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#2186473 - 11/21/13 04:57 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook



I think you're asking about these?

1. Sevenths usually resolve down.

In "classical voice leading and theory" the 7th (in a chord) usually resolves down because it's considered to be dissonant. Of course that's changed in jazz where the 7th is more or less treated as a consonance.

In common practice classical theory the 7th actually gets prepared and then resolved. "Prepared" means the note that will become the 7th is first heard as a consonance. That note is tied over into the 7th (which is where it's dissonant. And then it's resolved down.

Here's a link that describes how that works with some examples.

http://www.dangutwein.net/courses/theorytxt/text/sevenths.htm

Here's are some more seventh examples

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/music/prep-diss-res.png

One of the examples gets explained here (announcing a new blog post smile

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/11/voice-leading-and-7ths.html



Hi Mark

Thanks for the Dan Gutwein link showing the C7 resolving diatonically down.

Thank you also for your great blog examples of creating dissonance prior to resolving diatonically down. Had you not mentioned the dissonance, my ears wouldn't have picked it up; as you said, jazz ears are so accustomed to hearing 7ths as consonances.

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#2186475 - 11/21/13 05:01 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hi Mark and Knotty
Thank you very much for listening to Bach Chorale 1.
It's a relief to know the first one is the most difficult.

I "know" Chorale 70 in C maj and Chorale 80 in D maj in terms of singing and harmonisation principles. I don't know how to play them though.

Should I go back to learn how to play them or should I start a brand new one ?

Knots, before you posted yours, I had assumed these were not playable except by Fred Hersch and CAT CATS. Now I realise these are a minimum technical standard if I'm to incorporate 4 voices in my improv.

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#2186482 - 11/21/13 05:31 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Very interesting following your work guys! I thought I'd share a little what I've been up to lately; arranging and orchestrating some tunes, etc for symphonic wind orchestra and piano trio (alas, not me on the piano) smile
It's a professional orchestra, so I'm very lucky in getting some really heavy players.

Here's two excerpts from a Legrand medley (love his tunes, chords):
Excerpt one: https://app.box.com/s/b4of1t3j9t1e77rirrjd
Excerpt two: https://app.box.com/s/5czxts5rg487vs47lcuu

You can check out the trombone parts for some voice leading.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2186487 - 11/21/13 05:51 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Another example. It's from a middle section of an original tune (its for the same concert as above; tomorrow evening actually . . . ).
The wood-winds play softly and the piano trio blows over these changes. C#m9 | DMaj7 | G#m11

https://app.box.com/s/qnru73oz35t19390f0a8
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2186546 - 11/21/13 08:14 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Chris B ... Nice stuff!

Cus & Knotty - You guys are doing GREAT to be playing this stuff at the level you are ... where the voices are coming out and everything's crisp and in tempo. There's NOTHING easy about playing this stuff well ..

Cus ... my opinion about the one to do next is the one that has your interest ...

And once you can play one you can play them all. It's just a matter of time ...! But it should be said again ... the level you guys are playing these at is really great and inspiring ....

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#2186724 - 11/22/13 05:59 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hi Chris
Thanks for sharing your work. I've downloaded them but can't play them tonight (just got home and it's too late for the neighbours).
The middle section looks particularly great.

Will the concert feature your vocals ? smile

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#2186725 - 11/22/13 06:00 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook


And once you can play one you can play them all. It's just a matter of time ...! But it should be said again ... the level you guys are playing these at is really great and inspiring ....


Thanks for your encouragement Mark.

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#2186728 - 11/22/13 06:27 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Thanks for sharing your work. I've downloaded them but can't play them tonight (just got home and it's too late for the neighbours).
The middle section looks particularly great. Will the concert feature your vocals ? smile

Thankfully, no. smile
The concert is a homage to one of Scandinavia's foremost jazz composers and pianists. She's the featured pianist (with her trio; Palle Danielsson on bass) as well as the featured composer (all except Legrand which is her one of her favourite composers) and Mozart which she'll play the second movement of the C major concerto. This is a major gig, at one the finest concert halls with one of the best symphonic wind orchestras. So I'm really looking forward to the gig tonight!
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2187023 - 11/22/13 06:42 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: chrisbell]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: chrisbell
Another example. It's from a middle section of an original tune (its for the same concert as above; tomorrow evening actually . . . ).
The wood-winds play softly and the piano trio blows over these changes. C#m9 | DMaj7 | G#m11 https://app.box.com/s/qnru73oz35t19390f0a8
And here's the actual tune from tonights concert:
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2187064 - 11/22/13 08:20 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Amazing orchestration Chris. Beautiful hall, piano and piano solo.

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#2187204 - 11/23/13 08:07 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
That's really great Chris!

