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#2150757 - 09/15/13 08:06 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Sorry Mark but I agree with the others. You can't tell someone what they like! frown

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#2150769 - 09/15/13 08:22 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: JoelW]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13763
Loc: Iowa City, IA
He (or she) is an anonymous person on an internet forum who may or may not be able to play the piano well.


Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Your namesake, by the way, is not borderlining on insanity - he IS insane.


Who are you to judge Ivo Pogorelich?
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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#2150772 - 09/15/13 08:26 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Pogorelich.]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7516
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I think tempo is a very personal thing (unless it's borderlining on insanity, which this isn't)

I wouldn't be so quick to say that. grin Your namesake, by the way, is not borderlining on insanity - he IS insane


That does not refute my point, and we're not discussing Pogorelich here.

You didn't quote my whole post (you left out the important part), and note the "by the way."
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2150773 - 09/15/13 08:27 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7516
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Your namesake, by the way, is not borderlining on insanity - he IS insane.


Who are you to judge Ivo Pogorelich?

This means nothing. Here we go again with that so popular, and so misguided, fallacy.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2150774 - 09/15/13 08:29 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Kreisler]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7516
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Kreisler
He (or she) is an anonymous person on an internet forum who may or may not be able to play the piano well.


Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Your namesake, by the way, is not borderlining on insanity - he IS insane.


Who are you to judge Ivo Pogorelich?

He, for the record. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2150777 - 09/15/13 08:34 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Your namesake, by the way, is not borderlining on insanity - he IS insane.


Who are you to judge Ivo Pogorelich?

This means nothing. Here we go again with that so popular, and so misguided, fallacy.


That's not what I meant. Who are you to judge him based on his playing? Are you a psychiatrist, or just opinionated? Why would you call him insane for his odd playing? What I'd like to say right now would get me banned.


Edited by JoelW (09/15/13 09:05 PM)
Edit Reason: typos

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#2150778 - 09/15/13 08:34 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Polyphonist]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
I think tempo is a very personal thing (unless it's borderlining on insanity, which this isn't)

I wouldn't be so quick to say that. grin Your namesake, by the way, is not borderlining on insanity - he IS insane


That does not refute my point, and we're not discussing Pogorelich here.

You didn't quote my whole post (you left out the important part), and note the "by the way."


I did not feel the need to address your other point.

You also did not address MY point.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2150799 - 09/15/13 08:57 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7516
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Your namesake, by the way, is not borderlining on insanity - he IS insane.


Who are you to judge Ivo Pogorelich?

This means nothing. Here we go again with that so popular, and so misguided, fallacy.


That's not what I meant. Who are you to judge him based on his playing? Are a psychiatrist, just an opinionated? Why would you call him insane for his odd playing? What I'd like to say right now would get me banned.

Joel, you're taking this way too seriously. What I said was a joke. I don't actually think he's insane. I probably should have added a smiley to show what I meant.

Pogorelich and Joel, I didn't know we weren't on the same page there. I sincerely apologize for any offense you may have taken. laugh
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2150811 - 09/15/13 09:05 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Okay. It's just that a lot of people hold that belief in seriousness and it's ridiculous.

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#2150819 - 09/15/13 09:10 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: JoelW]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7516
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Okay. It's just that a lot of people hold that belief in seriousness and it's ridiculous.

I too indeed find it ridiculous to label someone insane because of unorthodox interpretations. "Odd" or "quirky" is about as far as one can go based on that alone. Again, sorry for any confusion.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2150824 - 09/15/13 09:16 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Kuanpiano]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
It's okay, no biggie.

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#2150826 - 09/15/13 09:17 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Polyphonist]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19230
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Okay. It's just that a lot of people hold that belief in seriousness and it's ridiculous.

I too indeed find it ridiculous to label someone insane because of unorthodox interpretations. "Odd" or "quirky" is about as far as one can go based on that alone. Again, sorry for any confusion.
Totally missing the point as usual. It's light years beyond inappropriate to call someone insane even supposedly as a joke. This shows an insensitivity(just plain nastiness)that's inexcusable and is typical of many of your posts.

