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#2157370 - 09/25/13 10:42 AM Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano.
Lystig Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 13
Hello to all of you happy pianists out there. I am looking to buy a new digital piano, and for that, I would like some assistance.

First, a little bit regarding me. I am a 23 years old Danish student that has been playing the piano for a few months now. Note that when I write piano, I actually mean keyboard. You know, one of those 15 years old plastic Casio models that cost somewhere between 100-200 dollars back then. Actually, the particular specimen is one that I am currently borrowing from a friend.

A few weeks ago, I tried to play on my grandmothers 30 years old acoustic piano; it has not been tuned for five years, and I do not know its brand type. I instantly fell in love with its superior feel and sound compared to the synthetic/plastic Casio model that I had been playing up and until then. Since then I have not been enjoying practising on the Casio keyboard at all. Therefore, I have decided to buy my very own digital piano.

Now considering the fact that I have never played a digital piano before, I was not sure whether I would be able to hear and feel the difference between say a 700 dollars piano, a 1.700 dollars piano and a 3.000 dollars piano. Therefore, I went to a store that sells various musical instruments and tried out its collection of digital pianos. I could certainly tell the difference between pianos in the different price classes.

I had of course done a bit of research before I entered the store. I was mainly interested in the Yamaha YDP-162 Arius and the Casio AP-450, both of which would cost me around 1.500 dollars each. I had also been looking at the Yamaha CLP-440, which costs around 2.700 dollars.

Long story short, I played all of the different pianos that the store had to offer. Must have been there for an hour at least. Oh, and there were only Yamaha and Roland models available for play. None of the Roland models nor the Yamaha YDP-162 Arius really appealed to me.

However, I really liked the 2.700 dollars Yamaha CLP-440. Both its feel, sound, functions and appearance felt very appealing to me. When I asked the salesperson about the Casio model that I was interested in (the Casio AP-450, which was actually the one I was most interested in prior to my visit), he told me that I should not buy Casio, and that it was an inferior brand with bad products.

Should I take his word for it, or should I see if I might be able to try the specific Casio model elsewhere before making my final decision?

Also, regarding the CLP-440. I looked it up on the internet, and it seems to be a digital piano that has been in production since the beginning of the year 2011.

Now I would not want to buy a DVD player right before the Blu-ray player was released, and a lot of technology can be outdated over the course of nearly two years. Given that I am not very informed on the subject of digital pianos, perhaps anybody would be able to tell me whether the CLP-440 model’s technology is up-to-date, and, in addition, if Yamaha is about to release a new series of models that are to replace the current 400-series.

Also, are there any nice alternatives to the given model that I could have missed? Does it give a good bang for the buck? Any other things I should know?

Please advice, comment, direct, or help me out with my first purchase of a digital piano based on the above information – it is very much appreciated! Should you have questions, ask away.

Thank you for your time.

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#2157481 - 09/25/13 02:34 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
The CLP440 is a fine piano. 2011 is not all that old in digital piano years (we don't get that many updates). The CLP range are the true Clavinovas, while the YDP range you previously looked at are Arius class. Some of them are decent, but there's a definite difference between the two. Whether the difference in price is justified by the difference in quality is dependent on your pocketbook and fingers. To me, $2700 seems like a lot of money for a first digital. People typically keep digitals longer than other consumer electronics, but not as long as you would keep an acoustic. Therefore it is sometimes good to think of a digital piano as a consumable, rather than an heirloom, quality item.

As for Casio, they definitely make budget pianos and always have. They have been creeping up in quality over time, though. They recently revamped their action and the resulting PX-150, -350, -850 series has been reasonably well-reviewed. Unfortunately I don't recall if the AP420 has the newer action or not. I was not a fan of the older models (for example, the PX-130).

So yeah, they are budget pianos but for comparable prices they actually often provide a better piano than their competitors. It is only when you get to the higher-end pianos that Casio drops out.