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#2187239 - 11/23/13 09:34 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1332
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Thanks guys. Lot of hard work and elbow grease (moving the mouse) but having an inspiring tune/chords helps.
_________________________

I never play anything the same way once.

https://soundcloud.com/chrisb/sets
https://www.youtube.com/user/djboing/videos

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#2187937 - 11/25/13 07:51 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Chopin Prelude in E-
Very beautiful.
Will keep playing it a while longer, a couple times a week maybe.

https://app.box.com/s/874tetpekwzs4va7a2rb

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#2188174 - 11/25/13 04:46 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
That IS beautiful Knotty.
Great tempo for phrasing, I also liked your couple of instances of rubato.

For this one, I'm still working on making my tone beautiful for the non-soprano voices.

Which technique one are you going to do next ?

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#2188245 - 11/25/13 06:58 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2991
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Hi Cus,
Thank you!
I will work on A major next.

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#2188455 - 11/26/13 04:39 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty

I will work on A major next.


Looking forward to your version.

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#2188457 - 11/26/13 04:45 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
If you've ever wanted to know exactly how I, IV, and V chords connect to each other with smooth voice leading, well, here it is.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/11/jazz-piano-online-voice-leading-i-v-iv.html


Here I apply the I IV V classical/chorale progression to Ab maj.
a) "at home" ending on I
b) slightly more unresolved ending on vi

https://app.box.com/s/p6cws3d5yrxjp5etii65

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/c7uev6i8nxdr9mhmk5aq

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#2188731 - 11/26/13 03:23 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Cus,

Here's a slightly different way to voice the I IV V I progressions.


https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/ab1451.png


The root position chords have doubled roots. The seventh in the V chord is part of a pattern called PREPARE - SUSPEND - RESOLVE.

The 7th on the V chord is considered to be a dissonance (in this older style it's dissonant). So it's first "prepared," meaning you hear the Db while it's a consonance in the IV chord. Its gets "suspended" as a dissonance in the V chord (the Db is the 7th of the Eb chord). And then the Db resolves down in the I chord that follows.

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#2189042 - 11/27/13 04:12 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Many thanks Mark for reviewing my work and for writing out your super clear Ab maj example.
I didn't know the Common Practice rules were so strict about
1. Doubling octaves
2. Preparing a dissonance for subsequent resolution

I have another attempt, this time in G maj.
https://app.box.com/s/47814ruzti5oqkigq1ki

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/045j7xaqwdsvzqlkcmx8

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#2189076 - 11/27/13 07:11 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Cus, the "old masters" are very, very, very, very strict about what can and can't be done. And in the cases where they weren't strict the teachers who teach their principles are strict!

Your G major example is perfect. You could, if you wanted, hold the C in the soprano on the C major triad into the next chord (the D major triad). So then you'd have the PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE pattern because the C over the D major triad resolves down to B.

Here are 2 more examples in G major.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19895150/G%20maj.png

The chords are labeled with Roman numerals. BUT. That labeling is deceptive. It's easy to see the labels and see chord progressions. But the chord progressions really aren't the important bit. What's important with the chords are (a) what's the start and end chord (the target) and (b) what are the intervening chords (the passing chords) that make it possible to get start to end.

The passing chords are like local roads. There are usually a bunch of local roads you can take to get from point A to point B.

The voice leading in both examples strictly follows

Quote:

1. Doubling octaves
2. Preparing a dissonance for subsequent resolution


Except in two places. Do you see where the exceptions are? ....

"Exception" isn't the best word to use. Because it can make it seem like there's arbitrary rule breaking and arbitrary rule "excepting" ...

If you don't see the exceptions - or if you don't want to find them! - no worries!

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#2189503 - 11/28/13 04:49 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook

Except in two places. Do you see where the exceptions are? ....

"Exception" isn't the best word to use. Because it can make it seem like there's arbitrary rule breaking and arbitrary rule "excepting" ...



Hi Mark
Thank you for your two new progressions in G maj. The second one is particularly pretty to my ears.
In the first one, the two exceptions are in the B min and the D7 passing chords where the root is not doubled.

I'm composing these quicker each time. Here I use the 2nd progression to apply to Eb maj.
https://app.box.com/s/iz7g8si7y93soxlzau23

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/66wjsja3d5cl41qoiiih

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#2189683 - 11/28/13 02:11 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Cus! Excellent! The next question is why isn't the root doubled in those two chords? Does either or both of those chords have a seventh? Are either of them part of a PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE pattern?

Your phrase == much improved! And getting faster is good. A question about the 3rd chord to the 4th chord ... the Gm triad to the Ab maj triad.

The rule is IF the bass between two root position triads moves by step then all of the upper voices have to move in contrary motion.

The reason is it's easy to get parallel octaves and fifths otherwise. Also if the upper voices don't move in contrary motion to the bass it's possible the 2nd chord will have 3 roots and one other chord tone (like a 3rd).

Three roots and a 3rd is fine for the LAST chord of a phrase. But only the last chord.

