Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
Who's Online
107 registered (ajames, accordeur, anamnesis, Alegretto, 36251, Almaviva, 33 invisible), 1410 Guests and 18 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Topic Options
#2153545 - 09/19/13 07:53 AM When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie?
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2091
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Withindale: Upright after touch vs checking
Can we try to clarify when the hammer leaves the jack?

Earlier in this thread Isaac said he recalled Pfeiffer finding that strong blows above mF were throwing the hammer out of contact with the jack before half blow on vertical pianos, but the tests were with a weight in free fall and Isaac thought a competent pianist will use some suppleness to keep contact longer with the hammer.

Supposing that the pianist succeeds in keeping the jack in contact with the hammer until it hits the button, what happens then? Would a high speed video show the hammer carrying on and and hitting the strings or remaining in contact with the jack until set-off?

This question arose in the Upright after touch vs checking thread.

During playing, when the jack hits the button does the hammer:

(a) leave the jack and carry on at the same speed to hit the strings,
(b) stay in contact with the jack until let off and then hit the strings under its own inertia, or
(c) do something else?

Are there any high speed movies of the jack and hammer butt interaction that show what happens in vertical pianos?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#2153594 - 09/19/13 09:22 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Never, they live together and have numerous child's.

Love, it is...
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2153613 - 09/19/13 09:40 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
UnrightTooner Online   content
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4992
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Ian,

You could say that the jack leaves the butt, because that is the part that is tripped. But really it depends on how you play. Did you ever just tap the keys, without pressing them down, hard enough to make a sound? With the right control, the hammer hits the string without the damper moving. It sounds sort of like a harp. There's probably an obscure term for it.

You can also deliberately make a note double-strike by not press down fully, by stopping when you feel the point of let off. The jack never trips, so in that case, the butt does leave the jack, but finds it's way back again like a bad check. (Oh, the puns...)


Edited by UnrightTooner (09/19/13 09:46 AM)
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2153636 - 09/19/13 10:15 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: Withindale: Upright after touch vs checking
Can we try to clarify when the hammer leaves the jack?

Earlier in this thread Isaac said he recalled Pfeiffer finding that strong blows above mF were throwing the hammer out of contact with the jack before half blow on vertical pianos, but the tests were with a weight in free fall and Isaac thought a competent pianist will use some suppleness to keep contact longer with the hammer.

Supposing that the pianist succeeds in keeping the jack in contact with the hammer until it hits the button, what happens then? Would a high speed video show the hammer carrying on and and hitting the strings or remaining in contact with the jack until set-off?

This question arose in the Upright after touch vs checking thread.

During playing, when the jack hits the button does the hammer:

(a) leave the jack and carry on at the same speed to hit the strings,
(b) stay in contact with the jack until let off and then hit the strings under its own inertia, or
(c) do something else?

Are there any high speed movies of the jack and hammer butt interaction that show what happens in vertical pianos?


See my reply in the other thread. You seem to have invented a new step in the upright action - the time between the jack hitting the letoff button, and the time when letoff happens. As soon as the jack heel touches the letoff button, it starts to decelerate along the vector the hammer is travelling, and so the hammer leaves the butt(edit:jack!) under its own inertia. This happens immediately, there isn't a transition. As soon as the jack is no longer accelerating at the same speed in the same direction as the hammer butt is travelling, the two separate.


Edited by Phil D (09/19/13 12:53 PM)
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

Top
#2153683 - 09/19/13 11:14 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Phil D]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2091
Loc: Suffolk, England
Phil

Yes, I'd agree with what you say but let off seems to mean different things at different times. Hence any confusion.

Mark Cerisano wrote that, during regulation, let off is said to happen at the exact time when the hammer stops going forward and begins moving back. That is a pretty small window.

You say letoff happens, during playing, as soon as the jack heel touches the letoff button.

Mario Igrec says it is, The highest point (closest to the strings) of the hammer travel supported by the jack. Also referred to as “set off.” This definition applies to all cases including let off before the jack reaches the let off button.

Good fun.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2153699 - 09/19/13 11:30 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
There may be a little added re accélération during the jack tripping, because of the surface of the jack making it a little taller (Assuming the initial contact is not at the edge of the jack, which is not always) . It can only work if the action is in good condition and at certain type of playing.