BTW some of the best pianos around can be had for under $2700. Check out Roland's FP80 and Kawai's ES7 and MP10. All slab pianos, but good ones.


Edited by gvfarns (09/25/13 02:36 PM)

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#2157525 - 09/25/13 03:53 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
Doritos Flavoured Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 98
Loc: Brazil
try the Casio model. their old image definitely gets in the way, but the AP-450 is fine enough. plus, which salesman would want to sell you a budget piano when they could sell you a far more expensive similar?
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#2157606 - 09/25/13 06:18 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
peterws Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3440
Loc: Northern England.
Sounds like you`re an Acoustic Affiniado. So you need to think in that direction, space and circumstances permitting . . .many a good piano is being sold for next to nothing. . . . .


Edited by peterws (09/25/13 06:19 PM)
_________________________
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#2157641 - 09/25/13 07:45 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8854
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Peter makes a good point. If you enjoyed playing your grandmother's acoustic piano and have the space to accommodate such an instrument in your home, I would strongly consider looking on the second hand market.

It's possible that the dealer's negativity towards Casio was based on ignorance, or simply a desire to sell the instruments in his/her showroom. However, I believe those in the know would acknowledge that Casio have made giant leaps forward in terms of sound and keyboard action quality in recent years.

I would also suggest visiting a dealer that stocks the Casio models you're interested in, in order to get a feel for their instruments. Ah, you may also wish to try the Kawai CN34, which offers similar features as the CLP-440.

Best of luck with your search!

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2158358 - 09/27/13 12:51 AM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
Charles Cohen Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 1166
Loc: Richmond, BC, Canada
There are a fair number of Casio owners here. If the pianos were breaking often, we'd be hearing about it.

Quote:

BTW some of the best pianos around can be had for under $2700. Check out Roland's FP80 and Kawai's ES7 and MP10. All slab pianos, but good ones.


+1.

If you have the budget, Kawai James' list is a good one. And you'll be able to feel (and hear) the difference between them and lower-priced DP's.

. Charles

PS - bias -- I own a PX-350.

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#2158418 - 09/27/13 05:22 AM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
Lystig Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 13
Greetings again, and thank you for your input. I appreciate it very much.

Nothing radical has happened since my last post, as I have not had much time to further my research.

Regarding the suggestions of acquiring a cheap, second-hand acoustic piano: While I would most likely thoroughly enjoy the sound and the feel of such an instrument, it is just not practical due to several factors. Most importantly, I live with other people, and being able to adjust the volume of the sound and plug in a headset simply is too tempting to refuse. That and the practicality that a digital piano can offer when it comes to the weight of the thing and its maintenance requirements. Maybe in 10 years’ time...

I still have not tried to play on the Casio or any of the other models that you recommended. The only dealer that has the particular product available for playing is one and a half hours away from me. I might visit him when I get some free time, though!

Now, qvfarns, you mentioned some different “slab” pianos that you stated were some of the best pianos for the given price range (e.g. Roland’s FP80). Are there any significant differences between the quality of these stage pianos and that of regular digital pianos? I actually quite liked the look of the Roland FP80 model. Especially in white and when paired with its wooden stand. I might try it out.

Also, you mentioned that my price range seemed a bit steep for a first digital piano. Perhaps I am wrong in this, but I expect to be able to use whatever piano I end up acquiring for a great deal of years (i.e. 5-10 years or more). I feel like such a long term investment warrants a higher price. Is this a naïve assumption?

I also had a look at the Kawai CN-34 that James suggested, and I got quite interested. I can buy the CN-34 for about 700 dollars less than the CLP-440. So if it indeed has similar features and quality as the CLP-440, it might be worthwhile to look into! Also, the 2700 dollars that the CLP-440 costs is perhaps breaking my budget a little bit. The CN-34, however, would fit perfectly within my budget.

