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...
...[quote=rxd]Although this is a bit of a red herring in this thread, Lana must have lost the tenuous acoustical connection any opera singer has with the accompanying unit as soon as the assembled mob started behaving as though she had just scored the operatic equivalent of a home run. Considering how much of the carefully buit up drama would have been lost had she simplistically gone from the third degree of the scale to the fourth degree "perfectly" whatever that means in this context. In fact, the Bb is better regarded as the sixth degree of Dm because that's where the harmony is going. It has become part of a diminished chord. alternately, if we were to regard the Bb as an implied flattened 9th as current jazz harmonic theory would have us regard it, there is even more freedom of intonation, particularly that it is going to a Dm sus. I can hear that she knows that, even though she is out there all alone with nothing to guide her but her pitch memory and an overriding sense of the dramatic.
How much can she hear while she is producing a sound like that?? Anybody here done any singing at that level?
As we used to say, better to be sharp than out of tune. Many a true word Is spoken in jest.
A dramatic pitch vibrato at that level is behaving, acoustically, like a trill so any hint of a note higher sounds legitimate.
Given that the voice is on a different tonal plane than the orchestra, which can barely be heard anyway at that point. (the predominant first violin in the ensuing tutti seems caught up in the excitement), she is literally out there on her own and does a superb job despite the heat of the television lighting.
I also speak as one who in another lifetime sat in opera house orchestra pits, often playing the same notes an octave lower than the singer as part of the supporting harmony. As I was told all those years ago, they need something to be sharp to in those moments. I also worked in units where it was a requirement for the lead trumpet to be just a trace sharp for the more dramatic moments.
What we heard is standard practice in hot and emotionally charged opera houses the world over.
And now, back to your scheduled program. Thank you, rxd, very nice comment. As you say... common practice is "...better to be sharp than out of tune", and I still cannot get used to that, anyway... How about the sixth at 3:17 (link below), it has a fourth in the middle (the tonic) as mentioned by Tunewerk (down below): would you like it pure? Was that interval to be tension-less, would that express the meaning of that passage? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFsljT1362s Regards, a.c. [quote=alfredo capurso] Which member of the chorus do you want me to listen too? The chorus effect allows gloriously expanded intervals. With a chorus such as this, there is not the tension that would be present were the extremes of those intervals transferred to a keyboard. It would merely sound extremely out of tune, melodically and harmonically. It is difficult for me to imagine a chorus so lethargic as to sing this anywhere close to just intervals. This chorus is not a slave to any temperament and the allusion is not lost. All these people are singing simply what they collectively hear to be right. That we might interpret it as sharp, flat, wide or narrow is furthest from their minds. Since you refer to an earlier post from a third party about the discovery of still intervals, I would add that although it is a novel revelation to hear a truly harmonically dead third, major or minor on a static keyboard, melodically lifeless, for the first time, it's inversion becomes a glorious melodic sixth, minor or major that stands up vertically all by itself. What a fascinating mixture of flies and ointment temperaments are.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Now, jokes aside, even today I can only guess my pre-form and hope that the final tuning, after unisons, is the one I like. And, as you say, there might always be a point of imperfection, depending on the "glass". I find your observation reasonable but... I would proceed neatly, let's first sort out a reliable and practicable standard reference, then the "tolerance", which I do not think is a problem... actually, how many centuries of tolerance can we count? :-)
It would be more productive if instead of producing verbiage like that you would post your progressively tuned M3/M6, that you asked other people to post, yourself. Even if you have to guess your "pre-form", whatever that is. Kees Kees, I hope you don't mind if I guess what is "more productive", and how and when. For the time being, you may ponder on my proposal (below).
Tunewerk, perhaps the question is this: can you tune progressive RBI's and (aural) beatless 12ths (aurally)?
Jeff, can you?
Can you? Still waiting for your recording of progressive M3/M6's. Kees Thank you, Kees, for enquiring. In these years I am meeting colleagues and friends on a one-to-one basis, not necessarely (read: not only) for business, for more than one reason. I too am curious about analyzer apps., about their limits and approximation. I would propose you a rendez-vous, either where you live or in London, how would you like that? And if it is Canada, we could involve one colleague/friend of mine from Manitoba? Hi rxd, I'll be back later... get dinner ready and read your post one more time :-) .
alfredo
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Yes, Isaac, perhaps I see what you mean and I would not disagree, as individual we are enabled to refer to our own sense of musicality, and this may add character and liveliness to both the piano and our practice. Although this is a bit of a red herring in this thread, Lana must have lost the tenuous acoustical connection any opera singer has with the accompanying unit as soon as the assembled mob started behaving as though she had just scored the operatic equivalent of a home run. Considering how much of the carefully buit up drama would have been lost had she simplistically gone from the third degree of the scale to the fourth degree "perfectly" whatever that means in this context. In fact, the Bb is better regarded as the sixth degree of Dm because that's where the harmony is going. It has become part of a diminished chord. alternately, if we were to regard the Bb as an implied flattened 9th as current jazz harmonic theory would have us regard it, there is even more freedom of intonation, particularly that it is going to a Dm sus. I can hear that she knows that, even though she is out there all alone with nothing to guide her but her pitch memory and an overriding sense of the dramatic.
