the acoustic palette of the acoustic). For instance I can play pianissimo just by lightly pressing the key on my DP, but that would produce no sound on an acoustic, or produce missed notes in a passage on the acoustic. Or I can hear the thumb being louder on the acoustic, especially at turns, but not so much on the digital.

Of course, if you already have the technique, then it's easy to control a digital keyboard. But if you don't, the keyboard (+ sound generating system) is only 'good enough'.

Bogs, you talk like as if a DP player will ever play an acoustic. or as if Beethoven, Chopin and a career in concert halls is the only reason people should play a piano.

you guys should drop that bone

I recognise the AP problem of ppp notes that don't sound - which is surely something that would be better designed out of an instrument than remain an essential part of it. And once achieved, no point in developing a skill that is no longer required. Oddly enough, the VPC1 is authentically unreliable; it will fail to sound if you're too stealthy, just like an AP.

As to getting the full palette out of the DP being easier, that certainly hasn't been my experience. For sure you can set it up for a nice easy-to-play range between ppp and mf/f. Ditto for the upper half (2/3 even). But try and set it up for the full ppp to fff and it's another story, a nightmare to keep disciplined in the middle range (although of course that depends on the curve, it's usually hard to control in some part of the range - not necessarily the middle). IOW, to play a DP well requires considerable skill in velocity control. Skills are required but they're of a slightly different nature from those demanded in playing an AP.

The thumb response too, I don't sense any shortcomings here.

My DP sits immediately next to a Knight k15 upright - very average but maintained as well as it might be by a technician BIL. I don't touch the AP now. It's unpleasant to play and the results are inferior, musically, in every respect to those I can coax out of the DP. The delivery of sound, of course, is another story. The Knight has a great sound stage and a terrible tone.

Whatever shortcomings might fairly be associated with DPs we could also justfiably say that an AP's action often isn't good enough. Surprisingly often, perhaps.

I grew up playing on a terrible spinet that couldn't hold its tune (not that it was ever tuned). The frustration at playing such a sub-standard instrument would drive me mad sometimes, wanting to give up playing piano altogether. I resisted practicing despite loving the instrument. Any chance I would get to play a decent acoustic I would grab onto, even to the annoyance of others around me (digitals back then were abhorrent). It wasn't until I was an adult and purchased a decent grand piano that I really began to improve at the rate I should have. I've upgraded since then, and my playing continued to improve with the improved instruments, plus my pleasure at getting a response was increased.

This summer I was forced to practice on my FP-7. While not top-of-the-line, it's still a decent digital. Playing advance classical repertoire on it for 3 months straight, however, was painful. A lot of tension creeped into my playing that I had to undo when I returned to my Petrof this month. Not to mention that the lack of expressive capabilities when compared with the AP made me play with less expression - why try something when you won't get any different response?

Yes, when I play any instrument I can coax out of it sounds that hopefully are close to what I want. The better the instrument, the closer to the actual sound I hear in my head. However, to constantly play something like that deadens the desire for those sounds, because no matter how much you coax, it's not going to do it.

So is an inferior AP a good instrument to play at your best? No. Is a DP a good instrument to play at your best? I don't think so, but I admittedly have not played any of the top-of-the-line models, so know my opinion is based on models in the $2k range and lower (I've played Casios, Yamahas, and Rolands in this price range). Are either of these instruments going to prevent someone from enjoying piano? Perhaps to some extent, but not completely. My piano growing up was frustrating, but I still loved playing. My DP was great to have this summer, otherwise I'd have no instrument at all. I still practiced and loved playing. Both instruments affected how I played in a negative way, however. That's all I'm saying.

I'm with you, Tritium, I'm with you.

I'd have thought that good DPs should allow you to play notes without them sounding by pressing down gently, just like APs. I certainly have no trouble doing it on my V-Piano, so, presumably, all Rolands using the same PHA-III should have the same attributes.

And in case you're wondering why anyone would want to play keys without the notes sounding, it is required for special effects in some classical music, like in Schumann's Carnaval, to pick up on sympathetic vibration generated by other notes to give a ghostly sound. That of course requires that the DP can also do that....

As for whether playing on a DP is "good enough", I can say that I've spent long periods (months) over the past three years without touching anything other than my V, and have absolutely no problems when I then go to a showroom to play their big grands. Nothing missing or difficult to reproduce in terms of expression, nuances, dynamics, articulation etc. As I mentioned several times before, I've frequently found more differences in action between different acoustic pianos than between my DP and some grands that I've played. But as the action is intimately linked with tone production (e.g. a bright-sounding piano feels lighter and sounds louder), I can't generalize and say that I'd find the same attributes for all other Rolands using the PHA-III.

For the past year, I've been giving a mini-recital once a month to a group of people, playing on an old but well-maintained six-foot C.Bechstein. Its key action is notably shallow, and though I love playing on it, I need a few minutes to adapt my touch to it every time. It also feels rather light, certainly lighter than my V. One day, I might bring a stack of coins to measure its key weight accurately.......