The problem, though, is that nobody near me has any of the Kawai digital pianos available for playing prior to a potential purchase. So there’s that…

I also had a look at the Kawai CA-15 model, which is actually a few hundred dollars more expensive than its CN-34 brother. What really got my attention is that the CA-15 model has been sold out for several months and is not expected to be back in stock until November 2013 for the particular dealer. The explanation, according to the dealer, is that the CA-15 model has wooden keys, which gives it superior action and playing experience compared to any other digital piano in its price range; it costs about 2200 dollars, whereas the CN-34 is 1900 dollars. They are both on sale.

So how does the Kawai CA-15 compared to its brother the CN-34 and also to other keyboards like the CLP-440?

I once again thank you for your time and assistance.

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#2158421 - 09/27/13 05:52 AM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
maurus Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 793
The CA15 is a very interesting offer I think.

I own a VPC1 which has the same action, Kawai's RM3-II action, which is similar to that of the MP10 but adds a third sensor which improves playability quite a bit. It is one of the best DP actions on the market if you ask me. However since I've not played the CA15 I can't say much about its sound and/or other features. I guess sound will be similar to other pianos in the CA series.

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#2158423 - 09/27/13 05:57 AM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: maurus]
Lystig Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 13
Quick update: I actually found a retailer that sells digital Kawai pianos near me after some research! And he has both the CN-34 and the CA-15 models on display in the store.

I will try them both today. The CA-15 is still out of stock, though. So let us hope that I will not fall in love with it.. smile

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#2158435 - 09/27/13 06:40 AM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
SGM-IR Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/23/13
Posts: 7
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
I travelled a similar route to you: old cheap keyboard, followed by new cheap keyboard and then the realisation about nine months ago that progress in learning would really only occur with 88 keys with a more acoustic piano-like feel to it. Like you I tried out as many instruments as I could find in my price range (modest!), consulting reviewers on the Web, and preparing a spreadsheet that compared the features of the instruments and my impressions of them. As noted by others it is important to use your own headphones when you try out and compare instruments - the sound through the built in speakers will depend on many factors including the acoustics in the shop. I was immediately struck by the feel and sound of the CN34, but as others will tell you, this is a very personal thing. I am a little ashamed to admit that I finally bought this instrument on line where I found a much better deal than locally: Thomann.de where the CN34 is available for 1500 euro as a set with a bench (perfectly adequate) and head phones (very poor). After 7 months I am still deeply in love with with the CN34!

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#2158523 - 09/27/13 10:20 AM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: SGM-IR]
Lystig Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 13
Alright so I just got back from the store. And man did they have a broad selection of pianos. I spent nearly two hours playing! [Edit 1: And I even got to play on a 35.000 US dollars Steinway grand piano just for the heck of it!]

I got to play pretty much all the different models that I were interested in. The Yamaha CLP 440, the Kawai CA-15 and the CN-34, the Casio AP-450, the Roland FP80, and even some of the models from Roland's 500-series. And let me tell you. After having played them all, I was even more confused than before...

And so I played the ones that I felt like I had appreciated the most again.

In the end, I narrowed it down to three models: the Roland FP80, and the two Kawai models, CA-15 and CN-34 respectively.

The Roland stage piano had exceptional sound. Its key action was also very, very exquisite. It was, however, also quite a bit more expensive than the Kawais, especially if the price of the stand and pedals were included. I do not feel that the quality justifies the price for the FP80. But on the other hand, it has a ton of functions that I would never use. And those functions are probably why the price is just a tad too high for me.

So that leaves the Kawai CA-15 and the CN-34.

Out of the two, I definitely preferred the CA-15's sound quality, key action (it has keys made of wood as opposed to the CN-34's ivory keys) and general feel. The technical functions of the CA-15 was quite limited compared to those of the CN-34. But as previously stated, I will mainly play whatever model I decide on as a regular piano. Thus, I do not need all of the fancy features.