How much can she hear while she is producing a sound like that?? Anybody here done any singing at that level?
As we used to say, better to be sharp than out of tune. Many a true word Is spoken in jest.
A dramatic pitch vibrato at that level is behaving, acoustically, like a trill so any hint of a note higher sounds legitimate.
Given that the voice is on a different tonal plane than the orchestra, which can barely be heard anyway at that point. (the predominant first violin in the ensuing tutti seems caught up in the excitement), she is literally out there on her own and does a superb job despite the heat of the television lighting.
I also speak as one who in another lifetime sat in opera house orchestra pits, often playing the same notes an octave lower than the singer as part of the supporting harmony. As I was told all those years ago, they need something to be sharp to in those moments. I also worked in units where it was a requirement for the lead trumpet to be just a trace sharp for the more dramatic moments.
What we heard is standard practice in hot and emotionally charged opera houses the world over.
And now, back to your scheduled program. Thank you, rxd, very nice comment. As you say... common practice is "...better to be sharp than out of tune", and I still cannot get used to that, anyway... How about the sixth at 3:17 (link below), it has a fourth in the middle (the tonic) as mentioned by Tunewerk (down below): would you like it pure? Was that interval to be tension-less, would that express the meaning of that passage? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFsljT1362s Regards, a.c. When you please your customers, repeatedly, THAT should be your "standard". Hi Gary, Perhaps you meant to say ...your "standard".. customers!! :-) I think that If your customers were to discover a tuning standard which is higher than yours they might decide to change their usual tuner. This is to say that if you please your customer + the standard you can refer to is objectively good... all the better? What do you mean by "typical"? I thought the typical "precise point" - in the "standard" context - were beatless octaves. What I mean by typical 12ths vs. 4ths/5ths is the 12th - in my experience - is a narrower bandwidth on almost all pianos than 4ths and 5ths. This leads to a narrower range of acceptability when tuning 12ths and may make it a better marker for stretch. The standard model has meant beatless octaves in the past, but now most technicians - at least here in the NE United States - do not take the standard model to mean beatless octaves. Only that mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two - or the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps, which is true. Beyond that basic definition, tuning becomes a very complex thing. I was finishing a tuning tonight with extra time to spare and I tried reinventing my temperament method. It was really interesting to me how it changed the way I heard what I was doing and made me reconsider everything that I think about tone and temperament. It made me realize first, how terribly conditioned we are. Equal temperament is truly the temperament where nothing is really in tune. My ear wants to hear purer intervals than what ET will allow me to tune (in any form of stretch). I practiced tuning what my ear really wanted to hear to see how far off I would be from ET, and it was drastic. I found myself wanting to hear pure 6ths. It is a very beautiful tone, especially with an inner 4th. What a thing of beauty we are missing every day with equal temperament. Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it. As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time. Tunewerk, I acknowledge what you are saying, I am not sure of where that "...mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two..." comes from, and ".. the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps...", is perhaps "general" but (apparently) not true. Perhaps it is not "...beyond" but because of "that basic definition..." that "...tuning becomes a very complex thing."? As for the other things you say... let me help you... trying not to be vicious. :-) You lament having to temper... but that is not only the ET case, that is the case for all scales where integer_ratio intervals are... tempered. The ET you mention is only the nth pseudo-solution, and it came after many other temperaments that had lost the 6th you are missing. And you perfectly know, add a few notes and make your pure 6th become a 12th and... you would hear a desperate donkey singing. ..."Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it."... No way I can be sure I get what you mean, although I have re-read those lines many times. Perhaps you say that the octave needs to be stretched due to iH? That "stretch" is not "tempering"? ..."As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time." Yes, also "feeling safe", for example, might be a question of what the individual prefers, some may not care at all, many make sure they have locked the door. Evviva le seste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDo8Iz8LzW4Which member of the chorus do you want me to listen too? The chorus effect allows gloriously expanded intervals. With a chorus such as this, there is not the tension that would be present were the extremes of those intervals transferred to a keyboard. It would merely sound extremely out of tune, melodically and harmonically. It is difficult for me to imagine a chorus so lethargic as to sing this anywhere close to just intervals. This chorus is not a slave to any temperament and the allusion is not lost.
All these people are singing simply what they collectively hear to be right. That we might interpret it as sharp, flat, wide or narrow is furthest from their minds.
Since you refer to an earlier post from a third party about the discovery of still intervals, I would add that although it is a novel revelation to hear a truly harmonically dead third, major or minor on a static keyboard, melodically lifeless, for the first time, it's inversion becomes a glorious melodic sixth, minor or major that stands up vertically all by itself. What a fascinating mixture of flies and ointment temperaments are. I do not mind the intonation of that chorus, actually I was asking if you too hear a M6th as an interval that evokes hope, or as an exhortation, or something like a caress... in any case a beating interval that (like other RBIs), if it was just... it would sound empty and meaningless? If I may ask, what does that last sentence mean exactly..."What a fascinating mixture of flies and ointment....", you know my English isn't good enough, is it a linguistic subtlety that alludes to something in particular?
alfredo
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Alfredo, you can always welcome to come to my house for a cup of coffee and chat if you ever visit Australia.
Last edited by Chris Leslie; 11/06/13 08:22 PM.
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Yes, Isaac, perhaps I see what you mean and I would not disagree, as individual we are enabled to refer to our own sense of musicality, and this may add character and liveliness to both the piano and our practice. Although this is a bit of a red herring in this thread, Lana must have lost the tenuous acoustical connection any opera singer has with the accompanying unit as soon as the assembled mob started behaving as though she had just scored the operatic equivalent of a home run. Considering how much of the carefully buit up drama would have been lost had she simplistically gone from the third degree of the scale to the fourth degree "perfectly" whatever that means in this context. In fact, the Bb is better regarded as the sixth degree of Dm because that's where the harmony is going. It has become part of a diminished chord. alternately, if we were to regard the Bb as an implied flattened 9th as current jazz harmonic theory would have us regard it, there is even more freedom of intonation, particularly that it is going to a Dm sus. I can hear that she knows that, even though she is out there all alone with nothing to guide her but her pitch memory and an overriding sense of the dramatic.
How much can she hear while she is producing a sound like that?? Anybody here done any singing at that level?
As we used to say, better to be sharp than out of tune. Many a true word Is spoken in jest.
A dramatic pitch vibrato at that level is behaving, acoustically, like a trill so any hint of a note higher sounds legitimate.
Given that the voice is on a different tonal plane than the orchestra, which can barely be heard anyway at that point. (the predominant first violin in the ensuing tutti seems caught up in the excitement), she is literally out there on her own and does a superb job despite the heat of the television lighting.
I also speak as one who in another lifetime sat in opera house orchestra pits, often playing the same notes an octave lower than the singer as part of the supporting harmony. As I was told all those years ago, they need something to be sharp to in those moments. I also worked in units where it was a requirement for the lead trumpet to be just a trace sharp for the more dramatic moments.
What we heard is standard practice in hot and emotionally charged opera houses the world over.
And now, back to your scheduled program. Thank you, rxd, very nice comment. As you say... common practice is "...better to be sharp than out of tune", and I still cannot get used to that, anyway... How about the sixth at 3:17 (link below), it has a fourth in the middle (the tonic) as mentioned by Tunewerk (down below): would you like it pure? Was that interval to be tension-less, would that express the meaning of that passage? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFsljT1362s Regards, a.c. When you please your customers, repeatedly, THAT should be your "standard". Hi Gary, Perhaps you meant to say ...your "standard".. customers!! :-) I think that If your customers were to discover a tuning standard which is higher than yours they might decide to change their usual tuner. This is to say that if you please your customer + the standard you can refer to is objectively good... all the better? What do you mean by "typical"? I thought the typical "precise point" - in the "standard" context - were beatless octaves. What I mean by typical 12ths vs. 4ths/5ths is the 12th - in my experience - is a narrower bandwidth on almost all pianos than 4ths and 5ths. This leads to a narrower range of acceptability when tuning 12ths and may make it a better marker for stretch. The standard model has meant beatless octaves in the past, but now most technicians - at least here in the NE United States - do not take the standard model to mean beatless octaves. Only that mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two - or the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps, which is true. Beyond that basic definition, tuning becomes a very complex thing. I was finishing a tuning tonight with extra time to spare and I tried reinventing my temperament method. It was really interesting to me how it changed the way I heard what I was doing and made me reconsider everything that I think about tone and temperament. It made me realize first, how terribly conditioned we are. Equal temperament is truly the temperament where nothing is really in tune. My ear wants to hear purer intervals than what ET will allow me to tune (in any form of stretch). I practiced tuning what my ear really wanted to hear to see how far off I would be from ET, and it was drastic. I found myself wanting to hear pure 6ths. It is a very beautiful tone, especially with an inner 4th. What a thing of beauty we are missing every day with equal temperament. Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it. As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time. Tunewerk, I acknowledge what you are saying, I am not sure of where that "...mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two..." comes from, and ".. the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps...", is perhaps "general" but (apparently) not true. Perhaps it is not "...beyond" but because of "that basic definition..." that "...tuning becomes a very complex thing."? As for the other things you say... let me help you... trying not to be vicious. :-) You lament having to temper... but that is not only the ET case, that is the case for all scales where integer_ratio intervals are... tempered. The ET you mention is only the nth pseudo-solution, and it came after many other temperaments that had lost the 6th you are missing. And you perfectly know, add a few notes and make your pure 6th become a 12th and... you would hear a desperate donkey singing. ..."Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it."... No way I can be sure I get what you mean, although I have re-read those lines many times. Perhaps you say that the octave needs to be stretched due to iH? That "stretch" is not "tempering"? ..."As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time." Yes, also "feeling safe", for example, might be a question of what the individual prefers, some may not care at all, many make sure they have locked the door. Evviva le seste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDo8Iz8LzW4Which member of the chorus do you want me to listen too? The chorus effect allows gloriously expanded intervals. With a chorus such as this, there is not the tension that would be present were the extremes of those intervals transferred to a keyboard. It would merely sound extremely out of tune, melodically and harmonically. It is difficult for me to imagine a chorus so lethargic as to sing this anywhere close to just intervals. This chorus is not a slave to any temperament and the allusion is not lost.
All these people are singing simply what they collectively hear to be right. That we might interpret it as sharp, flat, wide or narrow is furthest from their minds.
Since you refer to an earlier post from a third party about the discovery of still intervals, I would add that although it is a novel revelation to hear a truly harmonically dead third, major or minor on a static keyboard, melodically lifeless, for the first time, it's inversion becomes a glorious melodic sixth, minor or major that stands up vertically all by itself. What a fascinating mixture of flies and ointment temperaments are. I do not mind the intonation of that chorus, actually I was asking if you too hear a M6th as an interval that evokes hope, or as an exhortation, or something like a caress... in any case a beating interval that (like other RBIs), if it was just... it would sound empty and meaningless? If I may ask, what does that last sentence mean exactly..."What a fascinating mixture of flies and ointment....", you know my English isn't good enough, is it a linguistic subtlety that alludes to something in particular? I saw no evidence of a question this far off topic. . I'll close this by agreeing that hope is certainly expressed in the music at that point. It is standard practice (back on track) for opera composers to express in the music an opposite emotion to the predominant emotion of the text. Heightens the emotions. The english language idiom "fly in the ointment" refers to something good being spoiled by a minor blemish. This sentiment also appears in expanded form as " too many flies, not enough ointment" etc.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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Actually the saying "Fly in the Ointment" comes from the Bible:
"As dead flies give perfume a bad smell, so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor." NIV Ecclesiastes 10:1
I think it is very appopriate to what is going on in this Topic right now and yes, Alfredo, you are the Fly in the ointment.
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Something interesting from Samuel Wolfenden, which his book was first published in 1975,
"The temperament, by which some of the more used keys were favoured at the expense of others, had not long given place to the present plan when the writer had his first experience as a tuner, and there were still some middle-aged and elderly men, who were not able to adjust their minds and working habits to the new demands, and to whom the location of the "wolf" was a serious matter.
Presumably equal temperament is permanent, until such a time, if ever, as improved mechanism shall make "just intonation" possible."
Mark
Piano tuner technician
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Something interesting from Samuel Wolfenden, which his book was first published in 1975,
"The temperament, by which some of the more used keys were favoured at the expense of others, had not long given place to the present plan when the writer had his first experience as a tuner, and there were still some middle-aged and elderly men, who were not able to adjust their minds and working habits to the new demands, and to whom the location of the "wolf" was a serious matter.
Presumably equal temperament is permanent, until such a time, if ever, as improved mechanism shall make "just intonation" possible." Wolfenden was reprinted in 1975 and several other times from the original edition of 1916. Just to keep things in perspective.
Amanda Reckonwith
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.
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The STANDARD is the standard. It's fun to throw around these crazy ideas of creating a tuning that will satisfy every musician and their dog. But let's be honest with ourselves. We already know what the STANDARD is.
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...