Practically, the propulsion from the jack is so efficient and fast that the hammer tend to go first. And that is what we try to avoid when playing, so the regulation is supposed to provide the pianist enough references, tactile feed back, so he can imagine how to play to keep control.

The condition of the cushion and butt leather make the touch more or less dynamic.

That jack lengthening thing is more perceived on grands where the jack participates to the accélération.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2153756 - 09/19/13 12:37 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Tuneless Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/13
Posts: 206
Loc: AZ, USA
Oh gosh folks, can't you use the correct terminology? The hammer can not leave the butt, they are glued together, jacks don't hit let off buttons, and there is no such thing as a jack heel (a wippen heel, yes), No wonder we beginners are having a hard time and are confused. Please reread your posts before sending them and look for these misnomers and correct them. Cynthia
_________________________
Cynthia

Roland FP-50
Conover Upright, 1888/9, but a very low mileage piano. http://www.pbase.com/schnitz/conover_upright_piano__1888_or_9 .
Tuneless = Don't play piano(yet) and couldn't tune a guitar, much less a piano.
I'm technically very capable. I love my piano and love tinkering with it.

Top
#2153767 - 09/19/13 12:57 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Sorry Cynthia, I'm a bit loose with my terminology. I've put in an edit, the hammer leaving the butt was a mistake. But I'm afraid terminology does differ - the jack heel is just what I call the part of the jack that contacts the letoff button. I'd hope that was evident from the context.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

Top
#2153769 - 09/19/13 01:06 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Olek]
Phil D Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/15/10
Posts: 551
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
There may be a little added re accélération during the jack tripping, because of the surface of the jack making it a little taller (Assuming the initial contact is not at the edge of the jack, which is not always) . It can only work if the action is in good condition and at certain type of playing.


Just an aside, but wouldn't this be more likely to happen on more worn actions - if the jack rests further around the curve of the butt felt because the rest felt is compacted, or if the leather at the contact point with the jack is worn, making the curve more pronounced.
This is what is happening on my piano, anyway. I need to refelt as it is impossible to get the letoff anywhere near where it should be without causing bobbling and all sorts of weird things.
_________________________
Phil Dickson
The Cycling Piano Tuner

Top
#2153820 - 09/19/13 02:14 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2091
Loc: Suffolk, England
Hello Cynthia,

Jeff's description of the jack leaving the butt was apt but who, apart from your good self, wrote the hammer leaves the butt?

Some people refer to the jack toe so why not a heel too? Both are more descriptive than jack tender.

What do you suggest instead of the jack hits the button? The meaning is clear enough but is engages with, comes into contact with, or bumps into better? Trips turned out to be ambiguous. Reaches does not have quite the right connotation. I'm stumped for a better word but I am sure there must be one.

PS I see Phil stuck the leather back on the butt while this post was in gestation.


Edited by Withindale (09/19/13 02:19 PM)
Edit Reason: PS
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2153834 - 09/19/13 02:33 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2091
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Withindale
I'm stumped for a better word [than hit] but I am sure there must be one.

Hit will do. It's an Old Norse word meaning light upon and meet with.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2153956 - 09/19/13 05:46 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Phil D]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Phil D
Originally Posted By: Olek
There may be a little added re accélération during the jack tripping, because of the surface of the jack making it a little taller (Assuming the initial contact is not at the edge of the jack, which is not always) . It can only work if the action is in good condition and at certain type of playing.


Just an aside, but wouldn't this be more likely to happen on more worn actions - if the jack rests further around the curve of the butt felt because the rest felt is compacted, or if the leather at the contact point with the jack is worn, making the curve more pronounced.
This is what is happening on my piano, anyway. I need to refelt as it is impossible to get the letoff anywhere near where it should be without causing bobbling and all sorts of weird things.


you are right, of course, as when using the wrong too thin cushion, it add much friction as the jack is pressed more firmy on the cushion and have to make all that trip back.

I am unsure on uprights if the same thing as on the grands can be noticed, if it exists it must be really small.

In the end the force coming from the jack center pin probably apply at the angle of the jack, a little distributed toward the center of the jack surface. I'll look at that more closely...
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2154186 - 09/20/13 03:28 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2071
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Mario Igrec says it is, The highest point (closest to the strings) of the hammer travel supported by the jack. Also referred to as “set off.” This definition applies to all cases including let off before the jack reaches the let off button.