The cons of the CA-15 are that it is a tad more expensive, it does not come in white (I am a sucker for white furniture - the CN-34 comes in a beautiful white model), and I will have to wait around two weeks from now before they will be able to ship it to me. I am not in too much of a hurry though.

But does anyone of you have any experience with either or both of the two models in question? What are the main technical differences between them? Is the CN or the CA series the "higher end" series? Or are they equal products?

Also, it said on the retailers website that the CA-15 only has 96 notes of polyphony and an output power of 2x 15 Watts, with speaker sizes of 2x 12 centimeters. All of this is inferior to the specifications of the CN-34.

But on the official Kawai website, the specifications of the CA-15 are higher, i.e. they match those of the CN-34. So it might just be wrong information on the retailers website.

Maybe Kawai_James or someone else could elaborate on the CA-15 vs. the CN-34?

All in all, I am very pleased that I have gotten this close to deciding on a particular piano!


Edited by Lystig (09/27/13 10:22 AM)

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#2158541 - 09/27/13 11:02 AM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3480
Loc: Pennsylvania
On the question of whether there is a difference in quality between slab and console style pianos, as a rule, no. They are of equal quality. Slab style is usually cheaper (in the US) for the same quality of action and sound. Some slab-style pianos are made for giggers and therefore have more complex functions or many stage piano functions (the FP80 you tried could be considered an example). For example, I own a Kawai MP8 that has lots of advanced MIDI functionality and tons of voices, but it doesn't have a sequencer (it can't record and playback my performances).

Originally Posted By: Lystig
But does anyone of you have any experience with either or both of the two models in question? What are the main technical differences between them? Is the CN or the CA series the "higher end" series? Or are they equal products?


The CA line is higher-end, as is the wooden action. I own a Kawai wood action piano myself and they are pretty nice. The MP10 and VPC1 use similar actions. Unfortunately there aren't any really cheap Kawai wooden action pianos.

Quote:
Also, it said on the retailers website that the CA-15 only has 96 notes of polyphony and an output power of 2x 15 Watts, with speaker sizes of 2x 12 centimeters. All of this is inferior to the specifications of the CN-34.

But on the official Kawai website, the specifications of the CA-15 are higher, i.e. they match those of the CN-34. So it might just be wrong information on the retailers website.


You can pretty much ignore polyphony numbers. You aren't going to max out the polyphony on any current piano. Speakers are a different issue. Probably best to use your ears (and make sure volumes are the same) on that one if you can.


Edited by gvfarns (09/27/13 11:51 AM)

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#2158586 - 09/27/13 12:46 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
Eddyaknow Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/29/13
Posts: 52
Something you have to look out for is one problem i had.
Many dpianos from the same brand share the same action as in exactly the same keyboard, but are more expensive because you get more sounds or it comes in a nice cabinet or both.
For instance the casio ap-450 shares the same Air-action like the casio px 850,350,150. There are plenty more so you have to ask around here.

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#2158594 - 09/27/13 01:14 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
maurus Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/21/11
Posts: 793
I would take the CA15 over the CN34 just for its action. But you also seem to like the sound better - case closed.

Well then there is the whiteness thing. Can't decide that for you...

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#2158784 - 09/27/13 07:35 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8854
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Lystig,

Originally Posted By: Lystig
... it said on the retailers website that the CA-15 only has 96 notes of polyphony


This is not correct. The CA15 polyphony specification is 192 notes, however this is indeed still less than the CN34.

Originally Posted By: Lystig
...and an output power of 2x 15 Watts, with speaker sizes of 2x 12 centimeters. All of this is inferior to the specifications of the CN-34.


The correct specifications are as follows:

CA15
Speakers: 13 cm x 2 + 5 cm x 2
Output Power: 20 W x 2

CN34
Speakers: 16 cm x 2
Output Power: 20 W x 2

For an at-a-glance comparison of the specifications, please refer to this brochure.

