Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Piano Forum At what point does a Steinway become a "Steinwas"?

Joe, In summary I suppose you are saying, "Once a Steinway, always a Steinway".

Googling for rim manufacture in Hamburg I came up with this video and this New York Times article from 2003.

There was also this video of Emmanuel Ax playing both NY and Hamburg D's from the Carnegie Hall instrument bank.

Ten years ago Hamburg seemed to think New York had some way to go catch up. I imagine all this has been mentioned before but here is a link to the archive:

http://www.nytimes.com/ref/nyregion/PIANO_INDEX.html

I don't think I have ever seen anything other than maple in a NY Steinway rim. I have serviced and rebuilt over a 1,000 different ones in my 40 plus year career.

[quote=Ed McMorrow, RPT]I don't think I have ever seen anything other than maple in a NY Steinway rim. I have serviced and rebuilt over a 1,000 different ones in my 40 plus year career.[/quo

Me neither. I have placed a 1915 rim, sans sound board, against the fence. It took almost 5 years for the laminations to begin separating, (in the rain and weather). They were all maple. I don't remember seeing anything in the Steinway lumber yard that would have been sufficient quantities of beech for rim use when I got a behind the scenes tour.
regards,

I guess that counts as pretty solid build quality then!

I agree. I thought the hide glue joints in the case would let go pretty quick, but nothing happened for the first two years outside. It makes me wonder why people get so upset about washing a piano case with soap and water.
Regards,

I clean my piano with disinfectant spray after teaching, and usually at least once after practising. I dampen a cloth with it so I'm not allowing it to drip into the keyboard and it's been fine.

I checked on the Steinway D that was used - it is a 1916 Steinway (which explains the very slight action noise audible in pianissimo playing). It is amazing that the hammers, now boxed away, still were and maybe even now are in such good condition.

I prefer the vintage American wine and gold colours which are sweeter and offer more heart, warmth and romance, than either the deep chocolate and bronze colours of the Hamburg hammers or the recent decades of the American hammers.

Something has been lost since 1940 or 1939 . . . or even 1950.


M.

do you think it's just the hammers that make the difference or do you think it's the whole piano? I'm sure the hammers are quite an important factor, but do you think that there could be other contributing factors?

FWIW and only MHO, pianos are stringed instruments played percussively. I play, or more accurately, used to play both violin and viola. We change strings regularly and don't consider our instrument a "new" brand; we select bows (hammers) independent of our instrument purchase. We replace bridges regularly; we move the sound post around for best sound. We replace the pegs, nut, tail piece, etc., on an as needed basis, and still consider our instrument the original make. What would we have to change to "spoil" our fiddle? Replace the front plate, ie, the soundboard. The front plate is carefully tuned, as is the back plate, and is the main ingredient giving each violin its distinctive timbre. With that in mind, I would suggest you could replace anything on a piano, with the exception of the soundboard, and still consider it "original."

John,

With that logic, and I agree with your use of "original," contrary to S&S marketing, a piano rebuilt and re-boarded in the Steinway shops would also be a "Steinwas." However, that doesn't seem to be the point of contention.

But if the soundboard is replaced by the original maker (whether a violin or piano) is it not still the product of that maker? "Original" -- meaning all the original parts-- is not necessarily the same as the brand identification.

It would be a rebuilt, but still a Steinway. If I could have my Andrea Guarneri fiddle rebuild by Andrea Guarneri, I'd consider it an original, but rebuilt. If rebuilt by someone else, then I guess I'd consider it firewood. Well, maybe not, but definitely no longer a Guarneri.

The violin analogy has limits. The soundboard and back of a violin are carved to shape. A piano soundboard is glued to shape. If a Steinway soundboard looses its shape-it is a Steinwas. In this case the soundboard must be replaced to restore the original utility.

Steinway talks a lot about "building in tension". When that tension is destroyed by repeated cycles of significant humidity change-it goes away.

The proof is how does a piano sound and play and how long do those qualities endure with use.

There was a time when top plates in violins were replaced. Today it is frowned upon, to say the least. That may happen with piano soundboards.

A number of years ago I believed that a rebuilt piano, with a new board, couldn't possibly retain the characteristics of the "original," and certainly not the signature sound of the maker. I have now played lots of rebuilt pianos, from various talented artisans, and their rebuilt pianos retain the essential qualities of the instruments whose name is on the fallboard.