(my own emphasis)

???

Let-off cannot happen before the jack (tender) reaches the let-off button.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

Top
#2154195 - 09/20/13 04:07 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
it happens when the leather is really worn with a nick, that the acceleration is so immediate that the hammer leaves the buckskin even before the jack touch the button.

but then the jack of course touch the button, and it happens the jack finally reach the hammer knuckle, that make a particularely displeasing touch at certain regimes.

I find that situation clearly on "silent" pianos where the shank stopping rail was stopping the shank too early (because let off have moved nearer the strings in time, with the letoff button cloth compression probably.

create a double strike even BEFORE letoff, sometime heard, sometime only perceived as a defect in hammer propulsion.

may be that is what happens to Ian , and he solved with that close checking distance, that avoid bobbling.

may be too much afterouch bring back some smoothness for the bottom of the key.

ideally good front punchings, good leathers, good backchecks, the action is checking naturally with the key bottoming even when playing very softly.

the checker and counter part are not always lining , the checking distance from the strings matters more.


Edited by Olek (09/20/13 04:25 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2154201 - 09/20/13 04:36 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Mark R.]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2091
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Mario Igrec says it [let off] is, The highest point (closest to the strings) of the hammer travel supported by the jack. Also referred to as “set off.” This definition applies to all cases including let off before the jack reaches the let off button.


(my own emphasis)

???

Let-off cannot happen before the jack (tender) reaches the let-off button.


Two examples where let off, conforming to that definition, occurs before the jack reaches the button:

Originally Posted By: UnrightTooner
Ian, You could say that the jack leaves the butt, because that is the part that is tripped. But really it depends on how you play. Did you ever just tap the keys, without pressing them down, hard enough to make a sound? With the right control, the hammer hits the string without the damper moving. It sounds sort of like a harp. There's probably an obscure term for it.


Originally Posted By: Olek
Strong blows, above mF y, where throwing the hammer out of contact with the jack soon, before half blow if memory serves, on the 1917 xx actions tested by Pfeiffer. That is, on vertical pianos ..
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2154208 - 09/20/13 05:02 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
you play with words, the usual meaning is with the jack complete motion (and at slow speed as during regulation)

the regulation is generally envisaged at that not realistic speed , then tested for repetition and touch, and , with experience and following the same logical regulation directions, the regulating tech finally make the relation between the events, and know how tweaking may help with action condition or sometime design.

The best shortcut I know is just to decide for a certain hammer travel in regard of an appropriate key dip, something that gives a "normal" key dip sensation.
small only when the action was designed for , large as well, this is where experience plays a role, when making samples the tech see when all conditions are obtained.

to get an even aftertouch sensation the jack distance from the butt have to be precise all along the keyboard. I find it more efficient to be attentive to the hammer travel distance first, there are "standards", standard for a given model, and what is optimal for a given piano. travel distance can be only slightly modified with shims below the rail, and choice for the rest rail cloth (while the cloth are yet glued on a new action).

once a good hammer travel is obtained (and evened along the rest rail) one have a decent keydip and a good hammer travel distance, that give together a strong basis for the regulation.







Edited by Olek (09/20/13 05:03 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2154209 - 09/20/13 05:14 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2091
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
you play with words, the usual meaning is with the jack complete motion (and at slow speed as during regulation)

You are right. I started this thread because let off means different things to different people (and sometimes the same person) at different times. It can become difficult to understand what people mean and easy to misunderstand what they say.

Sometimes one wonders if any of us know what we are talking about ... but I shouldn't say that in case Kees encourages a horde of natives to come after me with with pitch forks and mud pies!

Tuneless was right about terminology and I will write a post about it later when I have some time.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2154292 - 09/20/13 09:14 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2091
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
The best shortcut I know is just to decide for a certain hammer travel in regard of an appropriate key dip, something that gives a "normal" key dip sensation...to get an even aftertouch sensation the jack distance from the butt have to be precise all along the keyboard.

That's all absolutely fine, Isaac. It's logical, practical and it works.

Back to words. Confusion sets in with three of them: let off, escapement, aftertouch.

