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The irony is that many European, if not American tuners, resisted the introduction of equal temperaments by piano manufacturers in the nineteenth century.
Last edited by Withindale; 09/17/13 04:30 PM.
Ian Russell Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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All of this proves is that the questioning of The Holy Church of Temperamental Equality will not be tolerated. Heresy, I say, Heresy! Burn the Witch! I have just contacted the mods and now will contact Frank through his direct email. Honestly, this is quite enough. We are technicians, here for free, that are supposed to assist people with questions not to endure this endless,continual infantile nonsense.
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Mr. Silverwood,
If you consider a discussion of temperament to be "infantile," it demeans your whole profession.
Whenever there is a discussion of UTs, or a preference displayed for anything other that ET, the closed-minded responses are what could be considered infantile.
Very early in this thread I predicted the outcome. When Mr. Bremmer posts, he is often barraged with negativity and outright hostility. That is exactly what has happened in this thread.
I would hardly consider a thread of this length to be "hit and run." This is not an exclusive forum and is open to all members of Piano World. Being active in forums other in this, Mwm has proved that his interest is other than hit and run and stirring up trouble. I believe his frustration was due to the attitudes expressed in many of the responses to his postings.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Marty, it seems to me the hostility began right here: The issue people, is that, when playing in an ensemble, the cello and piano in this case, he said it was so much easier to just play the music, make music, and not have to worry about tempering every bloody note to match ET.
I will never go back to ET.
So when is it going to change?
So when are you going to change?
I desire to foment a revolution. Join me. Don't be a coward and stick to your "Everybody demands ET" line. 95% of professional pianists can't tell the difference, and the ones who can, who still want ET, are not worth your time or mine to whom to listen. The OP walked into this carrying a torch. Of course the results were predictable.
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Yea Jim, I agree it was a little confrontational. Often I had considered posting and just enjoy the ride. It's seems that Mr. Silverwood has contracted a case of zealotry similar to Mwm.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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The guy was hot tempered, but he was at least prepared to engage with others' point of view.
Extremism is ugly in whatever form.
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The irony is that many European, if not American tuners, resisted the introduction of equal temperaments by piano manufacturers in the nineteenth century. Interesting, Withindale. Is this actually backed up by some factual evidence?
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Something that gets lost in these discussions is that there are many temperaments that follow the well tempering concepts at a much weaker level - sometimes within the levels that most aural tuners that think they are tuning ET actually set on pianos! (present company excluded, of course!)
In fact, when you think about the RPT exam, most pass without actually tuning ET, which by definition means that there can't be any inequality when using the interval tests and checks. So you see, this whole concept that "everyone expects ET, only ET works for performance" is just a hope and a dream in the real world of pianos...
Probably like always, there are some tuners that can get reeeeaaaly close to ET in their daily practice, but many, many more just aim for ET while claiming they accomplish the goal..
Ron Koval This is a very good post, Ron. You are absolutely correct. Any tuner who passes the PTG tuning exam with less than 100% is tuning something slighty other than pure ET. You have to also consider that for the test, the examinee has plenty of time, a well scaled piano, and only has to tune the center strings when being tested on temperament. Not exactly a real world situation. And then there are the small scaled instruments that will always defy ET by their very design - even if the temperament octave is divided into 12 perfectly even steps, the speed of the thirds will deviate significantly from ET, especially as you approach and cross the plain wire/wrapped wire transition. So, in most cases ET is only a target that we aim for. How close we come depends on many factors: skill, time, and the instrument. As many of the experienced technicians will tell you - octaves and unisons are what clients are most sensitive about. Especially unisons. This discussion reminds me of the experiments that were done with wine connoisseurs: When it comes right down to it, they can't reliably tell the difference between expensive wine and cheap wine. Fred Sturm's own experiences confirm this in regards to temperament. We like to think that we are special and can really appreciate the beauty of these lost temperaments. However, I believe it's mostly wistful thinking. The reality is, if nothing in your temperament is too dissonant, a complaint is highly unlikely if your octaves and unisons are solid. That's why the claims that such-and-such UT really opened up the piano to some amazing degree seem so strange to me. Like Ron points out, chances are their piano wasn't in perfect ET to begin with. I think the placebo effect is largely to blame. The claims that music in ET has "no color" sounds just plain nuts! If it were true, the connoisseurs would have an easy time identifying when performances are in ET or UT. However it has never been proven that they can.
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Watching this oft-repeated train-wreck reminds me of the banksters telling the "average folk" not to question what they did or why they did it as the economy collapsed - after all, they are the professionals with all the years of experience....
Sometimes it seems that "us professionals" forget that the tuning is for the music, musicians, and the audience - not for other techs!
Ron Koval
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Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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To tune a piano in anything BUT Equal Temperment is just plain irresponsible. You need to be able to play all the chords, in every single key. Real musicians demand that! Enough said
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...
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Ryan,
I'd like to address two points you have made.
I perform regularly in Eastern Europe. It has been interesting to discover that ET is not the standard in those cultures and countries. While I am unable to name a particular temperament, I can certainly hear that it is not ET. I can detect the differences in intervals as they fall within distinct keys. Yes, on occasion, it has been too extreme. I have never had a tuner/technician refuse to 'dial it back a bit' however.
I also believe that a trained musician, a "connoisseur," can easily identify a UT vs. an ET. I'm not so sure that it would also apply to the general audience of music lovers, however. In an A-B test, the difference would be heard. I'm not sure that "better" would be the word used in conclusion. "Preference" would be the categorization.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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To tune a piano in anything BUT Equal Temperment is just plain irresponsible. You need to be able to play all the chords, in every single key. Real musicians demand that! Enough said Where do you come up with this stuff?
Marty in Minnesota
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The word "DELUSIONAL" best describes those who would argue that any temperment other than Equal Temperment is the way to go. Try and earn a living, tuning pianos with that messed up thinking!
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Only a wannanbe piano tuner could be cheering for some lame, Mick mouse temperment
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The word "DELUSIONAL" best describes those who would argue that any temperment other than Equal Temperment is the way to go. Try and earn a living, tuning pianos with that messed up thinking! Try and earn a living as a pianist and see how far you get.
Marty in Minnesota
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I don't try and tell pianists how to do their job
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Only a wannanbe piano tuner could be cheering for some lame, Mick mouse temperment And you guys thought that Mwm was caustic? BTW Mr. Fowler, the term is "Mickey Mouse."
Marty in Minnesota
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I don't try and tell pianists how to do their job That's because you don't pay me. But, I'm the one who pays my tuners.
Marty in Minnesota
It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:34 PM
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Piano
by Gino2 - 04/17/24 02:23 PM
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