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The STANDARD is the standard. It's fun to throw around these crazy ideas of creating a tuning that will satisfy every musician and their dog. But let's be honest with ourselves. We already know what the STANDARD is. Every time I see such a statement I am only persuaded to say that by creating such a standard and suppressing all knowledge about any other alternative, the standard itself is rarely achieved. Just look at Standard Pitch for example. A-440 has been the standard for nearly 100 years. It was adopted world wide in the late 1030's but how many people and places routinely and rather wantonly ignore it? The speed limit on a the highway is a standard but law enforcement has to have their own standard as to how much beyond that limit they will select to enforce the law. Otherwise, they would be pulling over nearly every vehicle. Simply by saying in nearly every book about piano tuning that there is only one way to tune a piano, the result is actually just about anything but that standard in the majority of cases. Let's say for example, as an analogy, you wanted to bake some fine pastry that takes knowledge, skill and experience to make the way a professional pastry chef does but you were given only a "guideline" recipe for it. Flour, sugar, salt, water, etc. Mix together, roll out, bake. That is all the chef thinks about but compare your results to his! Now, take as a hypothetical, every person who wants to learn to tune pianos is told that the "A440-A220" temperament is the best there is because it was promoted by the world's leading piano manufacturer. It is the ONLY way to tune a piano! Every attempt at tuning a piano of any type, anywhere and everywhere uses only that information and nothing else. Whatever those results would be on any piano anywhere at anytime would be considered to be the "Standard" but most of those results would fall far short of the author of that standard had in mind.
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I believe we could classify between different types as :
5 th and 4ths same size and tone.
5th and 4th progressive along the scale
5th an 4th progressive along the cycle of 5th
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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I believe we could classify between different types as :
5 th and 4ths same size and tone.
5th and 4th progressive along the scale
5th an 4th progressive along the cycle of 5th
Would #1 and #3 be ET and, if not, how to describe them other than UT?
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 140cm
Ibach, 1905 F-IV, 235cm
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I'll leave the answer to the pros  Where does come the subtle difference between tonalities that can be noticed there , without creating any trouble in chromatic passages ? To me the result of the fundamental tuning sequence, and the way the tuner listen while tuning : [video:youtube]B3CvoDLh2bU[/video]
Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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The STANDARD is the standard. It's fun to throw around these crazy ideas of creating a tuning that will satisfy every musician and their dog. But let's be honest with ourselves. We already know what the STANDARD is. Every time I see such a statement I am only persuaded to say that by creating such a standard and suppressing all knowledge about any other alternative, the standard itself is rarely achieved. Just look at Standard Pitch for example. A-440 has been the standard for nearly 100 years. It was adopted world wide in the late 1030's but how many people and places routinely and rather wantonly ignore it? The speed limit on a the highway is a standard but law enforcement has to have their own standard as to how much beyond that limit they will select to enforce the law. Otherwise, they would be pulling over nearly every vehicle. Simply by saying in nearly every book about piano tuning that there is only one way to tune a piano, the result is actually just about anything but that standard in the majority of cases. Let's say for example, as an analogy, you wanted to bake some fine pastry that takes knowledge, skill and experience to make the way a professional pastry chef does but you were given only a "guideline" recipe for it. Flour, sugar, salt, water, etc. Mix together, roll out, bake. That is all the chef thinks about but compare your results to his! Now, take as a hypothetical, every person who wants to learn to tune pianos is told that the "A440-A220" temperament is the best there is because it was promoted by the world's leading piano manufacturer. It is the ONLY way to tune a piano! Every attempt at tuning a piano of any type, anywhere and everywhere uses only that information and nothing else. Whatever those results would be on any piano anywhere at anytime would be considered to be the "Standard" but most of those results would fall far short of the author of that standard had in mind. What drivel! Bill, you have a strong preference for how you tune, but so what? It cannot be used as a standard. ET can and is. Other tunings can and are defined by the deviation from that standard. Just take a look at the Rolling Ball website. Again you are setting up a straw man to knock down. Anyone considering your approach to this subject should realize that you are not secure in your stand. Otherwise you would not resort to such a tactic over and over again.
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?
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Yes, Isaac, perhaps I see what you mean and I would not disagree, as individual we are enabled to refer to our own sense of musicality, and this may add character and liveliness to both the piano and our practice. Although this is a bit of a red herring in this thread, Lana must have lost the tenuous acoustical connection any opera singer has with the accompanying unit as soon as the assembled mob started behaving as though she had just scored the operatic equivalent of a home run. Considering how much of the carefully buit up drama would have been lost had she simplistically gone from the third degree of the scale to the fourth degree "perfectly" whatever that means in this context. In fact, the Bb is better regarded as the sixth degree of Dm because that's where the harmony is going. It has become part of a diminished chord. alternately, if we were to regard the Bb as an implied flattened 9th as current jazz harmonic theory would have us regard it, there is even more freedom of intonation, particularly that it is going to a Dm sus. I can hear that she knows that, even though she is out there all alone with nothing to guide her but her pitch memory and an overriding sense of the dramatic.
