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#2154769 - 09/20/13 10:15 PM Chorales for CATS
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Welcome to the study group “Chorales for CATS” !
To whom do jazzists go to learn voice-leading ? Johann Sebastian Bach’s 371 Four-Part Chorales is described by Fred Hersch as “virtually a Bible of four-part voice leading”.

Members of this group will be analysing Bach chorales in depth and applying learnings to jazz.

This is a sub-thread to Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players

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#2154776 - 09/20/13 10:31 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
First up for study as suggested by Knotty will be #1.

Here is a gorgeous rendition
Aus meines Herzens Grunde - string quartet

Mark Polishook has provided a great start in his blog
http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/09/jazz-piano-voice-leading-fred-hersch.html

I propose that we initially study the first mini phrase which is:
pick-up (m1);
m2; and
m3 1st chord.

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#2154926 - 09/21/13 09:12 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Love the thread title cus.

What might be fun would be to try and apply some of the concepts to small parts of tunes. Maybe the first 4 or 8 or all the things you are.

Also might be useful to get some feedback on executing these chorales, they seem so hard at least for me.

I have been playing as suggested by Fred H, one phrase at a time (to the first fermata), but adding voices incrementally.
Bass + sop, bass + tn, bass + alto, then top 2 voices, bottom 2, and bass+sop+alto.
Adding the tenor and alto is the most difficult part for me.

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#2155198 - 09/21/13 07:13 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Thanks Knotty !

I'm also using the incremental voices method to learn Chorale #1 Mini-phrase 1.

To get used to the alto sound, my teacher said I could play the soprano only and then sing the alto. When I first started this a few months ago, I could only do 2 notes a day. Now it's easier but still very challenging for me.

For the next level of challenge, FH suggests playing soprano, tenor, bass and singing the alto.

I love your suggestion of applying to ATTYA.
From Mark Polishook's article, Principle 1 could be "Insert IV and V before the target chord".

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#2156019 - 09/23/13 08:23 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
After three attempts I came up with this version.
So for the Eb7 measure, I insert the preceding Db7.

https://app.box.com/s/ua8vo7xdzhlnm13x24lt

You can see from the sheet that my tenor voice descends down the scale.
My alto doesn't sing the IV and the V.

https://app.box.com/s/xdy0rw5yzdb1xkh8q3nn

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#2156180 - 09/23/13 01:18 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)


Quick attempt. Nothing super fancy. Comments welcome.

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#2156245 - 09/23/13 03:46 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 698
Loc: Leicester, UK
knotty, forgetting about the alto for right now ... in the bass you have

F to Eb (first measure) ... you could take that down to Db for the Bb-7 chord. then leave the Db there for the Eb7 chord (it's the 7th of the chord). then bring the Db down to C for the Ab maj7 chord.

OR ... the Db, if in 2nd measure could come up to Eb for the third measure. except the third measure could be Eb (2 beats) and Db (2 beats) which lands you back down on the C underneath the Ab major 7

in general, anytime you can get a stepwise line in one direction ... take it!

sometimes getting just the bass line with the melody line is the easiest way. because then the two middle voices just get filled in ...

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#2156247 - 09/23/13 03:47 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 698
Loc: Leicester, UK
Originally Posted By: custard apple


You can see from the sheet that my tenor voice descends down the scale.




ca, well done! nice tenor!

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#2156685 - 09/24/13 07:37 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Hey Knots
That's so impressive that you could quickly come up with 4 voices just like that.
I take so long that from tomorrow, I think I will do just 2 voices.

Hi Mark
Thank you for reviewing my work on ATTYA mm 3-4.
Today I take the last part of ATTYA A1 sec. I apply the concept from your Lesson 2 Voice leading: the beauty of not having to stick to strict C maj 7 sounds is that I can prolong the "tension" of the G7, delaying the resolution to the C maj 7 of m8.

