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#2156847 - 09/24/13 01:24 PM Should There Be A Standard?
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
After all of the incessant arguing over ET vs. UT's, maybe this is a fundamental question we should first ask ourselves.

Should there still be a universally-accepted standard of tuning; something that is a failsafe upon which all musicians can ultimately rely? I'm not talking about what happens in the privacy of one's own home, but what goes on for large groups and itinerant performers.

And please please please, can we keep name-calling and insults off this thread?
_________________________
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#2156865 - 09/24/13 01:56 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21291
Loc: Oakland
I have stated before that there are two standards: Just intonation and equal temperament. These exist by their very nature. Other temperaments are defined by them. The number of beats is the variation from just intonation. The number of cents is the variation from equal temperament.

None of this is to be construed as an endorsement of any temperament. It is just how things are.

One final point: Most instruments do not have any fixed temperament. Even if they do, they are not necessary defined closely. For instance, a pedal harp is supposed to be tuned to a specific temperament which depends on the pedal mechanism, but may vary according to how accurately it is made, or any number of other factors which may not be immediately evident.
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#2156882 - 09/24/13 02:55 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
If you mean the one used by all major western recording studios, concert halls, tuned percussion manufacturers, broadcasting companies, the default on all electronic instruments, etcetc.

There is. Has been for generations.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2156893 - 09/24/13 03:14 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: rxd]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: rxd
If you mean the one used by all major western recording studios, concert halls, tuned percussion manufacturers, broadcasting companies, the default on all electronic instruments, etcetc.

There is. Has been for generations.


Right.

I'm interested to see what the proponents of UT's have to say about it, as they have been disparaging of that standard.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#2156903 - 09/24/13 03:34 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
wouter79 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 3460
I see at least two questions

1. standard of tuning; something that is a failsafe

I think "failsafe" is the selling point of ET. At least everything sounds the same amount out of tune, so it's consistent. It seems a good fit for romantic, jazz and modern stuff that has dissonant chords and uses different keys without intending to change sharpness of the sound. ET seems less fit for classic and baroque stuff where composers DID use UT and used these changes. ET then still is 'failsafe' but the player then has somehow to compensate for the loss in tonal changes.

2. upon which all musicians can ultimately rely

I don't think it's that easy, musicians will do their best to get a nice performance, so if UT gives them an edge in a particular performance they will consider it. I doubt however that much performers and listeners really bother about, or hear the difference ET-UT.
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#2156932 - 09/24/13 04:39 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
RonTuner Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1626
Loc: Chicagoland
Hey Jim!

I was actually thinking of starting a thread introducing a "functional ET" based on margin of error - what actually gets tuned in the real world by those aiming at ET.

Consider this target:


Perfect score! All the arrows are in the middle... (Pretend there are as many arrows as notes in the temperament.) Now what's the margin for error for that yellow circle - 1 cent, 1/2 cent? In reality, for the piano to be in ET, the arrows would have to be "Robin Hood style" - splitting each other to fit in a circle the diameter of the arrow - zero margin for error.

We established in the other thread that there is some... slush in the actual placement of ET on real pianos. 1 cent, 2 cents or more for a note or two? And then there are "ET only" techs happy to hit arrows into the blue or black target areas and call it a day...

That would seem to indicate that quite a few temperaments fit in your ideal "standard"...

With that in mind, here is something for you electronic tuning types to try as an ET replacement - all the standard warnings apply as using a machine to set ET on a piano.

Koval variable temperament, 1.3 strength

C 1.3
C# -.17
D .52
D# .78
E -.52
F 1.3
F# -.35
G .87
G# .35
A 0.0
A# 1.13
B -.65

Major thirds range from 11.9 cents wide of just to 15.2 cents wide.

Obviously, the tighter your tuning standards are for open string tuning (4 lights on SAT, full blush RCT, 0.0 Verituner etc..) the cleaner the effect. Simply put, a few keys at the top of the circle play a little "warmer", a few at the bottom are a touch "edgier" and the rest are ETish. Clear to experience the difference by playing Bmaj, Cmaj, C#maj triads in a row.

