Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
Latest Pianoteq add-on instrument: U4 upright piano
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
PianoSupplies.com (150)
Piano Accessories Music Related Gifts Piano Tuning Equipment Piano Moving Equipment
We now offer Gift Certificates in our online store!
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Piano
Quick Links to Useful Stuff
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano Accessories
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#2153070 - 09/18/13 03:25 PM winding going above the nut
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
I've installed my £300 pounds worth of iron wound strings (26 of them). 4 broke. The winding, as Robert Wornum planned it, goes over the nut pin and just stops before the tuning pin. My maker did a fantastic job - everything just the right length. Should I have greased the nut pin? I can't help thinking the .8mm iron core was worked too hard pulling the wound section over the nut pin. Any ideas? Thanks.

Top
(ad PTG 568) Win a Year Journal Subscription
PTG 57th Annual Convention - Atlanta
#2153101 - 09/18/13 03:51 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
"Nut pin" = agraffe?

confused
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

Top
#2153117 - 09/18/13 04:02 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
I suppose. It is just a pin though. The piano's a 170 year old upright.

Top
#2153123 - 09/18/13 04:07 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
I think a photo of what you're talking about would be helpful. What I'm imagining is the winding going over the bearing bar and terminating between the bar and the tuning pin. Is that correct?
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

Top
#2153126 - 09/18/13 04:09 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 347
Loc: UK
Take a look at some of the photographs placed on this "Pinao World" and you will see where the winding on whraped striings is supposed to end.
Also take a look on a site whoich sells piano parts and you could make a sketch or download the page so that you can learn the names of the various parts.

Top
#2153128 - 09/18/13 04:13 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Here's some I put on months ago - exactly how the maker wanted it:


Top
#2153201 - 09/18/13 05:53 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Okay, I see what you're talking about.

I've never seen an instance where windings extended this far.

Do not use any kind of petroleum-based or otherwise wet lubricant on it. It will ruin the piano.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

Top
#2153204 - 09/18/13 05:55 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21307
Loc: Oakland
Just goes to show the makers were not always right.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2153211 - 09/18/13 06:07 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
By that photo, it is very odd. There are some plain wire core, then some old strings that look like they were done wrong, then some new strings that look like they were done wrong.

I'd hate to have to try to tune it.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

Top
#2153278 - 09/18/13 07:16 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1914
Loc: Philadelphia area
I've never seen windings above the agraffes. How old is the piano? Are the old strings in the photo originals?

Top
#2153301 - 09/18/13 07:55 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: BDB]
David Jenson Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2042
Loc: Maine
Originally Posted By: BDB
Just goes to show the makers were not always right.
And how! I'm glad that piano is across the "Pond" and I won't be called to tune it.
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

Top
#2153313 - 09/18/13 08:21 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
Bob Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/01/01
Posts: 3834
I can't imagine it was planned that way. The windings should stop before the pins. Only the core wire should contact the pin, and then go around the tuning pin. There are two ways to make this piano tuneable -

1. Replace the strings with ones of proper size (send the maker a paper template showing bearing points and hitch pin locations)

2. Remove each string from the tuning pin and unwind enough outer coil so it ends 1/2" below the pin. Then re-install the string.

Are these the original pins? Are they tight?

You will continue to break strings or the outer coil will separate at the pin and buzz unless this piano is strung correctly.
_________________________
www.PianoTunerOrlando.com






Top
#2153319 - 09/18/13 08:34 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
Silverwood Pianos Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/10/08
Posts: 4187
Loc: Vancouver B. C. Canada

Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
I suppose. It is just a pin though. The piano's a 170 year old upright.


1852 Broadwood windings
_________________________
Dan Silverwood
www.silverwoodpianos.com
http://silverwoodpianos.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/SilverwoodPianosDotCom
"If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."

Top
#2153332 - 09/18/13 08:59 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: Silverwood Pianos]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Silverwood Pianos

Originally Posted By: chopin_r_us
I suppose. It is just a pin though. The piano's a 170 year old upright.


1852 Broadwood windings


Wow. That seems crazy to me. How do those strings even move?
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

Top
#2153338 - 09/18/13 09:09 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21307
Loc: Oakland
Poorly!

This is something that is missing from all of those early temperament discussions. The instruments in those days did not tune as well as modern ones.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2153351 - 09/18/13 10:10 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: BDB
Poorly!

This is something that is missing from all of those early temperament discussions. The instruments in those days did not tune as well as modern ones.


Oh yeah!

laugh
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

Top
#2153434 - 09/19/13 01:05 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3524
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Sounds like an expensive proposition to purchase another full set of strings. Wouldn't it be worth a try to take them off and wind off some of the winding to the appropriate length? He might break a few more in the process, but once the surviving strings are all on, he can special order the ones that are missing. Worth a go?

Top
#2153473 - 09/19/13 03:30 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7275
Loc: France
I believe the friction was lower intially with the wood rubbed with graphite and not marred (and the pin as well.

burnishing and graphiting (hard pencil) may help a little, , may be inserting a small strip of "parchemin" (French) at the moment the string is pulled, to protect it, then pull it out, if well positionned may be it will pull out easily enough, if not, lower a little the tension.

the becket are not cut after installation, but the lenght evaluated and the becket installed flush in the pin. Others may have told you that yet.
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2153842 - 09/19/13 02:42 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: Olek]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Thanks for the comments folks. I'll certainly do the graphite and maybe the parchment. The problem may be Malcolm Rose B is not up to the job. In this 1834 review he does mention new Improved Steel:


Top
#2153947 - 09/19/13 05:35 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7275
Loc: France


interesting document, thanks for posting it .