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#2150875 - 09/15/13 10:18 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Kuanpiano]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 853
Loc: UK, Brighton
Strange...there was me thinking that "insane" was a fairly common term of endearment. I mean, people have used the terms "crazy" and "nuts" and plenty others like it without invoking this tirade of hostile counter-remand...but "insane" is off limits? Good to know...
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2150882 - 09/15/13 10:25 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: FSO]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: FSO
Strange...there was me thinking that "insane" was a fairly common term of endearment. I mean, people have used the terms "crazy" and "nuts" and plenty others like it without invoking this tirade of hostile counter-remand...but "insane" is off limits? Good to know...


Context, FSO. Context. Forever and always.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2150901 - 09/15/13 10:52 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Kuanpiano]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 853
Loc: UK, Brighton
But..but..."those crazy tempos" etc....and...and the context here was obvious frown I mean, it may not have been gotten...urgh, worse grammar you couldn't hope to find...it may not have been understood, but after being explained Joel accepted that it was a mere miscommunication it....it's like if I...*sigh* people will be different and hold different opinions about what's appropriate, I suppose *harumph* laugh Um...I just wish the benefit of the doubt fairy and benevolence pixie would visit a few more people before they lavish their helpings of prudential indignant wrath upon others...I mean.....he wasn't being mean... frown
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2150903 - 09/15/13 10:57 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: FSO]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: FSO
But..but..."those crazy tempos" etc....and...and the context here was obvious frown I mean, it may not have been gotten...urgh, worse grammar you couldn't hope to find...it may not have been understood, but after being explained Joel accepted that it was a mere miscommunication it....it's like if I...*sigh* people will be different and hold different opinions about what's appropriate, I suppose *harumph* laugh Um...I just wish the benefit of the doubt fairy and benevolence pixie would visit a few more people before they lavish their helpings of prudential indignant wrath upon others...I mean.....he wasn't being mean... frown


LOL! Now *I* am lost, FSO!!! Who, he?
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2150907 - 09/15/13 11:03 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Pogorelich.]
Mark_C Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19664
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Can you give me an example?

Will do, when I do the 'full' reply to the OP. smile

My 1st reply was a little summary. Everything since then has been a digression on the sub-topic of posting a recording from such a mid-stage of working on a piece.

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Sorry Mark but I agree with the others. You can't tell someone what they like! frown

I agree!

But I'm not "telling"; I'm predicting, and with confidence.
More later.

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#2150910 - 09/15/13 11:08 PM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Cinnamonbear]
FSO Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/03/12
Posts: 853
Loc: UK, Brighton
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear

LOL! Now *I* am lost, FSO!!! Who, he?

Well, it had to happen some day laugh Um, "he" is Polyphonist, unwitting lightening rod to the static despondence of social reparation...saying that Pogorelich IS insane is clearly neither hyperbole nor exaggeration, it's mere fallacy and not meant to be taken in earnest...I mean, if one here had said "yes, your majesty" would everyone assume they thought their subject of address to be of royal breed? I...well, actually, maybe I shouldn't assume...but I'd hope not. Um...yes...looking at that previous post on its own....it's a bubble of question marks, I'll admit grin Sorry... laugh
Xxx
_________________________
Sometimes, we all just need to be shown a little kindness <3

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#2151134 - 09/16/13 09:04 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Polyphonist]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Okay. It's just that a lot of people hold that belief in seriousness and it's ridiculous.

I too indeed find it ridiculous to label someone insane because of unorthodox interpretations. "Odd" or "quirky" is about as far as one can go based on that alone. Again, sorry for any confusion.


Nice backtracking.

Back to topic - about tempo being a personal thing. Have you ever forced a student to play at a tempo YOU like just because You've heard it that way for millions of years? Or have you suffered the reverse? You know, there isn't only one Allegro, and there isn't only one Adagio, etc...
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2151136 - 09/16/13 09:06 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Mark_C]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Can you give me an example?