Does this always happen? Of course not. With proper care, an Extonia needn't remain in exile, however. It can be brought back to "original."

This is such an effective marketing tactic I have to admit it is frustrating.

Even with the sophisticated folks here at PW, it sometimes works. Well, it can get in their heads a bit. It is really a shame, because the people who fall for this sales tactic are likely to buy an inferior instrument for a lot more money, and being stuck with it.

Don't pay attention to how the piano sounds. Don't pay attention to how the piano feels. Don't pay attention to how the piano performs. Don't pay attention to the service or warranty or support for the piano.

Boooo!!!!! You haven't even bought the piano yet.......think about selling it! Don't think about its performance, think about how some imaginary person in the future who also wont consider its performance might be scared of buying it from you because of all the scary stuff we are trying to convince you of!

If you don't like the performance of a piano, don't buy it. New, used, factory, custom, whatever. Doesn't sound good? Dont buy it. Doesn't play well? Don't buy it. Doesn't look good? Don't buy it. Bad service? Don't buy it. Bad warranty? Don't buy it.

If you like the performance of a piano, the support that comes with it, and you can afford it, that might be the piano that you will be happy owning. And guess what, that is how intelligent people buy pianos! And in the future, if you want to sell it, if it sounds good, looks good, performs well, and is priced fairly, an intelligent person will buy it!

The people who are scared away from this piano or that piano by sales pitches which take focus away from performance are not as numerous as the people who buy pianos based on performance within their budget.

Please. Don't be suckers ( sorry to use such a harsh word ) and buy a piano for reasons other than how it sounds, how it plays, how it looks, how it is supported and if you can afford it.

Marty, if you want to get down to the basic physics of the subject, the sound board is nothing more than a transducer, an impedance matching device, which takes the mechanical motion of the strings, via the bridge, and matches the impedance of the air (Fourier transforms, any one?). Important, however, is that mechanically, it matches a choke/capacitor combination in electrical circuits, and introduces frequency filtering. It's this filtering which gives each instrument it's unique signature (along with a couple thousand other variables). If I were rebuilding, I would attempt to reuse the original sound board it at all possible.

While the piano sound board is under tension, the violin is actual under a bit of tension as well. Obviously scaled way down. When you insert the post between the back and front plates, you introduce a very small amount of tension on the front plate. The back plate is a hardwood, usually cherry or equivalent. The front plate is a soft wood, usually a spruce variety. And as noted before, both plates are usually tuned to a resonance, on F and the other G. This gives the violin a really rich sound when playing in certain keys.

A major difference between the piano and violin, besides the method used to vibrate the strings, is how the bridge works. On a violin, the bridge works to transform horizontal string movement. The bridge pivots on one foot or the other, to impart a vertical motion to the sound board, which then acoustically couples the sound to the surrounding air. On a piano, the string motion is almost completely vertical, so the bridge is merely a coupling device, not a motion changing device (my college physics was nearly 50 years ago, so forgive me if I am faulty in some of the terminology).

Interestingly, on a grand, the back wave, which would cancel out the front wave, reflects off the hardwood floor and returns to either vibrate the sound board sympathetically or cancel certain frequencies. This is what happens on a violin. With a carpet underneath, the back wave is absorbed to a great degree, and the major sound component is coming off the top of the sound board. Would you believe, some genius in Tacoma, put a hardwood board under the piano, to duplicate the piano lid, but knew so little about physics as to not realize that he was perfectly cancelling out the bottom and top wave for most listeners. I went to a concert once, and the pianist was sweating gallons of perspiration to be heard, and the piano was almost silent!

John,

I'm not arguing with you at all. All I wanted to interject was the concept of what 'rebuilt' is, rather than "original parts" or the use of the term "original." Nothing more, nothing less.

The discussion had been about soundboard replacement and if a rebuilt can match the same quality that the instrument was when it was first built. I believe that it can.

What the idiot in Tacoma did is irrelevant! And nobody is suggesting that a piano should use a soundboard for a case lid or a lid for a soundboard.

Violins and pianos are two different animals.

Marty, I wasn't suggesting we disagreed at all. I was trying to expand on the topic and add some color and background information. As a player of both instruments, I find more similarities than differences.

Gotcha!