How much can she hear while she is producing a sound like that?? Anybody here done any singing at that level?
As we used to say, better to be sharp than out of tune. Many a true word Is spoken in jest.
A dramatic pitch vibrato at that level is behaving, acoustically, like a trill so any hint of a note higher sounds legitimate.
Given that the voice is on a different tonal plane than the orchestra, which can barely be heard anyway at that point. (the predominant first violin in the ensuing tutti seems caught up in the excitement), she is literally out there on her own and does a superb job despite the heat of the television lighting.
I also speak as one who in another lifetime sat in opera house orchestra pits, often playing the same notes an octave lower than the singer as part of the supporting harmony. As I was told all those years ago, they need something to be sharp to in those moments. I also worked in units where it was a requirement for the lead trumpet to be just a trace sharp for the more dramatic moments.
What we heard is standard practice in hot and emotionally charged opera houses the world over.
And now, back to your scheduled program. Thank you, rxd, very nice comment. As you say... common practice is "...better to be sharp than out of tune", and I still cannot get used to that, anyway... How about the sixth at 3:17 (link below), it has a fourth in the middle (the tonic) as mentioned by Tunewerk (down below): would you like it pure? Was that interval to be tension-less, would that express the meaning of that passage? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFsljT1362s Regards, a.c. When you please your customers, repeatedly, THAT should be your "standard". Hi Gary, Perhaps you meant to say ...your "standard".. customers!! :-) I think that If your customers were to discover a tuning standard which is higher than yours they might decide to change their usual tuner. This is to say that if you please your customer + the standard you can refer to is objectively good... all the better? What do you mean by "typical"? I thought the typical "precise point" - in the "standard" context - were beatless octaves. What I mean by typical 12ths vs. 4ths/5ths is the 12th - in my experience - is a narrower bandwidth on almost all pianos than 4ths and 5ths. This leads to a narrower range of acceptability when tuning 12ths and may make it a better marker for stretch. The standard model has meant beatless octaves in the past, but now most technicians - at least here in the NE United States - do not take the standard model to mean beatless octaves. Only that mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two - or the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps, which is true. Beyond that basic definition, tuning becomes a very complex thing. I was finishing a tuning tonight with extra time to spare and I tried reinventing my temperament method. It was really interesting to me how it changed the way I heard what I was doing and made me reconsider everything that I think about tone and temperament. It made me realize first, how terribly conditioned we are. Equal temperament is truly the temperament where nothing is really in tune. My ear wants to hear purer intervals than what ET will allow me to tune (in any form of stretch). I practiced tuning what my ear really wanted to hear to see how far off I would be from ET, and it was drastic. I found myself wanting to hear pure 6ths. It is a very beautiful tone, especially with an inner 4th. What a thing of beauty we are missing every day with equal temperament. Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it. As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time. Tunewerk, I acknowledge what you are saying, I am not sure of where that "...mathematically the piano is derived from the 12th root of two..." comes from, and ".. the general idea of the doubling of frequency every 12 steps...", is perhaps "general" but (apparently) not true. Perhaps it is not "...beyond" but because of "that basic definition..." that "...tuning becomes a very complex thing."? As for the other things you say... let me help you... trying not to be vicious. :-) You lament having to temper... but that is not only the ET case, that is the case for all scales where integer_ratio intervals are... tempered. The ET you mention is only the nth pseudo-solution, and it came after many other temperaments that had lost the 6th you are missing. And you perfectly know, add a few notes and make your pure 6th become a 12th and... you would hear a desperate donkey singing. ..."Second, it came to me how damaging this idea of temperament and then stretch is. They are not separate concepts. The temperament should extend to the whole piano. Stretch is dictated by the instrument, not something imposed upon it."... No way I can be sure I get what you mean, although I have re-read those lines many times. Perhaps you say that the octave needs to be stretched due to iH? That "stretch" is not "tempering"? ..."As much as I might be attracting vicious disagreement, I believe we are completely and hopelessly conditioned. To be 'in-tune' is just a question of what the listener prefers. Only one thing can be truly in tune at a time." Yes, also "feeling safe", for example, might be a question of what the individual prefers, some may not care at all, many make sure they have locked the door. Evviva le seste: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDo8Iz8LzW4Which member of the chorus do you want me to listen too? The chorus effect allows gloriously expanded intervals. With a chorus such as this, there is not the tension that would be present were the extremes of those intervals transferred to a keyboard. It would merely sound extremely out of tune, melodically and harmonically. It is difficult for me to imagine a chorus so lethargic as to sing this anywhere close to just intervals. This chorus is not a slave to any temperament and the allusion is not lost.
