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hey guys, any advice for playing with singers?

I'll be doing some jams with one, just piano and voice. Usually I like to have drums and bass to back up the rhythm section. It can be hard to manage everything on piano.

And anyone with some good or bad stories about singers I want to hear them!

Just a few weeks ago at rehearsal we were playing a tune and after I specifically told the singer 2 verses, then bridge they mess it up and go straight to the bridge after 1...

I guess I was blind. I didn't notice the A in there. I thought it had no sharp keys. But I guess there's no escape.

This tune is useful though in woodshedding. Like I said, it makes you just listen because it is too crazy to continuously react chord by chord especially once you go fast.

Some thoughts for accompanying singers:
1. Keep a real steady pulse, regardless of what they do.
2. Keep the voicings simple. You have to be careful that add ons such as 9ths and 13ths don't class with the melody, so best to keep the voicings very vanilla.
3. Do fills if they have just one note in a bar, or if there is a bar with no melody. Singers fell very exposed if there is dead air.
4. As a general strategy, I used to worry about playing too much and staying out of the way of the singer. Then I listened to Ella's piano players on 12 Nights In Hollywood (one of my favorite vocal CDs) and the piano player is VERY active. I find that the singers I play with (very good non-pros) like an active accompaniment. So I know do more than I used to.
5. Give very clear chord changes when going to the bridge or some other key change. They like to hear that stuff very clearly.
6. When in doubt, tag the ending 3 times.

Wind,

I sent you a pm with a clip you might find interesting. It is as much for singers as it is for pianist. How to play with each other....

Nice! Let me add on #3 and #6. On dead space, singers love that you tinkle the keys. I'm deficient in this since it's not something you associate with jazz but they expect it on the dead space.

On the tags -- now after awhile this becomes automatic. You have to always assume some tag will occur. And if not, a Ritard. So you have to listen for it. You've got to know all the varieties. Last 4 tag, holding the the V like in There Will Never Be Another You, ii-V tag, etc.

So on the ending, while you're still developing skills, I would not force a chord until I know where it's going. This is typically where a clash occurs.

Singers also do the "Come in on the B Section After an A-Section solo". If you're backing a singer (rather than a jazz band singing the head -- two different concepts), then it's about the singer and the solo is very short. THEY WILL EXPECT to come back in on the B section.

Now in my case, I specifically tell my singers not to do that and do the head from the top because we have multiple soloists. But in my case, the singer is just an jazz instrument playing the head.

hey what do you mean by "tags"...like a coda before the verse starts up again?

I tend to add alot of extensions on my chords, esp for dominant 7, those #5,9, b5/9. Will have to tone that down alot.

I didn't know singers prefer you fill in all the dead space, I had heard you don't want to overplay, but that could be when they sing the melody.

Tag is the repeat of the ending. For example, they repeat the last 4 bars. So you have to be aware of all the different ways they might end it. At the beginning, it is useful to discuss that in advance. If you have a skilled rhythm section they will know.

One other thing is on the comping. You have to comp in an area that is different than the range of your singer's voice. So for male singers, comp high. Female singers, comp low. So be aware of the registers so there's a contrast.

Comp in the open spaces unless you're thinking rhythmically but you have to listen to the effect you're making with the singer.

If the singer is scatting, it would be nice if you can do a call and response.

I wouldn't worry about the voicings EXCEPT for the beginning of the tune. That's when they get lost. Once they are in, then you're ok. You will learn a lot once you do this a lot.

I know you hear a lot about great singers not wanting accompanists to step on their toes, but, I rarely have a singer complain that I play too much. Much more common for them to ask for help in the blank spots. This is particularly true if it's just the singer and the piano, with no drums or bass keeping the groove going.

Typically, if I've not rehearsed with a singer, it's good, in advance to say something like: "Last four bars intro, and tag the ending?" The keys are how you get into and out of a song. They usually want an intro, and while I think more singers should just end when the form ends, they usually want some drama at the end. Tagging is common, but if it's a ballad, a retard leading to a held note may be more appropriate. Some singers look for guidance from you.

SWEET swinging groove here! Herbie on piano.

I posted this on another thread, great version of "The Wind"by Stan Getz:


Keith Jarrett, Chet Baker and Fred Hersch have covered it as well. It's the inspiration of my nickname.

The whole "Lost Sessions" CD is one of my favorites. Kenny Barron's playing is sensational. Great version of Beatrice, a tune we talked about way, way back in this thread, I believe.

