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#2154780 - 09/20/13 10:35 PM Agraffe Alloy
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1467
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
I am doing a PTG chapter program next month on agraffes. I have a material scientist who will be presenting the issue regarding how the material responds to use.

I have a bad cold so my energy is very low and I am hoping someone will know what the current alloy is in say KLINKE, Yamaha, etc.
I have tried communicating directly with KLINKE and they just brush me off.

I know during the 1970's and early 80's NY Steinway used Phosphor Bronze which don't sound all that good.
Thanks!
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2154838 - 09/21/13 01:12 AM Re: Agraffe Alloy [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 20759
Loc: Oakland
McPhail used agraffes that had a piece of wire that contacted the string after it went through the hole. You could change the wire to demonstrate the differences, if you could find a McPhail grand.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2154851 - 09/21/13 01:59 AM Re: Agraffe Alloy [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
I am doing a PTG chapter program next month on agraffes. I have a material scientist who will be presenting the issue regarding how the material responds to use.

I have a bad cold so my energy is very low and I am hoping someone will know what the current alloy is in say KLINKE, Yamaha, etc.
I have tried communicating directly with KLINKE and they just brush me off.

I know during the 1970's and early 80's NY Steinway used Phosphor Bronze which don't sound all that good.
Thanks!

Don't take it personally. I've tried several times both as R&D Director at Baldwin and as a consultant to various companies -- all customers of Klinke -- to get this information and we have been treated just the same.

As near as I can tell through comparison testing it is C36000 free machining brass. If it is not exactly that alloy it is very close. Can't say what it might have been in the past.

ddf


Edited by Del (09/21/13 10:41 AM)
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2154852 - 09/21/13 02:04 AM Re: Agraffe Alloy [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
phacke Offline

Gold Supporter until November 11 2014


Registered: 10/18/12
Posts: 390
Loc: CO, USA
Hello Mr. McMorrow,
Interesting talk, I would be interested in seeing the slides if they become available.

Anyhow, forgive me for covering the perhaps obvious, but have you asked the materials scientist you are working with to examine one? Somebody in that line of work should be able to get you pretty far with identifying such agraffe material if you supply one.

If time was not of the essence, I would volunteer this.

Hopefully you will get the information you seek without any testing though.

Best wishes-
_________________________
phacke

Steinway YM (1933)
...Working on:
J. S. Bach, Sonata No. 1 in B minor (BWV 1014) duet with violin

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#2155071 - 09/21/13 03:28 PM Re: Agraffe Alloy [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Ed McMorrow, RPT Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/09/12
Posts: 1467
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Thanks Del. Good to know KLINKE'S attitude is standard operating procedure. They would not even tell me what their minimum order size is. Which in the US would be considered restraint of trade.

Phacke, the materials scientist is retired, so he no longer has access to a lab.
_________________________
In a seemingly infinite universe-infinite human creativity is-seemingly possible

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#2155122 - 09/21/13 04:59 PM Re: Agraffe Alloy [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Roy123 Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 1695
Loc: Massachusetts
C36000 is very common. It used to be widely used in faucets and other plumbing fixtures, but because it has lead in it, I believe it is not longer used for those purposes. It's not particularly hard, nor does it have particularly high tensile strength, but it sure machines well.

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#2155252 - 09/21/13 09:20 PM Re: Agraffe Alloy [Re: Roy123]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Roy123
C36000 is very common. It used to be widely used in faucets and other plumbing fixtures, but because it has lead in it, I believe it is not longer used for those purposes. It's not particularly hard, nor does it have particularly high tensile strength, but it sure machines well.

I'm going by a not always reliable memory here. I visited Cornwall-Patterson some years back (Baldwin days) and that -- or, as I say, something similar -- was what was being used. It was off-the-shelf stuff. Whatever they could get drawn to the right diameter and that would machine very easily and quickly. When attacked with a file and/or a hacksaw blade the material Klinke uses feels the same. And when overstressed it breaks the same. It could be some different alloy but I rather doubt it.

ddf


Edited by Del (09/21/13 09:26 PM)
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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#2155254 - 09/21/13 09:28 PM Re: Agraffe Alloy [Re: Ed McMorrow, RPT]
Del Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/04/03
Posts: 5065
Loc: Olympia, Washington
Originally Posted By: Ed McMorrow, RPT
Thanks Del. Good to know KLINKE'S attitude is standard operating procedure. They would not even tell me what their minimum order size is. Which in the US would be considered restraint of trade.

Oh, yes, it is SOP. And I was working with some of their biggest customers. Go figure.

ddf
_________________________
Delwin D Fandrich
Piano Research, Design & Manufacturing Consultant
ddfandrich@gmail.com
(To contact me privately please use this e-mail address.)

Stupidity is a rare condition, ignorance is a common choice. --Anon

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