All these people are singing simply what they collectively hear to be right. That we might interpret it as sharp, flat, wide or narrow is furthest from their minds.
Since you refer to an earlier post from a third party about the discovery of still intervals, I would add that although it is a novel revelation to hear a truly harmonically dead third, major or minor on a static keyboard, melodically lifeless, for the first time, it's inversion becomes a glorious melodic sixth, minor or major that stands up vertically all by itself. What a fascinating mixture of flies and ointment temperaments are. I do not mind the intonation of that chorus, actually I was asking if you too hear a M6th as an interval that evokes hope, or as an exhortation, or something like a caress... in any case a beating interval that (like other RBIs), if it was just... it would sound empty and meaningless? If I may ask, what does that last sentence mean exactly..."What a fascinating mixture of flies and ointment....", you know my English isn't good enough, is it a linguistic subtlety that alludes to something in particular? I saw no evidence of a question this far off topic. . I'll close this by agreeing that hope is certainly expressed in the music at that point. It is standard practice (back on track) for opera composers to express in the music an opposite emotion to the predominant emotion of the text. Heightens the emotions. The english language idiom "fly in the ointment" refers to something good being spoiled by a minor blemish. This sentiment also appears in expanded form as " too many flies, not enough ointment" etc. Thank you, rxd, for your delucidation. Perhaps I'll close that with a question: which is the "minor blemish" you would think of, when it comes to temperaments? Alfredo, you can always welcome to come to my house for a cup of coffee and chat if you ever visit Australia. Thank you, Chris, I do hope we can meet sometime... Regards, a.c. .
alfredo
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The STANDARD is the standard. It's fun to throw around these crazy ideas of creating a tuning that will satisfy every musician and their dog. But let's be honest with ourselves. We already know what the STANDARD is. Honest with your... dog, what would you say the STANDARD is, Gary? .
alfredo
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The STANDARD is the standard. It's fun to throw around these crazy ideas of creating a tuning that will satisfy every musician and their dog. But let's be honest with ourselves. We already know what the STANDARD is. Every time I see such a statement I am only persuaded to say that by creating such a standard and suppressing all knowledge about any other alternative, the standard itself is rarely achieved. Just look at Standard Pitch for example. A-440 has been the standard for nearly 100 years. It was adopted world wide in the late 1030's but how many people and places routinely and rather wantonly ignore it? The speed limit on a the highway is a standard but law enforcement has to have their own standard as to how much beyond that limit they will select to enforce the law. Otherwise, they would be pulling over nearly every vehicle. Simply by saying in nearly every book about piano tuning that there is only one way to tune a piano, the result is actually just about anything but that standard in the majority of cases. Let's say for example, as an analogy, you wanted to bake some fine pastry that takes knowledge, skill and experience to make the way a professional pastry chef does but you were given only a "guideline" recipe for it. Flour, sugar, salt, water, etc. Mix together, roll out, bake. That is all the chef thinks about but compare your results to his! Now, take as a hypothetical, every person who wants to learn to tune pianos is told that the "A440-A220" temperament is the best there is because it was promoted by the world's leading piano manufacturer. It is the ONLY way to tune a piano! Every attempt at tuning a piano of any type, anywhere and everywhere uses only that information and nothing else. Whatever those results would be on any piano anywhere at anytime would be considered to be the "Standard" but most of those results would fall far short of the author of that standard had in mind. Hi Bill, You wrote: ..."Every time I see such a statement I am only persuaded to say that by creating such a standard and suppressing all knowledge about any other alternative, the standard itself is rarely achieved."... IMO, the two things are not exclusive, one can have knowledge of the standard and about "any other alternative"; perhaps "how" or "how often" they are actually achieved is a different matter? ..."Just look at Standard Pitch for example. A-440 has been the standard for nearly 100 years. It was adopted world wide in the late 1030's but how many people and places routinely and rather wantonly ignore it?"... Well, there will always be extreme cases, but the scenery would be even worst if we did not have a reference Pitch. ..."The speed limit on a the highway is a standard but law enforcement has to have their own standard as to how much beyond that limit they will select to enforce the law. Otherwise, they would be pulling over nearly every vehicle."... In deed, Jeff was also mentioning "tolerance", and we see that the musical world is pretty tolerant already, I do not see any problem. ..."Simply by saying in nearly every book about piano tuning that there is only one way to tune a piano, the result is actually just about anything but that standard in the majority of cases."... If you are referring to ET, perhaps that is due to the impracticability of the first ET model. In any case, I do not think a Standard should be understood as the Law, but as a reliable reference that anyone might be enabled to put into practice. ..."Let's say for example, as an analogy, you wanted to bake some fine pastry that takes knowledge, skill and experience to make the way a professional pastry chef does but you were given only a "guideline" recipe for it. Flour, sugar, salt, water, etc. Mix together, roll out, bake. That is all the chef thinks about but compare your results to his!"... OK, but... were we given the "guideline" for tuning 88 keys? IMO, this is the bottom problem, the few things we were told be enough for achieving a... faulty standard-model. Really, I would like you to ponder on this: we need a standard that rules the octave, yes, an octave that (as you well know) needs to be "stretched"; by consequence, we need to define a convenient limit, but not only this; this time we want to make sure that the "limit" is not only convenient, but also practicable and easy to verify. ..."Now, take as a hypothetical, every person who wants to learn to tune pianos is told that the "A440-A220" temperament is the best there is because it was promoted by the world's leading piano manufacturer. It is the ONLY way to tune a piano! Every attempt at tuning a piano of any type, anywhere and everywhere uses only that information and nothing else."... Well, Bill, should not we think positive and realistic, instead of hyperbolic or catastrophic? ..."Whatever those results would be on any piano anywhere at anytime would be considered to be the "Standard" but most of those results would fall far short of the author of that standard had in mind."... I think we should simply solve a few flaws, no need to fight against all possible variations. Regards, a.c. .