I don't play this very well. Amongst other things, my alto is far too loud.
https://app.box.com/s/v833n4nwqq6rbfwzcp36

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/9wh0jl52cctjv1ipre2s

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#2156712 - 09/24/13 08:59 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 698
Loc: Leicester, UK
ca! that's an impressive G7 in that mix!

here's more (sounds of) free voice leading and counterpoint

Paul Hindemith Sonata played by Glenn Gould

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#2157294 - 09/25/13 07:53 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
ca! that's an impressive G7 in that mix!

here's more (sounds of) free voice leading and counterpoint

Paul Hindemith Sonata played by Glenn Gould


Hi Mark
Thank you for reviewing my work for the C maj target chord.

I loved hearing the Paul Hindemith application of the Bach chorales concept. It beautifully illustrates the timelessness of Bach's voice-leading approach.
It was interesting that Glenn Gould showed much more emotion and range of dynamics than his typically restrained style. What a difficult piece to play.

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#2157296 - 09/25/13 07:58 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Today I try to make my inner voices move more diatonically. I target the F min 7 chord of the A2 section.
I substitute the C maj chord of A1 sec, using a Bb7 instead.

https://app.box.com/s/89z3nf6a2tn3ykfrj88w

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/76qz87kkynfq7kwrnhuz

Knotty
Please let me know when you're ready to learn the remainder of Phrase 1 up to the first fermata, so that we can work out together what Principle 2 is.
BTW I can't play Mini-phrase 1 well at all.

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#2157307 - 09/25/13 08:23 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Cus,

you are unstoppable with these.

I am noticing that everyone (including sensei) is ignoring the rule of no double voice (in FH article). Even FH seems to be loose with it.
That's all good with me.

I'll try to add a few measures to Attya, maybe the first 4 of the bridge.

I'm all set with the first phrase.

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#2157335 - 09/25/13 09:21 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1368
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
. . . is ignoring the rule of no double voice . . .
Rules, gotta know them to break them, I was taught.
These chorales are a main-stay in classic music theory classes in this country, (we use them for ear-training too . . ), for counterpoint class, as well as voice-leading . . . the basic rules (which are great to apply to big-band writing as an example.
No parallel octaves, no parallel fifths, if the melody is the root use the third or the fifth as a bass note, if the third is in the root do not double it. Try to get the bass and soprano voice to move in opposite directions and no doubling (well, sometimes one just has to, try to avoid to double the third . . . etc etc. On the other hand, if the sound of parallel harmonies tickle your fancy by all means use them; its a cool sound. But know that you are breaking The Rule. smile
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2157428 - 09/25/13 12:24 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 698
Loc: Leicester, UK
Chris is 101% right. There is a school of thought, for sure, that you gotta know rules before you break'em! The "rules" are out there - they're taught and observed as Chris has correctly pointed out. They're consistently applied and they're easily enough found. They're described in a million textbooks. Although not all the textbooks agree on all particular! But that'a different story entirely.

In my former life as director of a university music theory program I did indeed drop the red pen on many unsuspecting rule breakers! Parallel fifths! Doubled thirds? No third in a triad? Two leading tones? Inappropriate dissonance? .... Alto voice too low for the alto to sing? BANG! As it was written by law givers so shall it be! Through the gates of theory shall go no unrepentant rule breakers!

BUt. Damn! There's fuzzy, gray reality to contend with. The truth, as "Sempai" Knotty has observed: "FH plays loose with the rules!"

In a world where rules rule everything, what's a discerning critically thinking jazz pianist to do? (If you can, read that sentence as if it was the opening line of a trailer for a huge Hollywood movie .... "In a world where rules rule everything ......"

I mean: Does Fred get to break rules? But not the rest of us? Do we have to just put up with FH's dang rule breaking and say "well he does it but we can't?" Or do we get to break them gleefully and unrepentently (along with FH)? Can we ONLY break them if we know, first, that we're going to break them? Do we have to learn all the rules first and then only later make all the music? Does music really depend on knowing all the rules?

Yikes! But what is someone breaks a rule and it sounds good? Does that every happen?