So, looking at that 3rd chord to the 4th chord .. is there anything maybe to do differently?

Looking at the 4th chord to the 5th chord. Does the bass move by step between those two chords? Do the upper voices move in contrary motion to the bass?

Hope this helps!!

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#2189717 - 11/28/13 04:08 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Hi Mark
Thanks so much for your prompt feedback on yesterday's work.
1. Both the B min and the D7 have the leading tone (the 7th)
2. B min is "prepare" and D7 is "suspend".

Today I've corrected the upper voice movement so that they descend diatonically.
https://app.box.com/s/x8n5valutcvmbn848k9c

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/r7bxlk85a6zmfqkobcxr

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#2189775 - 11/28/13 07:01 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Cus! That's gorgeous! Can you hear how simply and beautifully those voices move? I'm sure you noticed the great contrary motion you introduced into the phrase.

In the Ab triad (2nd chord from the end) there's an Ab in the tenor. You _could_ hold that Ab in the tenor. You could actually just hold that Ab into the Bb triad that follows. And then resolve it down to the G.

If you did that you'd have an instance of the PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE pattern. And the tenor line would move with just a little more certainty to its ends point.

One of the things voice leading teaches is economy. How to get the biggest bang out of the smallest possible motion. But that's not to say that the most economical path that a voice can follow is the best path. Economy's relative. Being able to weight two possibilities - and figure out which one is preferable - is exactly the skill this stuff will develop. And the more you do it the more the skill will become automatic and ingrained rather than as it is now, the stuff of rules.

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#2189942 - 11/29/13 03:50 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
Can you hear how simply and beautifully those voices move?



Definitely I could hear this !
Made me think that common practice did exist for a reason.

I tried your Ab suggestion, yes it was interesting what an impact this little decision to hold the prepare/suspend note could make.

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#2189995 - 11/29/13 08:54 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Cus, what you describe - the "impact" of the little decision - is exactly what voice leading and counterpoint are about. The idea is simply that notes take on a life of their own. We want to be attentive to what their trying to tell us .. Maybe that's why some people say music isn't composed. It already exists and it just gets "plucked" out of the air!

That Ab is perfectly happy being tied over into the V chord. Then in the V chord the Ab literally screams: "I resolve down!" This is a really common pattern with sevenths in chords. Pre-jazz the 7th was a dissonance. If you've only played jazz or pop music it can come as a shock!

So going back to the Bm7 and the D7 chord. The most common way 7ths show up in chords is through the PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE pattern. A question could be: Does the PREPARE SUSPEND RESOLVE pattern describe those two chords?

One more small detail ... The leading tone is the 7th scale step (in the key). But that's different than the intervals of 7ths that show up in chords.

So in a C major scale

C D E F G A B C

B is the leading tone.

If B becomes a 7th on a C maj triad (Cma7) then that's an interesting situation. Because the leading tone - B in the key of C - prefers to resolve upwards. But B as a 7th on top of C prefers to resolve down by step to A

So that's what the "study" of voice leading is about - which is hearing those tendencies and understanding the "how" and the "why" of them. And then internalising that for musical/practical rather than intellectual/academic use!

In other words theory describes practice. Practice doesn't have to conform to theory! (Except in the study of voice leading ... smile

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#2190348 - 11/30/13 01:02 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: Mark Polishook]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: Mark Polishook
The idea is simply that notes take on a life of their own. We want to be attentive to what their trying to tell us .. Maybe that's why some people say music isn't composed. It already exists and it just gets "plucked" out of the air!



Very cool Mark. The notes are floating in the air and are governed by implicit "rules"; it's up to us to grab these notes in an orderly/musical way.

Here I apply the "prepare-suspend-resolve the 7th" principle to E maj; gradually have been working my way through the keys in ATTYA.

https://app.box.com/s/24netddjsgi57gay771g

the sheet
https://app.box.com/s/1wt1sgzby9lksfriq9jb

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#2190421 - 11/30/13 06:22 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
Cus,

You have CAUGHT THE WAVE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHnHIUugClw

The phrase is PERFECT. There's nothing to improve in how it sounds. You can hear how those voices just do their work.

The only thing to point out is the the phrase is in E maj. So all accidentals should be written as sharps (4 sharps in E maj). If you do that you'll see a few more common tones, etc.

Really - simple as that phrase is it's totally and completely perfect. Totally and completely smile

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#2190740 - 11/30/13 09:50 PM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2295
Loc: Sydney
hahaha thanks Mark, I ended up closing my eyes for part of the video.

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#2190910 - 12/01/13 10:44 AM Re: Chorales for CATS [Re: custard apple]
Mark Polishook Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 629
Loc: Leicester, UK
... i hear you about that video. not only did the surfer catch the wave but so did the videographer! ... more coming soon about dim. triads and also the iii triad!

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