What I hear back from clients is that my tunings are warmer than other techs. This is my standard in use all over town. The concept is to target in the direction of a mild WT in order to prevent a Reverse Well by accident when the margin for error comes into play.


Ron Koval
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#2156986 - 09/24/13 05:43 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1635
Loc: Conway, AR USA

Question:

Equal Temperament is a relative term. That is, relative to the temperaments which preceded it. The Robin Hood arrow analogy attempts to define it exclusively as perfect temperament. In an imperfect world no temperament whatsoever will be perfect. Having said this, if we are not going to call it Equal Temperament, then what shall we?
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#2157038 - 09/24/13 06:51 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor

Should there still be a universally-accepted standard of tuning; something that is a failsafe upon which all musicians can ultimately rely?


Why, certainly. All they have to do is accept the loss of variety. The desire for universal runs somewhat opposite to the drive for unique, and musical art tends to benefit from unique, not sameness. Do we not enjoy different artists performing the same works? Is it too complex a chore to enjoy the same work in a variety of tunings? The amount of harmonic color in a triad is very much like the amount of salt in a dish. Some want everything to taste the same, others like to sense the balance and interplay of various sensations. I favor the latter, as it is more complex.

"Failsafe" is probably as tight a description for artistic loss as we are likely to find. If the performer isn't taking chances, it is a dead show.
regards,

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#2157069 - 09/24/13 08:25 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: bkw58]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: bkw58

Question:

Equal Temperament is a relative term. That is, relative to the temperaments which preceded it. The Robin Hood arrow analogy attempts to define it exclusively as perfect temperament. In an imperfect world no temperament whatsoever will be perfect. Having said this, if we are not going to call it Equal Temperament, then what shall we?


Absolutely. Generally speaking, I think most here who advocate the use of ET concede that it isn't perfect. I always refer to it as a series of relatively consistent compromises, or, equally out of tune.
_________________________
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#2157070 - 09/24/13 08:27 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Ed Foote]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Ed Foote
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor

Should there still be a universally-accepted standard of tuning; something that is a failsafe upon which all musicians can ultimately rely?


Why, certainly. All they have to do is accept the loss of variety. The desire for universal runs somewhat opposite to the drive for unique, and musical art tends to benefit from unique, not sameness. Do we not enjoy different artists performing the same works? Is it too complex a chore to enjoy the same work in a variety of tunings? The amount of harmonic color in a triad is very much like the amount of salt in a dish. Some want everything to taste the same, others like to sense the balance and interplay of various sensations. I favor the latter, as it is more complex.

"Failsafe" is probably as tight a description for artistic loss as we are likely to find. If the performer isn't taking chances, it is a dead show.
regards,


A solo performer, perhaps, but if you've got a symphony orchestra and a cast of singers in an opera, perhaps not.

To me, there's a difference.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#2157072 - 09/24/13 08:31 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
daniokeeper Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 1067
Loc: PA
What's wrong with the artist giving "informed consent"? After all, they are supposed to be professionals. If they don't understand the difference between ET and UTs, they should make in effort to learn at least a little about it, IMO.

Further, why should an artist be limited? If he/she wants ET, fine. If he/she wants a UT, fine.

Btw, there's ET, and then there's ET. There can be all sorts of legitimate variations in stretch choices. Should there be only one acceptable amount of octave stretch in all circumstances? How far should this standardization go?

Voicing... Should all pianos be voiced the same way? Do we want only one standardized voice for all pianos that all manufacturers, and their technicians, should adhere to?

Should we have one standard wood finish? Should all pianos be ebony colored? Or, dark walnut?

Only one standard touchweight?


Edited by daniokeeper (09/24/13 08:53 PM)
Edit Reason: spelling
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#2157173 - 09/25/13 12:01 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1635
Loc: Conway, AR USA

After a lengthy discussion with my Better Half, I'll be doing good if any one temperament can be made the standard in my own house. Good night sleep
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicæ

"Not to know what took place before you were born is to remain forever a child." - Cicero

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#2157251 - 09/25/13 05:43 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7238
Loc: France
WHat are we talking of standards.

