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Topic Options
#2148513 - 09/11/13 11:41 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1820
Loc: London, England
Alfredo,
What was all that about? To take one word and create a specious argument is a cheap debating trick and gives me a huge clue. Are you deliberately misunderstanding?. Have you ever been an employer? There are whole philosophies concerning the servant that you, surprisingly, appear to have no knowledge of other than at an extremely simplistic level.

Note the addition of the word "master" is yours. It is possible to serve without having a master as you seem to understand it. Serving and being subservient are not the same. If I serve you a drink do you automatically assume that you are my master?. Would I voluntarily spend any time with such a person? Would you?

I know that others understand what I'm saying with no difficulty so I will not be drawn any further on any of this.

I must ask if you tune professionally? Do you have any association with the piano industry? Manufacturers? Large dealers?
If so, we probably have a mutual friend in the business. that would help.

I'm sure you'll understand that I need to know who you are if I'm to trust, respect, or respond to any of your requests.

I regilarly dine and sup with colleagues in the profession that I have met on this forum and there are more I correspond with that I would enjoy the company of if we lived closer. Many in the heart of the profession have guessed my identity correctly.

What concerts have you been to in London? BBC broadcasts heard?
You may have already unwittingly heard my tuning.

A respected colleague has already explained to you my preference for the cloak of invisibility who prefers the power of the written word. Yet still you push to meet and, by your own admission, part of your agenda is to argue. Such a meeting is not to my taste. As I have said, I have nothing to sell, lose, explain, etc. If you read closely you will see I simply offer my experience, take it or leave it. The assumptions that you make say a lot about you.

I am a very private person. The first thing is for you to fully respect this. What you are asking of me is what our American friends call too pushy.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2148581 - 09/12/13 03:26 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
alfredo capurso Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/10/07
Posts: 1085
Loc: Sicily - Italy

Hi rxd,

At the opposite, I was trying to depart from banalities, trying to focus on those "certain parameters" you mention, but please do not take it personal, I just like discussing concepts and different opinions, leave clich├ęs aside.

Yes, I do prepare pianos professionally and I am proposing you to talk about and share our approach and tunings at a professional level, not really about the last one_hour_tuning.

Oh, perhaps you are not interested in my invitation... nothing wrong with that :-)

Regards, a.c.
.
_________________________
alfredo

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#2148686 - 09/12/13 10:16 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Nobody ever asks for deviations from the standard product. The most common exception, perhaps the only one today, is visiting orchestras requesting the standard product but at 442 in which case a whole different piano or set of pianos is sent in. Rarely is the pitch of a stable piano changed and changed back for only one or two concerts and rehearsals.
This is an international forum and yet we never hear from those professional tuners serving symphony orchestras in other countries. It would be fascinating to hear from the tuners themselves what is common elsewhere.


Hello,rxd.
WHY 442?
Or are they, these super tuners are forced to pull up in a favor of violins and trombones?
We would all like to hear their verdict here. Are when however happen it's ?
I'm afraid that frequent lifting pitch for 442 and above may adversely affect the expensive concert grand piano. Or am I wrong?
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

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#2148710 - 09/12/13 10:54 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Mwm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/13
Posts: 752
As an aside to all this discussion, if one uses a C fork when setting a given temperament, A will float.

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#2148761 - 09/12/13 12:57 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Mwm]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1105
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Mwm
As an aside to all this discussion, if one uses a C fork when setting a given temperament, A will float.


A should not float noticeably when tuning in ET in most cases.

For many years, I used a C-fork to set the temperament by ear. I got in the habit of checking A against an A-fork as a last step... just curious. On almost all the pianos I tuned, except for the old Baldwin "Classic" baby grands and several others, A4 was either beatless against the fork, or rarely had the slowest detectable roll.
_________________________
Joe Gumbosky
Piano Tuning & Repair
www.tinyurl.com/tunerjoe
(semi-retired)

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#2149807 - 09/14/13 01:24 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Maximillyan]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1820
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Nobody ever asks for deviations from the standard product. The most common exception, perhaps the only one today, is visiting orchestras requesting the standard product but at 442 in which case a whole different piano or set of pianos is sent in. Rarely is the pitch of a stable piano changed and changed back for only one or two concerts and rehearsals.
This is an international forum and yet we never hear from those professional tuners serving symphony orchestras in other countries. It would be fascinating to hear from the tuners themselves what is common elsewhere.


Hello,rxd.
WHY 442?
Or are they, these super tuners are forced to pull up in a favor of violins and trombones?
We would all like to hear their verdict here. Are when however happen it's ?
I'm afraid that frequent lifting pitch for 442 and above may adversely affect the expensive concert grand piano. Or am I wrong?

Hi. Max,
Over the past few generations, pitch has settled somewhat with the result that most of Europe uses 442 with some individual orchestras even higher. Gt Britain and America use 440 with pockets of 442.

Why? There is a tendency among musicians to prefer to be above pitch than below. Some venues, particularly open air ones feel more comfortable at a higher pitch. It can all become like a dog chasing its own tail but it all seems settled now. With the result that when a european orchestra visits lower pitch countries, they can't adapt so we supply pianos and tuned percussion at their pitch. When 440 based orchestras tour, we can adapt more readily upwards.

