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#2159412 - 09/28/13 11:00 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
Between repeats and different timings of the three PBS stations I could recieve PHC seemed to be available all weekend on one station or another. Like QI here, it's on one station in repeats twice most nights, sometimes a whole night of it.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2160619 - 10/01/13 09:49 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
There is already a Standard. It's A-440 and Equal Temperment. Other pitches and temperments are fun to play around with on your own time. But you are paid, as a technician to do the standard tuning!Enough said
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2160637 - 10/01/13 10:38 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
That might be all you get paid for, but I also get paid to make the piano a conduit for musical expression - which means for my clients, hardly ever placing strict ET on a piano. Oh, and depending on the frequency of tuning and the humidity in the room, I also get paid to float the pitch somewhere between 438 and 442 or so...


Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2160661 - 10/01/13 11:36 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
Ron, Exactly! I will float the pitch whichever way the customer wants and pays me to float it .(remember, the customer is always right, even when they're not)
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2160668 - 10/01/13 11:48 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21673
Loc: Oakland
Floating the pitch does not work for me. More notes are at pitch than off. Admittedly, the climate is not harsh around here.
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2160675 - 10/02/13 12:10 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Gary Fowler]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3927
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Ron, Exactly! I will float the pitch whichever way the customer wants and pays me to float it .(remember, the customer is always right, even when they're not)

Tuners are not always right. Even when they think they are. The best ones often are. Even when they think they aren't. 'Nuff said. wink
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2160693 - 10/02/13 01:20 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Cinnamonbear]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2390
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Cinnamonbear
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Ron, Exactly! I will float the pitch whichever way the customer wants and pays me to float it .(remember, the customer is always right, even when they're not)

Tuners are not always right. Even when they think they are. The best ones often are. Even when they think they aren't. 'Nuff said. wink



Ooooh. That's gonna leave a mark...

_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2161420 - 10/03/13 09:15 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
Opera, THE STADARD is a-440, and Equal Temperment. If a customer(usually this is one of those "smartest man in the room" types), insist I tune his paino to something LESS than the STANDARD, then I will give it my best shot. However the dude is going to pay out the rear for me to spend the extra time required to de-tune his piano
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2161423 - 10/03/13 09:23 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Gary Fowler]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Opera, THE STADARD is a-440, and Equal Temperment. If a customer(usually this is one of those "smartest man in the room" types), insist I tune his paino to something LESS than the STANDARD, then I will give it my best shot. However the dude is going to pay out the rear for me to spend the extra time required to de-tune his piano

Amazing - Congratulations for knowing that that there is a STADARD for paino and it is a-440. You have proven you know nothing about opera or temperament.

BTW - Haven't you been warned before about not listing your professional affiliation?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2161427 - 10/03/13 09:29 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Also, is a-440 some strange way of indicating Ab?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2161445 - 10/03/13 10:04 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21673
Loc: Oakland
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Opera, THE STADARD is a-440, and Equal Temperment. If a customer(usually this is one of those "smartest man in the room" types), insist I tune his paino to something LESS than the STANDARD, then I will give it my best shot. However the dude is going to pay out the rear for me to spend the extra time required to de-tune his piano

Amazing - Congratulations for knowing that that there is a STADARD for paino and it is a-440. You have proven you know nothing about opera or temperament.


Well, there are certainly standards for spelling "STANDARD", "Temperament", and "piano"! smile
_________________________
Semipro Tech

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#2161481 - 10/03/13 11:43 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
Be a real Technician. Learn to tune by ear. Learn to set an Equal Temperment. And anything other than A440 is simply lame
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2161487 - 10/04/13 12:09 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
If you can't set a temperment by ear, you are a wannabe tuner. It's no more complicated than that
_________________________
Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2161652 - 10/04/13 09:09 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
Gary, that might have been the case a generation ago, but really isn't a reflection of reality in this time.

While there are those that learn something once and never see the need to expand, there are others that are eager to improve by finding things to learn and explore - - those are the real techs...

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2161677 - 10/04/13 10:14 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2390
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Oh yeah? Then what does that make me??? Huh??? wink
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2161678 - 10/04/13 10:15 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1775
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Standards are dictated by the needs of the market. Markets vary. Markets change. Businesses that fail to recognize this and lead (or at least adapt) accordingly usually go belly-up.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2161699 - 10/04/13 11:02 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1665
Loc: Chicagoland
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Oh yeah? Then what does that make me??? Huh??? wink


That would make you a tech that believed his career was ended, only to try something new that allowed you to re-enter the biz!!

(or it might make you a bazootie-head, at this point, I'm not really sure... crazy )

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


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#2161708 - 10/04/13 11:29 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
I think there was a slight misunderstanding of who was addressing whom. I read Jim's reply to be addressed to Mr. Fowler. It can become confusing when the comment isn't specifically directed or a quote is included.