Music that I receive when I did not ask just leaved the 3 chords pattern for a 2 chords one.

Rhythm have gone to 120 bps 2/2 so some tuner pretend you can learn to count beat by remembering of that 120 pulse.

out of tuneless that relates to UT's is not appreciated by pianists as they need to play a whole range of music .

Itmay be done on ancien instruments in a particular context, never was asked on a modern one. If I would tune one the pianist would play and consider it as sloppy , most of the time.

Too stretched tunings as well can be considered out of standard tune.





Edited by Olek (09/25/13 05:47 AM)
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#2157682 - 09/25/13 09:50 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
Make your tuning fit your customer's needs(wants, desires). If you can play a pretty song after you finish tuning the piano, and it makes her cry, then you have done your job.
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#2157731 - 09/25/13 11:45 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
peekay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 184
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor

A solo performer, perhaps, but if you've got a symphony orchestra and a cast of singers in an opera, perhaps not.

To me, there's a difference.

The big irony is that a cast of opera singers, left to themselves in close harmony, would naturally sing to just intonation -- not equal temperament.
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#2157742 - 09/26/13 12:28 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: peekay]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: peekay
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor

A solo performer, perhaps, but if you've got a symphony orchestra and a cast of singers in an opera, perhaps not.

To me, there's a difference.

The big irony is that a cast of opera singers, left to themselves in close harmony, would naturally sing to just intonation -- not equal temperament.


It would be a great argument if it were true. It's a common assumption.
Listen carefully. In my experience, the major thirds as sung by professional opera principals and chorus tend to be wider than ET. The strings in the orchestra do the same thing if you listen. (they also do it if you don't listen).

It is barbershop that tends toward purer M3rds but not all the time.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2157755 - 09/26/13 12:59 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
peekay Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/13
Posts: 184
Actually, it is true. Basically any unaccompanied (a cappella) singing will naturally tend to just intonation or other natural temperaments (e.g., pythagorean).

Yes, in our "modern" times, opera singers (and violinists) who are trained to be part of an orchestra are also "trained" to sing/play in equal temperament. But leave them alone, unaccompanied by a tempered instrument, and sooner or later they will gravitate to some form of just intonation (which there are many).

There have been a lot of research into this phenomena. Here's a good recent one from the Norwegian Academy of Music through observations of some of the best classical vocal ensembles in the world:

http://musicandpractice.org/musicandpractice/article/view/18/6

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#2157769 - 09/26/13 01:43 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Yes, I've read that too. Many things appear true on paper. It's good to hear that the subject is being addressed at least at a local level but if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Nobody's complaining about the intonation of a good orchestra or opera group. It's not the problem.

I only ask you all to listen for yourself. Recorded or live, (preferably). It is readily discernible to me.

And where on earth does anybody get the idea that Pythagorean is a "natural" temperament and what does that mean anyway? I hope you didn't imply that the arrangement of the 12 notes cunningly called just intonation was another natural temperament. That surely would be a readily apparent contradiction in terms. So is the idea that there are many forms of just intonation. Just is just.

I'm not sure I want my opera experience to sound the same as my barbershop experience.

Has anybody ever attempted to tune a simple major scale without the need for something to be averaged?. Even a seemingly simple diatonic peal of 8 bells has to be tempered on at the very least a few notes. Ask Barry at the Whitechapel foundry.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2157856 - 09/26/13 07:06 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Mark R. Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1937
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Thank you, rxd. I thought I was the only one to have heard several a-capella choirs sing M3s that are at least as wide as ET, and often wider. Nothing just about them. And these are not orchestra musicians that have somehow been "spoiled" by years of ET "training".