Originally Posted By: Lystig
But on the official Kawai website, the specifications of the CA-15 are higher, i.e. they match those of the CN-34. So it might just be wrong information on the retailers website.


Yes, the information on the manufacturer's websites should be considered more reliable.

Originally Posted By: Lystig
Maybe Kawai_James or someone else could elaborate on the CA-15 vs. the CN-34?


Both the CA15 and CN34 share the same 'PHI' sound technology. The CA15 keyboard action features real wooden keys, while the CN34 keys are plastic. Both keyboard actions feature let-off, triple-sensor key detection, and Ivory Touch key surfaces. The CA15 is primarily intended for 'pure' piano playing, as there are less additional sounds and features. The CN34 on the other hand is intended as an all-round performer, with a good balance of keyboard action and sound realism, and additional features such as MP3/WAV recording and playback to USB etc.

I hope this helps - good luck with your decision.

Kind regards,
James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2158837 - 09/27/13 11:37 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
DinaP Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/31/12
Posts: 149
Did some research and the Roland FP80's Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement is the same action as the PHAIII action on my Roland HPi-7F. Ths is my third digital -- started with a Kawai, upgraded to another Kawai, and now have the Roland. My friend, the official piano tester, has been a professional musician all her life and has played on a Steinway Grand since she was a teenager. She was very impressed with the PHAIII action -- said it felt like a Grand to her (and her digital is a Yamaha, she never thought to try the Rolands). I do not expect to feel the need to "upgrade" again for a long time.

I also think that the possible adjustments on any digital anyone is considering are very important and
highly recommend you download the manual for any digital on your list -- most manufacturers have the manuals available in the Support section of their websites.

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#2163486 - 10/08/13 02:09 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
Lystig Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 13
Hey again everyone. So I ended up ordering the Kawai CA-65 actually, who would have thought.

It arrived today. I assembled it relatively easily. And the sound and feel of the piano is very nice.

There is, however, one thing that has bugged me quite a bit. Now, I do not know if what I am about to describe is how it is supposed to sound or not. But I fear it could be a software defect. Hopefully, I am just a bit ignorant on the subject and everything is working as it is supposed to.

Anyway, the 18 right-most keys starting from the second to last G-key all have this peculiar reverberating sound when I press them - even when the Reverb effect is turned off!

It is difficult to describe in words. But basically, it basically sounds as if the Reverb effect is constantly turned on for those particular 18 keys. There is a very distinctive difference in the length of the tone between those 18 keys and any other key when the Reverb effect is turned off (and the damper pedal is NOT pressed - it also sounds different when the damper pedal is pressed, though you do not notice it quite as much).

Is this just how a grand piano is supposed to sound, or is there something wrong? And if the first is true, can I turn it off somehow?

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#2163491 - 10/08/13 02:15 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
xorbe Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/12
Posts: 570
Loc: Mt View, CA
Hehheh, that's how a real piano is. They don't damp the top keys. The strings are short, and so is the sustain. And those upper notes cause a little resonance in the other undamped upper strings, giving you a slight reverb sensation.

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#2163560 - 10/08/13 05:28 PM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Lystig]
Kawai James Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/06/07
Posts: 8854
Loc: Hamamatsu, Japan
Congrats on your new piano Lystig!

And yes, that is how an acoustic piano should behave - no need to worry. wink

James
x
_________________________
Employed by Kawai Japan, however the opinions I express are my own.
Nord Electro 3 fan & occasional rare groove player.

"Richard, none of us could forget you have a CLP-990." - EssBrace, 2014

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#2163793 - 10/09/13 06:05 AM Re: Need Advice. Looking to Buy a Digital Piano. [Re: Kawai James]
Lystig Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/25/13
Posts: 13
Hmm.. Yeah, I read up on it afterwards. So all is well, and I am very happy. Just waiting on my Alfred's book to pop in any day now.

Thanks everyone! smile

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