I posted what follows (beneath the dotted line) on another PW forum but there was a suggestion to re-post here. And thanks @Chris Bell .... who posted this link to the Bach Chorales, all of them: http://imslp.org/wiki/Chorale_Harmonisations,_BWV_1-438_(Bach,_Johann_Sebastian)

Beatrice: a gorgeous must-here version lives on the recently-released Fred Hersch & Julian Lage recording.

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There are many ways to think about chords in jazz. Most of the published ones show voicings as "things." Things like shells, A and B, inversions, etc.

But there's another way to chords through Bach and voice leading and counterpoint. I've posted an introduction on my blog:

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/09/jazz-piano-voice-leading-fred-hersch.html

- with examples from Bach and a link to a Fred Hersch masterclass in Downbeat where he talks about Bach chorales and voice leading.

Very excited that Fred Hersch is coming back to Chicago in November, and I'll hear Julian Lage with Gary Burton in a couple of weeks. I'm not sure I'll ever understand how to study a Bach Chorale and get that to improve my jazz playing.

I had an interesting discussion with a Barry Harris student and I finally got more clarity on the 6thDiminished scale.

Although the examples I've read seem to focus on the Tonic chord (adding a #5 on the minor and major tonic), apparently it's simpler than that. I was told to think about the DOMINANT and then look for the related Diminished chord.

In every dominant, the related diminished chord is found at 1-#9-#11-13 of that dominant. As would be expected, the diminished chord is the same for all the dominant substitutions a minor 3rd apart. That same diminished chord applies to all other degrees of the scale.

This diminished is used to add harmonic movement both in lines as well as chords.

Lucky you in Chicago jjo.
Re Bach chorale/voice leading style, it's certainly not easy. My opinion is that even 10 min a day adjusting your mind and ears to this new way of thinking and hearing is worth it.

I've been on Bach chorales for more than 4 months, on and off, have only learnt two of them, and am just beginning to use Bach principles in my improv.

custard: Do you just play the chorales and hope to internalize them, or do you harmonically analyze them? Do you take a voicing from a chorale and play it in other keys?

Jjo,

Seeing how there are 371 of them in all keys, I would think that playing in the written key is sufficient. Transposing on sight seems practically impossible, seeing how devil hard they are to play in the original key. And what would be the point of transposing to A, if the second chorale is already in A.
Also, it isn't really so much a voicing thing as it is a movement thing. So all the time you will have 4 voices.

So if you play the first one (in G), then your fingers might start to get use to the idea of movement in G. And also, as Fred H explains, your hands get used to passing certain voices around. Typically tenor going from LH to RH, back and forth.

As far as applying it, you can take a tune or section of tune in G, and try to apply the 4 voice concept. That's what FH does in his example. You might be totally unable to play the chorales since they are so hard, but yet able to apply the concept to your own thing, since all reading requirements are gone.

FH's idea that you can play one chorale a day isn't for your average sight reader ... 4 months for 2 of them sounds more like it

Chris posted a link to the chorales in the other thread btw.

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Hey jjo
Thanks for your great question.
I agree with Knotty.
Given the difficulty I've had with the chorales as a beginner, I haven't thought of doing them in other keys.
What's important though is analysing the principles so that you can apply them to whatever key you're soloing in.

My teacher said to me "Pick any chorale which interests you" and guided me through analysing it. I chose #70 "Gott sei gelobet..."as it was in C maj/A min.
From the 1st 3 notes, Principle 1 is "Bass walks from Root to 1st inversion".

Applying this to ATTYA, when you see Ab maj, you can practise walking it up from Ab to C. As Knotty said, think of the individual bass voice, don't think of a chord.

I'm about to start on my 3rd chorale and am happy to do whatever one you like. We could study a third of a phrase a day. Knotty can join in (this is a plea for help), of course Chris you are welcome, and Mark - would you mind checking up on me to see how I'm going ?
We could discuss it here.
Alternatively I could start a subthread and JW could link it.

Knotty: which chorale are you studying ?

I'm in. Why don't you let us know the chorale you're about to play, and let's start a thread on that. I studied classical for many years (played a lot of pretty tough Bach!), so these aren't out of my range at all. I've got the music at home and I'll start playing the same one.

I'm with jjo, a separate jazz thread is probably best.

I just started #1. Why not ?