Will do, when I do the 'full' reply to the OP. smile

My 1st reply was a little summary. Everything since then has been a digression on the sub-topic of posting a recording from such a mid-stage of working on a piece.

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Sorry Mark but I agree with the others. You can't tell someone what they like! frown

I agree!

But I'm not "telling"; I'm predicting, and with confidence.
More later.


Kind of condescending, don't you think? Just because he's young doesn't mean he's stupid.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

Top
#2151138 - 09/16/13 09:09 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Pogorelich.]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Okay. It's just that a lot of people hold that belief in seriousness and it's ridiculous.

I too indeed find it ridiculous to label someone insane because of unorthodox interpretations. "Odd" or "quirky" is about as far as one can go based on that alone. Again, sorry for any confusion.


Nice backtracking.


I thought it could be this but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Not that you should. smile

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#2151139 - 09/16/13 09:10 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Pogorelich.]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Can you give me an example?

Will do, when I do the 'full' reply to the OP. smile

My 1st reply was a little summary. Everything since then has been a digression on the sub-topic of posting a recording from such a mid-stage of working on a piece.

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Sorry Mark but I agree with the others. You can't tell someone what they like! frown

I agree!

But I'm not "telling"; I'm predicting, and with confidence.
More later.


Kind of condescending, don't you think? Just because he's young doesn't mean he's stupid.


Me or Kuan? I don't know who's young around here... I just assume everyone is over 40.

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#2151157 - 09/16/13 09:44 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: JoelW]
pianoloverus Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19230
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Okay. It's just that a lot of people hold that belief in seriousness and it's ridiculous.

I too indeed find it ridiculous to label someone insane because of unorthodox interpretations. "Odd" or "quirky" is about as far as one can go based on that alone. Again, sorry for any confusion.


Nice backtracking.


I thought it could be this but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Not that you should. smile
I don't think he deserves the slightest benefit of the doubt based on his incredible large number of nasty and arrogant posts in the past. This is not the case of a poster who is usually reasonable, supportive, and nice making a random comment about someone being "insane". Just the fact that he claimed a smiley would have made everything OK shows his true attitude.

I also find his comments to Kuan in this thread quite obnoxious. What kind of person writes something like "I guess I won't be attending your recital then" because the OP didn't agree with his criticism?


Edited by pianoloverus (09/16/13 10:24 AM)

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#2151162 - 09/16/13 09:47 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: JoelW]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Okay. It's just that a lot of people hold that belief in seriousness and it's ridiculous.

I too indeed find it ridiculous to label someone insane because of unorthodox interpretations. "Odd" or "quirky" is about as far as one can go based on that alone. Again, sorry for any confusion.


Nice backtracking.


I thought it could be this but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Not that you should. smile


Please, Joel. Was there any doubt??? Poly was obviously jerking Pogo's chain. Loud and hard. He seems to be able to dish, but not take. And Kuanpiano's thread is mucked. *sigh*
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2151167 - 09/16/13 09:53 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: pianoloverus]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Okay. It's just that a lot of people hold that belief in seriousness and it's ridiculous.

I too indeed find it ridiculous to label someone insane because of unorthodox interpretations. "Odd" or "quirky" is about as far as one can go based on that alone. Again, sorry for any confusion.


Nice backtracking.


I thought it could be this but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Not that you should. smile
I don't think he deserves the slightest benefit of the doubt based on his incredible large number of previous number of nasty and arrogant posts. This is not the case of a poster who is usually reasonable, supportive, and nice making a random comment about someone being "insane". Just the fact that he claimed a smiley would have made everything OK shows his true attitude. I also find his comments to Kuan in this thread quite obnoxious.

What kind of person writes something like "I guess I won't be attending your recital then" because the OP didn't agree with his criticism?


I agree about the negative comments. Poly, you gotta work on that, man. You can be pretty mean sometimes.