alfredo
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Hi Kess here ar ethe intervals I recorded. The tuning is very sonorous, and could have be backtracked a little more certainly I noticed some different effects. For instance when playing the interval of 12th plus an octave, the justness of the top not make a reinforcement of the phantom note of the twelve (not played but almost heard as if it was) The same happen with 17th plus an octave that make a somehow lively interval The beat rates in 17 ths is not "straight" but fluctuates a bit at attack time, that must be a result of the way unisons are tuned (some are a little wild but OK for me) I dont really know where is the consistency located in such a tuning, most probably in the respect of consonance more than in progressiveness (it looks like some sort of Well tuning, while it may not be too difficult to make it "equal" , I hear 2 notes have to move to do so.) to me f# is off limits, will be corrected as I must come back. Obviously a good panel- bass strings are somewhat old, not very precise. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQdExIRHBfWlRXZWc/edit?usp=sharingAny analysis welcome. Thanks PS the use of a A fork and E and D as first intervals is clearly audible, as those intervals sound often cleaner doing so and it is the case there. Consonance respect (Chas style) is good to hide unevenness in beat rates.
Last edited by Olek; 11/09/13 02:00 PM.
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I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
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Hi Kess here ar ethe intervals I recorded. The tuning is very sonorous, and could have be backtracked a little more certainly I noticed some different effects. For instance when playing the interval of 12th plus an octave, the justness of the top not make a reinforcement of the phantom note of the twelve (not played but almost heard as if it was) The same happen with 17th plus an octave that make a somehow lively interval The beat rates in 17 ths is not "straight" but fluctuates a bit at attack time, that must be a result of the way unisons are tuned (some are a little wild but OK for me) I dont really know where is the consistency located in such a tuning, most probably in the respect of consonance more than in progressiveness (it looks like some sort of Well tuning, while it may not be too difficult to make it "equal" , I hear 2 notes have to move to do so.) to me f# is off limits, will be corrected as I must come back. Obviously a good panel- bass strings are somewhat old, not very precise. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6GjQDkF_AMQdExIRHBfWlRXZWc/edit?usp=sharingAny analysis welcome. Thanks PS the use of a A fork and E and D as first intervals is clearly audible, as those intervals sound often cleaner doing so and it is the case there. Consonance respect (Chas style) is good to hide unevenness in beat rates. I can only extract the M3 and M6 beatrates: M3 F3A 7.3 F#A# 8.8 GB 8.7 G#C 7.9 AC# 9.6 A#D 7.7 BD# 10.4 C4E 10.9 C#F 12.0 DF# 13.5 D#G 10.4 EG# 12.7 F4A 9.8 F#A# 13.8 GB 14.9 G#C 15.4 M6 F3D 8.5 F#D# 8.3 GE 90.0 G#F 10.4 AF# 11.9 A#G 9.9 BG# 10.6 C4A 10.7 C#A# 13.3 DB 13.4 D#C 12.0 EC# 15.6 F4D 12.4 F#D# 12.9 Kees
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Hi All,
In order to find this Topic... I had to go back to page 6(!).
"Should There Be A Standard?"..., I thought it was a good question... I well remember my first years, when I was trying to tune 12th_root_of_two without having a clue on how to tune it and then expand the first octave.
Dear Colleagues (mature aural tuners), do you remember your first years...?
Regards, a.c.
.
alfredo
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