* * * * *

The rules are there. No doubt about it. But just as counterpoint is taught through several different styles (16th and 18th and 20th century counterpoint) so it is with voice leading - and really, with anything. There are 'styles' of voice leading that evolve across music history. One example is the line that goes more or less from Scott Joplin to Fats Waller to Art Tatum to Teddy Wilson to Bud Powell to Red Garland/Wynton Kelly to Bill Evans to Herbie Hancock and Chick Corea and ... Richie Bierach and .... How does Mr. Tyner figure into this? How does Cecil Taylor figure into this? What about Paul Bley?

Fred Hersch, early on in the master class says: "Voice leading, in addition to harmonically opening up the tune, also serves a rhythmic function."

There's a difference between voice leading in general and rule following in particular. Voice leading is the idea that voices "lead" - they go smoothly from one voice to another so transitions from chord to the next chord happen "smoothly."

But how anyone defines "smoothly" depends on style. So it is the case that a very strict set of rules for 4-part voice leading, a style, exists in most university music departments (across national borders ...) One of the reasons those styles and rules are taught as standard is they're a reference to a common practice. The thing is "which" common practice?" Common practice in Beethoven's time? Common practice in Bud Powell's time? Did Bud take liberties that Beethoven didn't? Why don't they teach the common practice of Bud rather than the common practice of Ludwig?

Most jazz pianists and most of the stock voicings in jazz break most of the rules of strict 4-part voice leading - as that subject is taught in a standarized why out of a textbook. Are the "old" theorists wrong? Are the "new" jazzers right?

We COULD write out all ATTYA in a very strict 4-part style according to classical rules of voice leading. That'll get us one sound. It's worth doing.

We can just as well write in a much freer, looser kind of way to a different sound. That free looser way may contradict some of the old laws .....

If "rules" are going to rule, well "which set of rules?" The rules of which style?" Bartok and Hindemith and vs. Beethoven and Mozart vs Debussy and Ravel vs. atonal Schoenberg and Webern? McCoy Tyner and J.S. Bach?

Ummm .... things get complicated fast with rules! I'm NOT saying "no rules" - but just pointing out that with rules also come the huge pink elephant that sits in the room. That pink elephant is STYLE.

FH, in the masterclass has gone for a freer, looser style where he's going back and forth among more than one set of rules ....

Yikes! Hope this helps!

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#2157824 - 09/26/13 05:42 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: chrisbell]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Originally Posted By: knotty
. . . is ignoring the rule of no double voice . . .
Rules, gotta know them to break them, I was taught.
These chorales are a main-stay in classic music theory classes in this country, (we use them for ear-training too . . ), for counterpoint class, as well as voice-leading . . . the basic rules (which are great to apply to big-band writing as an example.
No parallel octaves, no parallel fifths, if the melody is the root use the third or the fifth as a bass note, if the third is in the root do not double it. Try to get the bass and soprano voice to move in opposite directions and no doubling (well, sometimes one just has to, try to avoid to double the third . . . etc etc. On the other hand, if the sound of parallel harmonies tickle your fancy by all means use them; its a cool sound. But know that you are breaking The Rule. smile


I always thought Sweden was a cool country !
I'm using them for ear training as well.

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#2157826 - 09/26/13 05:50 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook


FH, in the masterclass has gone for a freer, looser style where he's going back and forth among more than one set of rules ....

Yikes! Hope this helps!



Hi Mark
Thank you for the interesting and helpful history.
For me, I've enjoyed studying Andy Laverne's modern harmonization - I guess this is similar to the Richie Beirach school.
I am now very privileged to study Bach's set of rules.
In a sense, I've ended up, by accident, studying it "backwards".
It's my long-term aim to switch between styles.

Hi Knotty
You're just great to be diving into FH's masterclass.

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#2157852 - 09/26/13 07:02 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Hey Knots
I found the remainder of the first phrase very difficult to play. Beautiful though.
I'm interested in hearing what principles you derived from it.

From the approach to the G maj chord (which is the chord preceding the fermata), I've got 2 more principles to be working on.
Principle 2: Alto and bass move in contrary motion.
Principle 3: Bass walks from 1st inversion to Root.

Here I apply these 2 principles to ATTYA.
https://app.box.com/s/a0vvrp07amv1gu8vmti6

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/ha9j1nx9slaze81cq1j9

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#2157950 - 09/26/13 10:35 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Cus,
That one sounded really great. Bach in the days, they'd probably burn you to the stake for that parallel 5th, but I thought that short segment sounded great.
Maybe i need to do more of what you're doing. Very short and specific.
I tried wrapping up 4 bars of the bridge last night and got so close but gave up. It's like 1-2 minutes per note ...

I've never had a great interest for theory but maybe I should.

Meanwhile, these chorales are doing 2 things:
Intense sight reading.
Fingers moving in odd ways.

I am playing the 2nd phrase to the 2nd fermata and you have to be a bit creative. Specifically with the 10ths and then where the alto stays but sop and tenor move. That's tricky stuff, esp. if you are trying to read it.

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#2158144 - 09/26/13 04:54 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Hey Knots
Thanks for picking me up on the parallel 5ths.
My brain is already tired out from the short snippets I do.

I agree with one of your earlier comments that the chorales help you pass notes around from hand to hand. Specifically the tenor and alto notes.

This thread is great for pushing each other along. I will try the 2nd phrase today.

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#2158150 - 09/26/13 05:12 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
that second phrase is a bit more challenging.

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#2158450 - 09/27/13 07:38 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Knots, that was definitely the hardest Bach chorale phrase I've played.
From the D maj 1st inversion chord (i.e. the 2nd chord) onwards, I end up moving the bass up an octave.

This weekend I'm doing nothing new, I'm just going to consolidate the 1st 2 phrases.

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#2158632 - 09/27/13 02:52 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Cus.
There is a single problematic now and that's the A a 10 th above the F#.
I just roll it as best I can.
The next chord I also roll but it is a smaller 10 so it's easier. The next measure is very tricky because of holding the voices.
But that's what is all about isn't it.

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#2158944 - 09/28/13 07:23 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty
The next measure is very tricky because of holding the voices.


Hey Knots
You're very exact with your voice duration.
You've made me realize that I don't concentrate enough on this precision. I tend to obscure the voice duration with the pedal. Although the pedal does produce a nice pianistic sound.

I anticipate I'm going to spend a while on Phrase 2.

Sorry to hold you up. Feel free to press ahead.

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#2159757 - 09/29/13 05:14 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Check this out.


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#2159944 - 09/30/13 06:17 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
I loved how he seamlessly blended in his solo at 0:27 in Bach's style of repeated motifs.
I also loved how he returned to the Invention to reintroduce the point of reference.

Looking forward to your burnin' version Knotty.

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#2160088 - 09/30/13 01:36 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2995
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
see you in 12 years

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#2160313 - 10/01/13 04:48 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 698
Loc: Leicester, UK
CATS ...

I'm not sure but it looks to me and I think sounds to me that that vid has been sped up. What do you think?

Sped up or not redoing that invention as boogie woogie as he does is more than way way WAY cool and clever and he plays the absolute daylights out of it.

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#2160352 - 10/01/13 07:26 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2303
Loc: Sydney
mmm that's an interesting interpretation of yours, Mark.
Yes I agree it was very cool how he did the boogie woogie LH while he threw his RH all over the place.
The big take out for me is how suitable Bach's patterns are for jazz.

I've read your blog no.3 on voice-leading. Thank you for the lesson, it was very clearly illustrated. However, could I please clarify this point with you: do you mean "if a doubled 3rd is part of a contrary motion series, it's OK ?"
So in your example, the F is part of the desc alto line, which is fine, since the F in the bass is on its way up ?

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#2160418 - 10/01/13 10:42 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 698
Loc: Leicester, UK
... here's another guy (lennie tristano) who played things back faster than he recorded them. and caught all kinds of trouble for it!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EmjgRnTZJU

it may be, for sure, that that bach invention IS real ... it's great either way!

and thanks for going to the blog ..... about that doubled third. yes, exactly. it's totally fine as long as it comes about through contrary motion. contrary motion ... is a very good thing to have in the toolbox!

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