Standards seem to be flouted as Mr. Fowler refuses to acknowledge his professional affiliation in his signature line. As a pianist, I could make exactly the same statement. As far as learning from experience is concerned, he seems to not have yet learned the proper spelling of "temperament."
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2161725 - 10/04/13 12:21 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Cinnamonbear Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/09/10
Posts: 3927
Loc: Rockford, IL
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
[...] Ooooh. That's gonna leave a mark... [...]


I doubt it, OpTen.

Here's a story: I have a friend who happens to be a real toughie of the bar fighting variety. He's mellowed a bit with age, but still... Truth be told, he has a very big, and very hard cranium. It is readily apparent, because he shaves his head. Anyway, being theater dads, we were working on building a set for a production. He was the boss. I was the painter. We were having an argument about color and pattern--it got pretty heated, but then, before it came to blows, I realized what I was up against. I said, "Even if I *could* hit you hard enough to ring your bell, I know it wouldn't make any difference." He smiled and said, "Your right."

Well, at least I was right about something.
_________________________
I may not be fast,
but at least I'm slow.

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#2161750 - 10/04/13 01:45 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2407
Loc: Olympia, WA
To Mr. Gary Fowler,

First of all, I can sympathize with your position: ET is the way to go in most cases, and is obviously the generally accepted standard in our industry. But you must realize that it is not so black and white. As Ron pointed out earlier, there is equal temperament and then there is EQUAL TEMPERAMENT.

Have you taken the Piano Technician Guild Tuning exam? If not, how do you know how accurate your temperament really is? Do you think you could score 100%? Very few people do. And even at 100% with the one cent tolerance it won't be an *EXACT* equal temperament.

Are your temperaments 100% accurate within a 1 cent tolerance? How about a .5 or even .2 tolerance? (I think anything beyond .2 cents is beyond normal human perception). Each technician decides how refined to make their ET based on experience, skill, and circumstances.

So we have to accept the fact that if ET is the target, we will always fall short of it to some degree. The good news is it doesn't really matter. What matters is that it *sounds* like equal temperament: gradually progressing 3rds, 6ths, and 10ths, 5ths that beat under one second, fourths that beat around one second, and pure sounding octaves.

As far as A440 being the ONLY pitch to tune for, you are simply not correct. Some professional orchestras ask for 441, 442, or even higher. Bosendorfer's standard is A=443. This quote is from their website: "The pianos are manufactured in the factory at a tuning pitch of A443 Hertz, however it may be altered between A440 Hertz and A445 Hertz according to need."

In regards to tuners who don't tune aurally being "wannabes" - that's harsh. Although I share your sentiment to some degree, there are some ETD tuners who do very well. I believe the ones who are successful do use some aural checks as part of their work. So maybe we can edit your statement to "technicians who only use an ETD and have no aural skills are wannabees! smile

There are some who will say any tuner who hasn't passed the PTG tuning exam is a wannabe. But we don't want to beat that dead horse again... tiki

I also encourage you to avoid sounding too much like a broken record on the forums. It can get tiring, and if anything it detracts from your argument. You sound like you are committed to quality work and have built a successful business. I hope we can continue to learn from your experiences.
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2161753 - 10/04/13 01:51 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
rysowers Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 2407
Loc: Olympia, WA
Here is another interesting discussion on pitch from a violin site:
http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=11273
_________________________
Ryan Sowers,
Pianova Piano Service
Olympia, WA
www.pianova.net

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#2161789 - 10/04/13 04:02 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: RonTuner]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2390
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Oh yeah? Then what does that make me??? Huh??? wink


That would make you a tech that believed his career was ended, only to try something new that allowed you to re-enter the biz!!

(or it might make you a bazootie-head, at this point, I'm not really sure... crazy )

Ron Koval


Guilty as charged!
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2161825 - 10/04/13 05:24 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
The thing I believe is that people that cannot listen to intervals while tuning are talking of a so different thing that the discussion is useless.

Aint a question of ET or no, basically, but how that ET is tuned, how much enjoyeable it is when playing.

I can understand why aural tuners are so abrubt .

To make a perfect tuning with an EDT there ar refinements to be done. Most of the time the tuners do not make them, simply because it would be too costly.

The aural tuners can perceive what is wanted, tune it the best they can , and leave some mistakes orallow the piano to move somehow. The detection of an annoying interval is times fastr by ear, but the leeway is larger.

Then if one tune constantly with ETDs, he may even forget how the intervals are listened to, what is their ADN, how that feels. :


Numerous samples on videos of the result, sometime on recordings too.