One way to sort them out is to look at things from the jack's point of view:

A Key pressed (end of lost motion)
B Let off (jack toe hits the let off button)
C Maximum hammer travel (set during regulation)
D Maximum jack movement (maximum key dip)

The main source of confusion is that B and C are both called let off, usually by different people, sometimes by the same person at different times.

This seems simplest:

- Let Off: B when the jack hits the let off button.

- Escape: starts at B and ends at D when the key bottoms out on the cushion.

- Aftertouch: the amount of key travel after let off, from B to D.

All these allow C to be what it is, the point of maximum hammer travel set during regulation.

Nothing new. Rant over.

Thanks to Phil D, Mario Igrec, Mark R.


Edited by Withindale (09/21/13 01:47 AM)
Edit Reason: Revision
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2154523 - 09/20/13 02:52 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Tuneless Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/13
Posts: 206
Loc: AZ, USA
I see I was wrong about the heel being part of the wippen, it is part of the jack. Sorry about that one.


I notice that the feel of after touch, after the jack escapes from the butt, is the feel of a 'free fall' of the key the remaining distance to the cushion. This is not important, but I don't think anyone so far has described this feeling as such.
_________________________
Cynthia

Roland FP-50
Conover Upright, 1888/9, but a very low mileage piano. http://www.pbase.com/schnitz/conover_upright_piano__1888_or_9 .
Tuneless = Don't play piano(yet) and couldn't tune a guitar, much less a piano.
I'm technically very capable. I love my piano and love tinkering with it.

Top
#2154579 - 09/20/13 03:55 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
That is the feeling of the release of the inner stress of the action. If you feel a "free fall" there is too much aftertouch...
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2154850 - 09/21/13 01:55 AM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Tuneless]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2091
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Tuneless
... the feel of a 'free fall' of the key the remaining distance to the cushion. This is not important ...

I think it is important. Add front pin punchings to reduce dip on a sample key or two. This may make all the difference to your enjoyment of the piano.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2155010 - 09/21/13 12:42 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Tuneless Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/17/13
Posts: 206
Loc: AZ, USA
I am only just beginning to learn to play piano and have only finally gotten the action back in the piano after major rework. What with pulling the action in and out to get things the way they should be and my own inexperience with the piano, it is just to early to be changing the key dip. The fellow that refurbished the piano 30 years ago did a fairly nice job on replacing the under key felts/punchings, so I am leaving any adjustment to that for sometime well down the line of repairs. These felts have seen almost no wear, and there has been no moth damage.
_________________________
Cynthia

Roland FP-50
Conover Upright, 1888/9, but a very low mileage piano. http://www.pbase.com/schnitz/conover_upright_piano__1888_or_9 .
Tuneless = Don't play piano(yet) and couldn't tune a guitar, much less a piano.
I'm technically very capable. I love my piano and love tinkering with it.

Top
#2155052 - 09/21/13 02:39 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2091
Loc: Suffolk, England
I am in much the same boat as you but my stickers are shorter and 30 years younger.

It took me ages to get round to adjusting the key dip because I had thought the keyboard was the one part of the piano I didn't need to touch. So I fully understand how you feel.

In the end I begged some punchings from our tuner, popped some on top of the cushion for a few test keys, added more and took some out until I found the best dip, and voilà. I wish I'd done it much sooner because playability was completely transformed.

The pros here will be able to give you a much better explanation than me.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

Top
#2155168 - 09/21/13 06:09 PM Re: When do hammers leave the jacks in upright pianos? Movie? [Re: Withindale]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2471
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
"When do hammers leave the jacks on an upright piano?"

When the jacks turn out to be total wankers, that's when!
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

Top

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!
The December Free Piano Newsletter
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
Interesting books about the piano, pianists, piano history, biographies, memoirs and more!
(ad) Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
Yamaha CP Music Rest Promo
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Getting Stains Out Of Ivory Piano Keys
by Modern Conner
12/27/14 08:51 PM
if you like the melodica, jason collier, or snarky puppy ...
by Mark Polishook
12/27/14 08:27 PM
Casio PX-5S Pro Stage Piano and Yamaha P105...
by D7K
12/27/14 06:32 PM
Brand New Grand - how much "damage" is OK?
by Adler
12/27/14 06:26 PM
Why did my piano come with a chair rather than a bench?
by George Palmer
12/27/14 04:46 PM
Forum Stats
77460 Members
42 Forums
160173 Topics
2352182 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission