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#2153171 - 09/18/13 05:06 PM Chopin's underrated and overrated works.
PrestoConFuocco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 92
Is it just me or does Chopin have some beautiful pieces that don't get as much credit as they deserve?
And vice versa - Some of his less interesting pieces get much more attention that they should.
I keep hearing people praising Chopin's nocturne op. 9 no. 2, but not once have I heard anyone say anything about op. 32 no. 2. Or people saying how much they love his 4th prelude, but never acknowledging the beauty of the first.
Or maybe everybody but me actually thinks that these pieces are better? What's up with that?
Please share your opinions on the subject, and add pieces by Chopin that you find over/under-rated smile
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"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.

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#2153174 - 09/18/13 05:13 PM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
fnork Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/01/04
Posts: 1704
Loc: Helsinki, finland
Underperformed:

Tarantella
Allegro de concert
Prelude op 45


I also think it's annoying that it's always like 5-10 mazurkas that get all of the attention and so many of them just remain neglected for no reason.
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#2153182 - 09/18/13 05:26 PM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
TheHappyMoron Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/06/10
Posts: 1166
Loc: UK
underrated:
op 64 nocturnes (i think it's 64 - i haven't thought about it for a while)
is the f minor fantasy underrated?
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#2153184 - 09/18/13 05:28 PM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: PrestoConFuocco
Is it just me or does Chopin have some beautiful pieces that don't get as much credit as they deserve?
And vice versa - Some of his less interesting pieces get much more attention that they should.
I keep hearing people praising Chopin's nocturne op. 9 no. 2, but not once have I heard anyone say anything about op. 32 no. 2. Or people saying how much they love his 4th prelude, but never acknowledging the beauty of the first.
Or maybe everybody but me actually thinks that these pieces are better? What's up with that?
The pieces you mentioned probably get more attention because, unlike many of Chopin's more difficult works, they are within reach and therefore played by what I would call advanced intermediates. I don't think it has much to do with people thinking they're better than other of his works.

I think Chopin's most neglected masterpiece is his Rondo a la Mazur Op. 5.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSEmtSyRhjY


Edited by pianoloverus (09/18/13 07:00 PM)

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#2153194 - 09/18/13 05:47 PM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
Cheeto717 Offline
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Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 696
Loc: Pennsylvania
I almost never hear the G major nocturne. I think it's one of the best nocturnes he wrote. I'm spellbound from the first bar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHD1-T4sbuc
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Working On:
Bach: Partita No. 6
Beethoven: Op. 26
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Chopin: Op. 10

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#2153200 - 09/18/13 05:52 PM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: fnork]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7466
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: fnork
Underperformed:

Tarantella
Allegro de concert
Prelude op 45

All within 3 opera of each other. laugh
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Polyphonist

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#2153202 - 09/18/13 05:53 PM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Cheeto717]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7466
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Cheeto717
I almost never hear the G major nocturne. I think it's one of the best nocturnes he wrote. I'm spellbound from the first bar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHD1-T4sbuc

Agreed. One of my favorites.
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Polyphonist

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#2153206 - 09/18/13 05:56 PM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
Franz Beebert Offline
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Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 355

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#2153410 - 09/19/13 12:04 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Franz Beebert]
outo Offline
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Registered: 08/02/12
Posts: 525
Loc: Finland
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

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#2153411 - 09/19/13 12:06 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: outo]
Polyphonist Online   content
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7466
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

The 3rd is too deep for most musicians to understand. The 2nd is a bit more straightforward.
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Polyphonist

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#2153508 - 09/19/13 05:17 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
PrestoConFuocco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 92
Alright, here we go:
fnork:
I think the op. 45 prelude is pretty popular (You can hear it quite often in piano competitions), but Chopin has two more preludes that weren't a part of the op. 28 that are way less known. But I agree about the tarantelle and allegro de concert (And the mazurkas).

TheHappyMoron:
Op. 64 is a set of waltzes, there are op. 62 nocturnes, maybe those are the ones you mean.
But the fantasie is definitely underrated in comparison to other of Chopin's major works - I think it's better than all of the scherzi and most of the ballades, but you still see much more people playing those other pieces :\

pianoloverus:
But what about pieces like the op. 66 fantasie-impromptu? or etude op. 10 no. 12?
Yeah, the rondo is very neglected. (I'd even say almost as much as his fugue in A minor)

Cheeto717:
I was hoping to hear somebody saying this! It's unquestionably one of his best nocturnes. The second theme is one of Chopin's melodic highlights. (Not to mention the ten thousand brilliant modulations it goes through)
That's actually the first piece I had in mind when I wrote this thread.
I actually like Arrau's rendition the most, it's so expressive.

Franz Beebert:
Haven't listened to this one in ages, it's one of those pieces youtube never suggests, you have to search it on your own :S
And it's funny listening to Horowitz speak.

outo:
You know, even though I like both the sonatas about equally, the first movement of the second sonata leaves such an impact on you everytime you hear it (I can actually still remember the first time I heard it), that it's not surprising that the second is considered better. Also, like somebody said, the third sonata is a bit too complex for most people to fall in love with it the first time they hear it, but the second captures you in a minute.
The biggest miss of all in my opinion is that most people haven't even heard about Chopin's first sonata, because it's outshadowed by it's older siblings. (It might not be as good as the other too, but it's still amazing and doesn't get half of the credit it deserves)
_________________________
"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.

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#2153537 - 09/19/13 07:21 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: outo]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19218
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.
In my experience at recitals and reading recital programs, the 3rd sonata is performed way more than the 2nd. The 2nd sonata's funeral march may be more familiar to the average person who only follows classical music a little. IMO both sonatas are complete masterpieces so it's wrong to say one is the real masterpiece.


Edited by pianoloverus (09/19/13 07:35 AM)

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#2153539 - 09/19/13 07:30 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19218
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: PrestoConFuocco
pianoloverus:
But what about pieces like the op. 66 fantasie-impromptu? or etude op. 10 no. 12?
Yeah, the rondo is very neglected. (I'd even say almost as much as his fugue in A minor)
The Chopin fugue is virtually never played but I certainly don't think that's because it's underrated.

The etude and FI are not overplayed except possibly by amateurs. So unless one constantly attends amateur recitals these two pieces are not overplayed. I think you're making the same mistake here as when you mentioned the Nocturne Op. 9 No.2 as being overplayed.

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#2153551 - 09/19/13 08:07 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: pianoloverus]
PrestoConFuocco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 92
I'm not really talking in terms of professional concerts, I'm talking in terms of what is popular - the pieces I mentioned are considered some of Chopin's most popular works, but when compared to other works they are not any more beautiful than other (Usually even less), so why are they much more famous and praised? (And I wish to emphasize that I'm not referring to what is played more often, that's a different subject.)
_________________________
"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.

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#2153579 - 09/19/13 08:58 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
Tim Adrianson Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/07/10
Posts: 1019
PCF -- just to cite a few more that have not as yet been mentioned:

1 I've always been fond of the "La ci Darem da Mano" variations -- it's just a nice showcase for Chopin's considerable virtuoso talents.

2 The Bolero I don't reckon as top-drawer Chopin, but you virtually never see that one.

3 A few of the posthumous Polonaises, particularly the one in B Flat, don't seem to get much attention.

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#2153584 - 09/19/13 09:08 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19218
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: PrestoConFuocco
I'm not really talking in terms of professional concerts, I'm talking in terms of what is popular - the pieces I mentioned are considered some of Chopin's most popular works, but when compared to other works they are not any more beautiful than other (Usually even less), so why are they much more famous and praised? (And I wish to emphasize that I'm not referring to what is played more often, that's a different subject.)
The popularity(I think you really need to define what you mean here)of some works like those you mentioned in the OP is probably because they are within the reach of non professional players. Thus they are more familiar to the general public and only in that sense more popular.

The general public is not familiar with most of Chopin's works and may very well only know pieces they have played. I think it's wrong to assume those who like Op.9 No.2 a lot are necessarily comparing it to all the other Nocturnes.

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#2153592 - 09/19/13 09:21 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
underrated works: 3 nouvelles etudes, B.130

overrated works: Fantasie-Impromptu

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#2153601 - 09/19/13 09:25 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
La_plus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/13
Posts: 32
Overrated: Everything by him that is popular.

Underrated: Everything by him that is not popular.

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#2153605 - 09/19/13 09:31 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: La_plus]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: La_plus
Overrated: Everything by him that is popular.

Underrated: Everything by him that is not popular.


That's a too simplified view. Some of his popular works deserve the popularity without any question. Some of his unpopular works are not that great and deserve the un-popularity.

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#2153612 - 09/19/13 09:39 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Alan Lai]
La_plus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/13
Posts: 32
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: La_plus
Overrated: Everything by him that is popular.

Underrated: Everything by him that is not popular.


That's a too simplified view. Some of his popular works deserve the popularity without any question. Some of his unpopular works are not that great and deserve the un-popularity.


I think it's a matter of what one considers popular. I meant his mainstream works. Pieces like Fantaisie Impromptu, the Minute Waltz and the famous early E-flat Nocturne. These works are overrated, while his relatively unpopular works, for the most part, deserve just as much recognition if not more.

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#2153627 - 09/19/13 10:07 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: La_plus]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19218
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: La_plus
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: La_plus
Overrated: Everything by him that is popular.

Underrated: Everything by him that is not popular.


That's a too simplified view. Some of his popular works deserve the popularity without any question. Some of his unpopular works are not that great and deserve the un-popularity.


I think it's a matter of what one considers popular. I meant his mainstream works. Pieces like Fantaisie Impromptu, the Minute Waltz and the famous early E-flat Nocturne. These works are overrated, while his relatively unpopular works, for the most part, deserve just as much recognition if not more.
Popular is not the same as overrated. The popular works are more popular(in the sense of being more well known or familiar)because they are within the reach of non professionals and thus studied more frequently.

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#2153645 - 09/19/13 10:27 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: pianoloverus]
La_plus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/13
Posts: 32
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Popular is not the same as overrated.


Of course it's not. Something being overrated is an opinion. Being popular and being overrated are two mutually exclusive things; one does not rely on the other to be true. It just happens to be my opinion that the few works mentioned above are over-popular, which would be the same as to say they are overrated.

Quote:
The popular works are more popular(in the sense of being more well known or familiar)because they are within the reach of non professionals and thus studied more frequently.


And how exactly is everything else not "within the reach" of non-professionals?

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#2153665 - 09/19/13 11:00 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: fnork]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: fnork
Underperformed:

Prelude op 45



YES I LOVE THIS PIECE!!!
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2153667 - 09/19/13 11:01 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Polyphonist]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

The 3rd is too deep for most musicians to understand. The 2nd is a bit more straightforward.


I wouldn't even say the 2nd is more popular than the 3rd. If anything I've always heard the 3rd played WAY more than the 2nd!

Also, I wouldn't call one of them deeper than the other. Really, really wouldn't.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2153673 - 09/19/13 11:05 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Pogorelich.]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7466
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

The 3rd is too deep for most musicians to understand. The 2nd is a bit more straightforward.


I wouldn't even say the 2nd is more popular than the 3rd. If anything I've always heard the 3rd played WAY more than the 2nd!

Also, I wouldn't call one of them deeper than the other. Really, really wouldn't.

You think the 3rd is played more than the 2nd? Not in my experience.

A Youtube search on "chopin piano sonata" has 6 out of the first 7 professional recordings as the 2nd.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2153677 - 09/19/13 11:09 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Polyphonist]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4526
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

The 3rd is too deep for most musicians to understand. The 2nd is a bit more straightforward.


I wouldn't even say the 2nd is more popular than the 3rd. If anything I've always heard the 3rd played WAY more than the 2nd!

Also, I wouldn't call one of them deeper than the other. Really, really wouldn't.

You think the 3rd is played more than the 2nd? Not in my experience.

A Youtube search on "chopin piano sonata" has 6 out of the first 7 professional recordings as the 2nd.


After 10 years of living here, have only heard the 2nd played in ONE masterclass and ZERO concerts/recitals. The 3rd, however... I lost count.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2153678 - 09/19/13 11:11 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
La_plus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/18/13
Posts: 32
I agree with Polyphonist. The 2nd is far more popular.

I think with Chopin, you will find that the average person will gravitate towards the early work more because it's easier to listen to for them. They're missing out.

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#2153679 - 09/19/13 11:11 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Pogorelich.]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7466
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: outo
Not underrated, but I never get why his 2nd sonata is more popular than the 3rd, which is the real masterpiece.

The 3rd is too deep for most musicians to understand. The 2nd is a bit more straightforward.


I wouldn't even say the 2nd is more popular than the 3rd. If anything I've always heard the 3rd played WAY more than the 2nd!

Also, I wouldn't call one of them deeper than the other. Really, really wouldn't.

You think the 3rd is played more than the 2nd? Not in my experience.

A Youtube search on "chopin piano sonata" has 6 out of the first 7 professional recordings as the 2nd.


After 10 years of living here, have only heard the 2nd played in ONE masterclass and ZERO concerts/recitals. The 3rd, however... I lost count.

I've definitely heard the 2nd performed here more than the 3rd. Just counting masterclasses, I've heard it 3 or 4 times (the 1st movement), and the 3rd 1 or 2.
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Polyphonist

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#2153681 - 09/19/13 11:14 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: Pogorelich.]
Damon Online   happy
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6062
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.


After 10 years of living here, have only heard the 2nd played in ONE masterclass and ZERO concerts/recitals. The 3rd, however... I lost count.


Yes, but you are living in the past.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2153686 - 09/19/13 11:17 AM Re: Chopin's underrated and overrated works. [Re: La_plus]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19218
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: La_plus
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
Popular is not the same as overrated.


Of course it's not. Something being overrated is an opinion. Being popular and being overrated are two mutually exclusive things; one does not rely on the other to be true. It just happens to be my opinion that the few works mentioned above are over-popular, which would be the same as to say they are overrated.
Popular is not the same as overrated but over popular is the same as overrated?
Originally Posted By: La_plus
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
The popular works are more popular(in the sense of being more well known or familiar)because they are within the reach of non professionals and thus studied more frequently.


And how exactly is everything else not "within the reach" of non-professionals?
Technically too difficult.

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