Very often, the first octave is not musically enjoyable due to compromizing

ALso, knowing how to build a temperament allow to correct tunings very fast

Here is what was mean as ET in 1954

http://www.deezer.com/track/4109378
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2161830 - 10/04/13 05:33 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: rysowers]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rysowers
Here is another interesting discussion on pitch from a violin site:
http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=11273


That is interesting, with witnessing of many famous orchestras in US tuning to 442.

The best answer is that it gives a sharper tone to strings while not changing the winds volume, so the balance is better in favor of strings. Plausible.


Edited by Olek (10/04/13 05:41 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2161956 - 10/05/13 12:24 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: Gary Fowler]
DoelKees Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/01/10
Posts: 1760
Loc: Vancouver, Canada
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Be a real Technician. Learn to tune by ear. Learn to set an Equal Temperment. And anything other than A440 is simply lame

My troll detector is beeping.

Kees

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#2161999 - 10/05/13 05:34 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: DoelKees]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Be a real Technician. Learn to tune by ear. Learn to set an Equal Temperment. And anything other than A440 is simply lame

My troll detector is beeping.

Kees


No, if something is worth fighting for is real tuners learning to listen.
This is not because a less trained or not so much "pianistic" tuner will not obtain accepteable tunings with the help of ETD, way better than if he tune by ear without enough mastering.

But because this psuh the eventual tuners to a trap where their musical taste is modified in the end.

And loosing that part of the trade would be a real bad thing.

Sensitive tuners are more frequent today (my impression) in the part of the world I leave, because the training is better , things are better explained, but reducing tuning to the respect of even intervals and having that judged by a software, is a real mistake.

Reintroducing differences in intervals size without being able to judge those ones when tuning is also a big one.

It sound evident to me that the light WT sound better than the machine driven ET, more surprise for the ears, mistakes not so apparent, more "tension/release" effects, but the warmness of a good ET tuning done by a sensitive aural tuner contains all that yet, plus an equilibrium sensation that pianists like.

EDT tuners DO NOT check intervals, the machines do not allow that unless you stop notes recognizing features and you move the notes one by one yourself. (plus the "precision" is too much, the tuner must have trained ears and at some point the ETD agrees with them +-)

NO ETD can judge the "energy" or the "activity" of intervals.

They only can show that some partials are not lining. Do we want partials to line ? which ones ? on what string (strings differ in length often in the same unison and that on many pianos) How does it sound when all 3 strings are tuned together ? what is the interval activity at that point ?

After some time they purely stand by what the machine propose. Unless they took the time to refine the computed tuning and record it this is a generic thing, not human, not musical, and slightly uncomfortable for that reason !

Now that experienced / concert tuners have a machine in their tool box is less rare than one think. It may serve to put a tuning skeleton on pianos badly out of tune, help for pitch precision , and for other occasions.

But it is not the same that tuners that cannot gain enough confidence in themselves and stop trying.

Basically I humbly suggest that the pin and wire setting are difficult to learn and not properly explained (or explained in so different ways that the fundamentals are not clear to the tuner very often) Pianos reacting differently in different sections does not help to gain a method.

Lack of good samples to look at, lack of masters to show the apprentice, is a real problem.

Low level exigence from the audience is another.









Edited by Olek (10/05/13 05:40 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2162050 - 10/05/13 09:19 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: DoelKees]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: DoelKees
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
Be a real Technician. Learn to tune by ear. Learn to set an Equal Temperment. And anything other than A440 is simply lame

My troll detector is beeping.

This particular poster is dropping hit-and-runs in the Piano Forum as well. Since he refuses to list any professional affiliation in his sig line, though he claims to be a tuner within his postings, I question his credibility also.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2162053 - 10/05/13 09:25 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1775
Loc: Conway, AR USA

"Pride cometh before the fall"

I was rather proud of tuning exclusively aural. That is, until being humbled by an entire stage crew showing up late and during tuning time and with less than two hours till show time. Seeing my dilemma, the stage manager pulled a small electronic gizmo out of his case, the likes of which I'd never seen. "What's that?" I asked. "An electronic tuner," he replied. "How do you use it?" I asked. "Think I should call someone else?" he asked?

"Yeah."

It's best to learn both aural and ETD. You'll always have the other to fall back on.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2162068 - 10/05/13 10:32 AM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
OperaTenor Online   content
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2390
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Bob, OT, but I just noticed the link at the bottom of your sig. How long has this been around?
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2162199 - 10/05/13 04:12 PM Re: Should There Be A Standard? [Re: OperaTenor]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1775
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: OperaTenor
Bob, OT, but I just noticed the link at the bottom of your sig. How long has this been around?


Thanks, Jim. The piano blog? 2011, I think.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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