The reason why I gave him the benefit of the doubt is because it's a forum and I have no real way of knowing his intent behind those typed words. There's no tone of voice, no body language, etc. to make a real assessment of intent.

Doesn't mean you guys should give him the BOTD though. wink

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#2151168 - 09/16/13 09:54 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: JoelW]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3847
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Okay. It's just that a lot of people hold that belief in seriousness and it's ridiculous.

I too indeed find it ridiculous to label someone insane because of unorthodox interpretations. "Odd" or "quirky" is about as far as one can go based on that alone. Again, sorry for any confusion.


Nice backtracking.


I thought it could be this but I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Not that you should. smile
I don't think he deserves the slightest benefit of the doubt based on his incredible large number of previous number of nasty and arrogant posts. This is not the case of a poster who is usually reasonable, supportive, and nice making a random comment about someone being "insane". Just the fact that he claimed a smiley would have made everything OK shows his true attitude. I also find his comments to Kuan in this thread quite obnoxious.

What kind of person writes something like "I guess I won't be attending your recital then" because the OP didn't agree with his criticism?


I agree about the negative comments. Poly, you gotta work on that, man. You can be pretty mean sometimes.

The reason why I gave him the benefit of the doubt is because it's a forum and I have no real way of knowing his real intent behind his typed words. There's no tone of voice, no body language, etc to make a real assessment of intent.


Use the force, Luke. Watch the patterns. It all becomes clear.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2151169 - 09/16/13 09:55 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Cinnamonbear]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear

Use the force, Luke. Watch the patterns. It all becomes clear.


I guess I will pay closer attention from now on.

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#2151173 - 09/16/13 10:06 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Kuanpiano]
Tim Adrianson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/10
Posts: 1024
Hi kuanpiano! A few random comments, after two listenings to your presentation:

1 Digital pianos are really getting better and better. Now even works as complex and subtle as late Chopin are beginning to sound reasonably "authentic".

2 Overall, I like what I regarded as an analytic, "objective" approach to this movement, and particularly so in the really quite complicated development section. I could follow the progression of thought, and was struck by the continuing tension between the fiery maestoso declamation and the lyrical contrasting material.

3 For what it's worth (not very much, in this man's league!), I wasn't bothered by the speeds and pacing of the various sections. I would say what was most bothersome at this stage was for me a quite unconvincing conclusion -- it almost came off for me that you were surprised it was so close to the end, and in that vein I was really not surprised that you fluffed a few notes in that section. To a lesser extent, I would say that other transitions within the movement were not satisfying, either. My only other general comment is that the extended lyrical material doesn't "sing" enough for my taste, although I did find that to be in keeping with your overall attitude towards this movement.

4 In short, I do not disagree with you that this IS a work-in-progress -- but, unlike a couple of others, I don't consider your fundamental approach to be misconceived.

Thanks for sharing this, and good luck on the performance!

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#2151177 - 09/16/13 10:17 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: JoelW]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Can you give me an example?

Will do, when I do the 'full' reply to the OP. smile

My 1st reply was a little summary. Everything since then has been a digression on the sub-topic of posting a recording from such a mid-stage of working on a piece.

Originally Posted By: JoelW
Sorry Mark but I agree with the others. You can't tell someone what they like! frown

I agree!

But I'm not "telling"; I'm predicting, and with confidence.
More later.


Kind of condescending, don't you think? Just because he's young doesn't mean he's stupid.


Me or Kuan? I don't know who's young around here... I just assume everyone is over 40.


What?! Do I look over 40 to you??? Hahaha! I'm in my early 20s!

Anyway I meant Kuan.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2151191 - 09/16/13 10:30 AM Re: Chopin - Piano Sonata op. 58 mov.1 - Practice recording [Re: Pogorelich.]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4762
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
What?! Do I look over 40 to you??? Hahaha! I'm in my early 20s!


I know you are. I meant everybody else. laugh The only youngins around here that I know are you, me, Debrucey (where'd he go?), and OSK.

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