For pianos to be changed in pitch, we demand 2-3 tunings up and 3-4 tunings back down. I can hear tooners out there asking why, because they jerk the pitch of pianos around all the time with no observable ill effects. A piano can do some peculiar things when a room is full and then return to normal by the next morning sounding all innocent as though nothing had ever happened. Only tuners with experience of intermission check overs and attending concerts will know this and catch them red handed on the act. Different pianos and different rooms behave differently. The more stable the piano is, the less it is likely to wander when we least want it to.

Where is your nearest concert hall that attracts major artists or supports an orchestra? What is the standard pitch there?

Joe, we talked about sharp trebles, I often find this only a few weeks or even days after I have tuned a piano. I can tune it electronically and check it later and the hi treble has drifted. We accept drifting flat as 'normal' but they drift sharp just as often ( more often, it seems to me) when the rest of the piano has remained in tune. I have not observed this much movement in the lowest bass, I suspect that is years of tuners not bothering with them or genuinely hearing them there. The partials run extremely sharp on those strings and, depending on where the ear is focused.

Where the ear focuses has a lot to do with our perception. Perhaps some hear these notes much the same as we see things with peripheral vision, in that while we see them, they are not in the same focus as the are when we stare straight at them. Maybe hearing is the same in its own way.


Edited by rxd (09/14/13 01:32 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2149859 - 09/14/13 04:57 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Hi RXD SIr, I am looking for good recordings, made in here, for your curiosity.

You may not find them particularely different, but I dont know.

I see no reason why we should the tune the high treble very differently from one tuner to the other.

why do they raise sometime ? may be the moisture of the air raised, may be something else.
may be the tuner is not aware of the amount of torque he leave in the pin, and the pin move.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2149948 - 09/14/13 10:17 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Very true. A440-441 is never a problem. Even A442 won't raise an eyebrow. However,if the piano drifts even few cents below A440 the orchestra - especially the brass and woodwinds - will complain. For the concert stage I always tuned a little sharp. How much is "little" depended upon the conditions. Techs who prep pianos regularly for orchestras are usually familiar with the particular or peculiar conditions* in the various halls in their respective areas.

*Not referring to acoustics here.


Edited by bkw58 (09/14/13 10:28 AM)
Edit Reason: *addition
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

Top
#2150449 - 09/15/13 08:52 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1550
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Maximillyan
Originally Posted By: rxd
Nobody ever asks for deviations from the standard product. The most common exception, perhaps the only one today, is visiting orchestras requesting the standard product but at 442 in which case a whole different piano or set of pianos is sent in. Rarely is the pitch of a stable piano changed and changed back for only one or two concerts and rehearsals.
This is an international forum and yet we never hear from those professional tuners serving symphony orchestras in other countries. It would be fascinating to hear from the tuners themselves what is common elsewhere.


Hello,rxd.
WHY 442?
Or are they, these super tuners are forced to pull up in a favor of violins and trombones?
We would all like to hear their verdict here. Are when however happen it's ?
I'm afraid that frequent lifting pitch for 442 and above may adversely affect the expensive concert grand piano. Or am I wrong?

I have not observed this much movement in the lowest bass, I suspect that is years of tuners not bothering with them or genuinely hearing them there. The partials run extremely sharp on those strings and, depending on where the ear is focused.

Where the ear focuses has a lot to do with our perception. Perhaps some hear these notes much the same as we see things with peripheral vision, in that while we see them, they are not in the same focus as the are when we stare straight at them. Maybe hearing is the same in its own way.

Good day, rxd.
The hearing is so unpredictable as how many people here would be so much different hearings. No more the value of subjective than a hearing. This is the greatest joy of creation.
Thank of a CREATOR!
_________________________
A=440
http://www.donguluk.ucoz.ru/

Top
#2150472 - 09/15/13 10:06 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
you do not need a particular acute hearing to tune the treble, as the instrument signals when the note is in tune.

Now we need to hear correctly those high frequencies, and it get less easy with age.

In the end I dioscovered that there is an absolute agreement between tuners on how those last octaves are sounding.

The spot is so tight it is just not possible to tune at another pitch, or you use a differnt listening method than most.

what is more surprising is that the M3 and even the M6 are also sounding the same. I would expect the M3 to have different behaviour, they do not (after tuning by octaves 12 ths doubles, fast 5th and 4th check, mostly focusing on the resonance of the top note)

We are not even in the "beats" region.


Edited by Olek (09/15/13 10:06 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2150475 - 09/15/13 10:14 AM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: bkw58]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Very true. A440-441 is never a problem. Even A442 won't raise an eyebrow. However,if the piano drifts even few cents below A440 the orchestra - especially the brass and woodwinds - will complain. For the concert stage I always tuned a little sharp. How much is "little" depended upon the conditions. Techs who prep pianos regularly for orchestras are usually familiar with the particular or peculiar conditions* in the various halls in their respective areas.

*Not referring to acoustics here.


sure, sometime it get very warm, and in some p^laces it stay quiet enough
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2150849 - 09/15/13 09:44 PM Re: Question About Tuning [Re: Duane Graves]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
Nash is correct. Start with a fork. Learn to set a temperment. You will never hurt for business if you learn to tune pianos by ear. Musicians will love you!
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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