For those interested, I have an even simpler example than rxd's diatonic peal of 8 bells, from my own experience. Even a simple pentatonic wind chime, the pipes tuned for example to D, E, G, A and B, must have some tempered notes (i.e. some intervals will always beat), because some of the overtone ratios don't line up perfectly. In the above example:
1) the E can be tuned as a "major wholetone" (9/8) to the D, making it beatless to the A, but beating (narrow) against G and B. Or...
2) E can be tuned down by a syntonic comma, making it a "minor wholetone" (10/9) to the D, beatless to G and B, but now beating (wide) against A. Or...
3) E can be tuned as as a compromise between the two, e.g. an ET wholetone to D, now almost beatless against G, A and B.

(Been there, cut and fine-tuned copper pipes... choices, choices, choices, even on five little pieces of pipe. Looks nice, sounds quite OK, but there's nothing "just" about that E.)


Edited by Mark R. (09/26/13 07:08 AM)
Edit Reason: closed quotation marks
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#2157863 - 09/26/13 07:37 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7238
Loc: France
Solo violin will enlarge the M3 as a natural melodic tendency.

context wise
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#2157895 - 09/26/13 08:56 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Having been involved in major recordings of piano trios I find the string players rarely precisely match the pitches of the piano. Nor is it necessary or even desirable within limits. They are on a differing tonal plane, somehow. the tone of each is so different. the same thing happens with singers. That inherent flexibility pf tone is part of what makes a fine piano such an ideal collaborative instrument. That is a fine piano. A poor toned piano can create problems where they needn't exist. A fine pianist capable of grading the tone color to allow others in the ensemble this freedom is another essential.
That may be why equal temperament continues to be be found ideal or at least eminently workable.

That's one of the glories of the medium. A violin or cello can soar in their own continuous ribbons of string intonation that doesn't necessarily have to totally agree with the pianos' succession of notes which is more like a row of pearls, if I may wax somewhat poetic, there is lots of musical room between them.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2157912 - 09/26/13 09:20 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: rxd]
Ed Foote Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/03
Posts: 1101
Loc: Tennessee
Originally Posted By: rxd
Having been involved in major recordings of piano trios I find the string players rarely precisely match the pitches of the piano. Nor is it necessary or even desirable within limits. They are on a differing tonal plane, somehow. the tone of each is so different. the same thing happens with singers. That inherent flexibility pf tone is part of what makes a fine piano such an ideal collaborative instrument.


Greetings,
I wonder how many string players have actually had experience with the intonational landscape provided by a well-tempered piano. The ones I encounter have a far easier time playing "in tune" with a palette of increasing thirds than they do with strict ET. I consider ignorance to be the prime motivator, as very, very, few string players could give you a definition of temperament or why we have to have it.

I have also noticed that when there is a piano involved with a string quartet, the intonation goes out the window as soon as the piano begins playing. The players tell me that playing with a piano requires they forget about what each other is doing and try to match to the piano. A mild WT seems to allow them more room for expression, and their harmony amongst themselves is more accurate.

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#2157928 - 09/26/13 09:55 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
As a professional singer (hence the user ID), RXD is correct. Just intonation maybe the tendency, but we never really get there on our own.

All of our lives, our pitch reference has almost exclusively been a piano, and while some believe there's such a thing as "perfect pitch," it is in reality pitch memory. Some of us have a more refined sense of it than others, and what we remember is what we hear - primarily from a piano.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#2157963 - 09/26/13 11:08 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
All of our lives, our pitch reference has almost exclusively been a piano, ..., - primarily from a piano.

For a vocalist, I believe that is probably true. Introduction to singing is often in a choral tradition, accompanied by a fixed pitch, keyboard instrument.

But, instrumentalists are trained and 'grow up' without the influence of a fixed pitch instrument. Being accompanied by a piano is a very minor experience compared to being in a band or orchestra. The major influence affecting the concept of intonation is developed through the means of ensemble, rather than tempering intonation to a fixed pitch instrument.
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#2157984 - 09/26/13 12:01 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
It's unfortunate, Ed, that most piano quintets are made up of a star pianist and a star string quartet. For that reason, I don't think I've ever heard a truly successful colaboration, mainly, I suppose because I avoid them, particularly when the quartet takes its name from the name of the first violinist.