I cannot really help there but yes piano makers begin to use steel -that year (1837-38, I heard)

you need to measure the speaking lengths to check if a steel can be used. together with the tension of the basses, that may be very low.


Edited by Olek (09/19/13 05:36 PM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2155663 - 09/22/13 05:39 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
Goof Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/05/12
Posts: 347
Loc: UK
Do yourself a favour: go to the Fincock piano museum in Kent where you can see many old, and some very old, pianos. I feel certain there will not be one where the winding of a string goes over the capo bar.
Whilst there ask the way to the nearby "farm" where a Mr Richard Dain, a retired mechanical engineer, puts together pianos which have sound boards made of carbon fiber.
Also go to U-tube and look for an item named " A Pianos Pin by Ronan O'Hora". He is playing Mozart's Sonata K570 II Adagio. The videos shows pins throughout the ages AND at the end your type of pins (old) in situ with the CORRECT arrangement !!!!
I do hope you get it right as I'd like to hear how the instrument sounds.


Edited by Goof (09/23/13 06:39 AM)

Top
#2155935 - 09/23/13 02:33 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: Goof]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
I know one of the major restorers in this country - he's said it's unusual not to have the winding going round the pin but that is what Mr Wornum wanted.

The sounding length of the bottom iron wound G# (g#2 according to this website http://www.claviersbaroques.com/CBExpertHelmholtzNotation.htm ) is 70cm. The top iron wound one, g# (g#3), is 61.5cm. They are very high for wound strings - all cores are .8mm. That's why I initial thought to plain string at least the top group (I notice on Pleyel's Pianino he plain strings down to B (b2).

Top
#2155941 - 09/23/13 02:45 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21307
Loc: Oakland
It may or may not be what Wornum wanted, but it seems to be what he got. Even now, piano makers make mistakes.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

Top
#2155942 - 09/23/13 02:50 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: BDB]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Well how about this - every string from bottom to top (F1 (FF) to F7 (f'''')) has the same length - 92.5 cms.

Top
#2155977 - 09/23/13 05:54 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
I remember an Érard grand with covered wire over the bridge (oversize bridge pins) and through the oversize agraffe with oversize holes I didn't check the interior configuration of the agraffe holes. Probably quite a broad curve.
I didn't know it's age and the covered strings were all black with oxidisation so I didn't know what metal they were covered with.
I only saw it briefly.

It was being tuned regularly and slightly above 440. . The tuner expressed no problems with it, this was in the days when we were tuning all kinds of weird and wonderful old pianos that had been tuned on contract for many generations.
This was in the 1960's and it was all original then with no broken strings. It was just the core wire on the tuning pins. Must have been well over 100 years old then.

I have access to an old Broadwood square, 1804, I think. I know the bass strings are spiral wound with a 1/4" or so step to the spiral. I am sure the strings are wound as they go over the bridges but I will check.

I remember something about continuing the winding past the termination points reduced inharmonicity, perhaps our experts could address this matter.


Edited by rxd (09/23/13 05:57 AM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2155988 - 09/23/13 06:24 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7275
Loc: France
I have seen that winding "often" on instruments of a certain era - all wooden frames
Also on some square pianos (European ones)

I am not sure the winding go on the bridge too, more probably no.


Edited by Olek (09/23/13 07:09 AM)
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

Top
#2156018 - 09/23/13 08:23 AM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
I hadn't thought it unusual that the winding goes over the bridge:



but quite right, on my Pleyel it doesn't.

Top
#2156187 - 09/23/13 01:28 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
This picture from another thread that has covered strings going over the bridge. It's quite common in ancient pianos. I'm still wondering how successful continuous winding like this is in reducing inharmonicity. Any experts on covered string inharmonicity?



Edited by rxd (09/23/13 01:36 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2156374 - 09/23/13 06:58 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: chopin_r_us]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1914
Loc: Philadelphia area
Are the strings original?

Top
#2156417 - 09/23/13 08:18 PM Re: winding going above the nut [Re: Dave B]
chopin_r_us Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 874
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: Dave B
Are the strings original?
On mine they are. I'm having to replace from G#2 to G#3 as they are iron wound and sound tubby from rust.

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
Our latest Issue is available now...
Piano News - Interesting & Fun Piano Related Newsletter! (free)
-------------------
HOW TO POST PICTURES on the Piano Forums
-------------------
Sharing is Caring!
About the Buttons
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Seiler Pianos
Sheet Music
(PW is an affiliate)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Who's Online
109 registered (aesop, AmateurBob, anotherscott, Acevle, 36251, 40 invisible), 1311 Guests and 22 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Stats
75609 Members
42 Forums
156346 Topics
2296293 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Debussy's opinion of other composers
by phantomFive
5 minutes 3 seconds ago
Ivory v. Plastic Questions
by Retsacnal
Yesterday at 11:50 PM
The worst student in your studio
by Cardinal201
Yesterday at 11:43 PM
Piano Movers
by DancerJ
Yesterday at 11:16 PM
Yamaha P-85 closer to a Grand Piano action than any Upright!
by Paul678
Yesterday at 07:22 PM
(ads by Google)

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission