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Page 3 of 12 < 1 2 3 4 5 ... 11 12 >
Topic Options
#2176781 - 11/04/13 05:52 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hi Cus
Thanks for listening. I'm moving on to #3.

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#2177105 - 11/04/13 06:19 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK
Just put up a blog post about chromatic voice leading in Bach, Chopin, and Wagner. And how it can be used in jazz.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/11/chromatic-voice-leading.html

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#2177111 - 11/04/13 06:27 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK
Knotty! What's not to like in that chorale! It's software style AND you're playing in it is gorgeous.

Ok. So there's a glitch here and there. But that's tiny stuff. Major stuff going on is you're getting a beautiful singing tone from the piano. You're playing the chorale so it's clearly phrased. You're playing it such that voices are popping out - meaning YOU are hearing voices. (I mean that in a good way, of course). You're playing expressively. And you're playing in time.

Little glitches? That's just a little more practice! All other good stuff - well, it's there to be heard - and it is good!

Ummm, just sayin' smile

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#2177830 - 11/06/13 03:55 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Just put up a blog post about chromatic voice leading in Bach, Chopin, and Wagner. And how it can be used in jazz.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/11/chromatic-voice-leading.html


Hi Mark
Very nice Bach example of the bass ascending chromatically in m2. This interesting non-diatonic sound is emphasized by the other voices descending.
So the bass moves in contrary motion to the other voices.

I think Bird is a great example of using chromatics in his improvised lines.

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#2178371 - 11/07/13 08:30 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK
Cus, I hear it that way too - Bach AND Bird ..

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#2178916 - 11/08/13 08:25 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Number 3
https://app.box.com/s/98ukcpd4eqpau6ivn30o

With a few mistakes and hesitations zoomed right through. This time I decide polishing isn't worth the extra week. N3 is the easiest so far. #1 being the hardest.

#4 will be a fun key.

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#2178925 - 11/08/13 08:45 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
What key is this whacky piece in by the way?
It's a A melodic minor scale with a tonic on E, so I guess that makes it 5th mode of melodic minor. I don't even know what to call that.
Levine puts it under "loose ends" and dedicates it one funny page about a king cutting your head off (p 242)

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#2178948 - 11/08/13 09:27 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK
knotty! really nice playing (once again!) ... you're getting a nice tone out of the piano! you can always go back sometime in the future (near or far ... or never) for polishing ...

the question of key in #3 ... hypothetically speaking, what IF it was in the key of A minor?

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#2179052 - 11/08/13 12:43 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
It would be unfinished ending on the dominant.
Overall, the piece sounds unfinished, pretty whacky this way. Not your typical chord progression.

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#2179137 - 11/08/13 03:21 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hi Knotty
You're amazing to learn these so quickly. Thanks for recording.
I'm thinking #3 is in E minor.

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#2179249 - 11/08/13 05:17 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
https://app.box.com/s/36yq0mclldcv2yu357jc

E-?
But it has E major has 1st and last chord. Also we'll see the G# everywhere instead when scale is running down, which for some reason is the melodic minor in the classical sense.

No, I think Bach was gambling with his life at the time and perhaps decided to challenge the king.

Thanks for the nice words, and have a super day.

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#2179317 - 11/08/13 07:12 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK


.... Here are some detail about the 1st and 2nd phrase. All in the form of questions. Hopefully they're "leading" questions!

BIG IDEA #1 (let's look at the 1st two phrases as a series of chords)

hypothetically, what IF the E maj triad that begins the chorale is a pickup? and the 1st chord of the 1st measure is an A min triad?

What if the last chord of the 2nd phrase (right before the double bar line) is an A minor triad?

Hypothetically, what if the 1st chord of the 2nd measure is an E maj triad (1st inversion)? And what if the 1st chord of the 3rd measure is an A min triad (first inversion)?

So just taking the 1st chord of each measure for the 1st 2 phrases (measures 1 - 4) ....

m1 -> A min
m2 -> E maj (1st inversion)
m3 -> A min (1st inversion)
m4 -> E major (C in the sop. is an upper neighbor to B, the note of resolution)
last chord of m4 -> A min

Let's put it all together (and simplify):

A min -> E maj -> A min -> E maj -> A min (What key does this look like?)

The pickup chord to m1 is an E maj triad. Let's add that to the front of the progression.

E maj -> A min -> E maj -> A min -> E maj -> A min (What key does this look and sound like?)

Let's turn those chords into Roman numerals (the V chord at the beginning is the pickup that precedes m1).

V -> i -> V - i -> V -> i

What key does this look like if the i chord is A min and V is E maj?

If we're looking only at the the chords described above we're leaving out most of the other chords in each measure (on purpose). If we didn't leave them out could we hear those chords as passing chords?

Can we take the 1st and 3rd beat of every measure. Could the chords that fall in between (chords on beat 2 and beat 4) - could they be passing chords? So, could a chord on beat 1 and a chord on beat 3 have a passing chord that falls in between on beat 2?

To put this to work in jazz (hypothetically), let's say we're playing ATTYA. 1st measure is F min7. 2nd measure is Bb min 7. Could we play an F min7 on beat 1? A C7 on beat 2? An Fm7 for beat 3 and 4? And then on to the Bb min7.



BIG IDEA #2 (let's look at the 1st 2 phrases as 4 independent lines).

Look and listen to the bass line for the 1st two phrases.
Look and listen to the tenor line for the 1st two phrases.
Look and listen to the alto line for the 1st two phrases.
Look and listen to the soprano line for the 1st two phrases.

What do you hear and see as the key for each of the lines (bass, tenor, alto, soprano).

If we were to answer all questions above would that tell us anything about the key of the first 2 phrases?

BIG IDEA #3

The very last chord of the chorale is an E maj triad. Does the chorale end on a i chord? Or a V chord?

... Hoping these questions have all been leading!

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#2179633 - 11/09/13 02:50 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
ok cowboy, you win this round.

However, I don't think anybody noticed my hidden link above, special for Cus.

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#2179704 - 11/09/13 05:49 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK
brother cowboy in the grand scheme we're all voices on team bach smile

your link is way past MAGNIFICENT. MAGNIFICENTLY well done as they say on this side of the pond. but i didn't want to say anything cause it's cus' link!

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#2179816 - 11/09/13 09:48 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty


Dear Knotty
Thanks so much for the wonderful link. That was very nice of you. And extremely clever too.
Gorgeous tone as always.

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#2180796 - 11/11/13 10:16 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)

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#2180834 - 11/12/13 01:18 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hey Knotty
You are one big CAT. I loved everything in it.

Happy Birthday MarkCAT


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#2181234 - 11/12/13 06:55 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK
You guys are too much. Knotty, I am HONORED to hear something like that. It's a privilege! Cus! That's a gorgeous cake.

Well, you two DEFINITELY have the great posts of the day! Here's another blog entry on voice leading.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/11/More-On-Voice-Leading.html

But I much prefer song and cake!

Thank you both. You're GREAT!

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#2181273 - 11/12/13 08:40 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
You're welcome. It's just an old Readers Digest arrangement I found in my basement ;-)

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#2181295 - 11/12/13 09:43 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty
You're welcome. It's just an old Readers Digest arrangement I found in my basement ;-)


"cracks up laughing"

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#2183451 - 11/16/13 03:43 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
My new favorite for when you have guests and you want to be sure they leave fast:

warning: loud.

https://app.box.com/s/hljbyy6l9degu1s6abe4

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#2183497 - 11/16/13 05:49 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
And since it's Saturday, here's
"Es ist das Heil uns kommer her"
(a remix of Miley Cyrus latest hit)

https://app.box.com/s/8c434qbuq56cezx6w3jf

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#2183561 - 11/16/13 07:44 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK
knotty! please stop leaving all this fabulously played examples on the web! i can't take it!

... the pace at which you're playing the chorale sounds perfect to my ears. also the voices are sounding very much like voices ... (instead of notes stacked up on each other ...!) ... really, really nice ... !

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#2183680 - 11/16/13 11:05 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Hey KnotCAT
I really liked your dynamics in Chopin C min. It was incredible how softly you could play it but still sound the note.
As for your Chorale #4, it's very pretty indeed.
Please stop learning everything so fast wink

I'm still on Chorale #1, working on voicing the soprano, and connecting the chords smoothly without relying on the pedal.

For Chopin E min prelude, I'm finding m17 very difficult. I'm also working on my LH tone to make every voice sound when I play softly.

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#2183912 - 11/17/13 12:43 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Thanks Cus. I see what you mean about meas. 17. It's tricky.

For the chorale, maybe remove one voice, probably the tenor or the alto. I suppose you can do as much with them as you want, but reading the 4 voices is hard.

#5 is 8 phrases instead of 4. I haven't started it yet.

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#2185558 - 11/20/13 09:03 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK
If you've ever wanted to know exactly how I, IV, and V chords connect to each other with smooth voice leading, well, here it is.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/11/jazz-piano-online-voice-leading-i-v-iv.html

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#2186102 - 11/21/13 04:00 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
If you've ever wanted to know exactly how I, IV, and V chords connect to each other with smooth voice leading, well, here it is.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/11/jazz-piano-online-voice-leading-i-v-iv.html


Thanks Mark. Could I please confirm I understand your last paragraph correctly ?
1. 7ths, that is, minor 7ths or dominant 7ths, usually resolve down ?
2. 1st inversion is preferable to 2nd inversion ?

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#2186110 - 11/21/13 04:48 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2305
Loc: Sydney
Here I play Chorale #1 in G maj.
https://app.box.com/s/hsnzisofacbvnmy33uwz

A big thank you to Viktor Dick for supplying me with his beautiful string quartet mp3 which I used for my play-along practice.

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#2186136 - 11/21/13 07:16 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 733
Loc: Leicester, UK
Cus, first of all - really nice playing! Gorgeous! You and Knotty are setting the bar prettttttttty pretttttttty high!

Originally Posted By: custard apple



Thanks Mark. Could I please confirm I understand your last paragraph correctly ?
1. 7ths, that is, minor 7ths or dominant 7ths, usually resolve down ?
2. 1st inversion is preferable to 2nd inversion ?




I think you're asking about these?

1. Sevenths usually resolve down.

In "classical voice leading and theory" the 7th (in a chord) usually resolves down because it's considered to be dissonant. Of course that's changed in jazz where the 7th is more or less treated as a consonance.

In common practice classical theory the 7th actually gets prepared and then resolved. "Prepared" means the note that will become the 7th is first heard as a consonance. That note is tied over into the 7th (which is where it's dissonant. And then it's resolved down.

Here's a link that describes how that works with some examples.

http://www.dangutwein.net/courses/theorytxt/text/sevenths.htm

Here's are some more seventh examples

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/music/prep-diss-res.png

One of the examples gets explained here (announcing a new blog post smile

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/11/voice-leading-and-7ths.html

I'm not sure about the question?

2. 1st inversion is preferable to 2nd inversion ?

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#2186184 - 11/21/13 08:51 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2999
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Super nice Cus. The voices come out really nice and clear, and that's a neat tempo. I think it gets easier after the 1st one.

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