A committed string quartet will have their own intonation patterns, often with a shifting pitch base It is too much to ask them to relinquish this highly developed quality in favour of any fixed intonation. Nor should we ask this of them. A mentor of mine when I was a teenager was a violinist who was instructed as a student at the Royal. College of m over 100 years ago now, never to play with piano accompaniment if he wanted to become a successful string quartet player.

Conversely a piano trio is usually also a self contained unit and it's musicians well used to listening with a piano constantly in the context. This makes a huge difference. That plus the pianist gets to choose his piano from a bank of pianos that have been already preselected for their qualities for concert use. They know I will be able to do things with the tuning of such a piano and still stay within the law since I must also think of string players' tendencies in melodic intonation.

For me, while the piano trio is a flexible format, the piano quintet and even quartet seems unwieldy to me, perhaps from hearing too much of the situation I just described in the first paragraph.

Have string quartet cellists where you are all developed the fetish of leaving strings ringing like they do here? Fiddlers can get away with it but cello strings ring 3-4 times longer. Can be effective but mostly not. I must have come into contact with 6-7 string quartets so far this year and they all do the same. must be something in the water.

Schubert writes well for piano quintet. Trout in particular. The way the piano part is often written like another single line instrument in octaves contributes to its cohesiveness. That plus using a viol is more coherent with piano sound somehow and lends a binding effect when it's tone is present anywhere in the texture.


Edited by rxd (09/26/13 12:25 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2157999 - 09/26/13 12:17 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
All of our lives, our pitch reference has almost exclusively been a piano, ..., - primarily from a piano.

For a vocalist, I believe that is probably true. Introduction to singing is often in a choral tradition, accompanied by a fixed pitch, keyboard instrument.

But, instrumentalists are trained and 'grow up' without the influence of a fixed pitch instrument. Being accompanied by a piano is a very minor experience compared to being in a band or orchestra. The major influence affecting the concept of intonation is developed through the means of ensemble, rather than tempering intonation to a fixed pitch instrument.


So very true, Marty. The local band I was brought up in had a championship professional euphonium player as conductor. He would often play when conducting was unnecessary and instil in us all a sense of good tone quality and intonation. I noticed for some time now that too many band directors no longer play and so students don't get a good example set before them.

I don't remember anybody teaching us or even speaking about intonation. We just, as you say, "grew up with it".
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2158031 - 09/26/13 01:30 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: rxd]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: rxd
I don't remember anybody teaching us or even speaking about intonation. We just, as you say, "grew up with it".

You weren't hammered with "listen, listen, listen?" WOW !!!

Playing in tune was stressed, in band, all the time. It's the whole concept of Bb tuning. Temperament, or "a temperament" was an unknown concept. In tune was the goal! Though, even to our developing sense of intonation, we could surely tell when a piano was out of tune. That unison thing, ya know. Aargh!

Bb was the center of our universe. Life deviated from the great and cosmic center of our lives!

Ah, such fond memories. grin
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2158047 - 09/26/13 01:52 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Yes, I remember now. This was a village under a mountain. The BBC radio antenna was atop this mountain so they had no radio and no television reception. They still spoke King James' bible style English. So the word I heard there was "Harken".

There were only 2-3 of us 10-12 year olds in a band of adults so most of what we learned was by osmosis. We got paid the same as the rest of the band for all engagements so we were the richest kids on the block.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
#2158048 - 09/26/13 01:53 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7238
Loc: France
personally I was trained to sing the A 440 once a day at last, during lunch ! control at the piano .
_________________________
Isaac OLEG - http://picasaweb.google.fr/PianoOleg pro

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#2158059 - 09/26/13 02:08 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
I developed a good pitch memory automatically except it was at A=457 old band pitch, a throwback to some old mitary pitch that the instruments were built in
When I switched to 440 i Iost that questionable skill.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



Top
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