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#2148472 - 09/11/13 09:33 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 401
hey guys, any advice for playing with singers?

I'll be doing some jams with one, just piano and voice. Usually I like to have drums and bass to back up the rhythm section. It can be hard to manage everything on piano.

And anyone with some good or bad stories about singers I want to hear them!

Just a few weeks ago at rehearsal we were playing a tune and after I specifically told the singer 2 verses, then bridge they mess it up and go straight to the bridge after 1...

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#2148583 - 09/12/13 03:30 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty
I haven't tried in other keys, but I'm curious. Why would F be any easier than B?

>>If you're a guitar player, maybe you won't care smile
As you know, real pianists use the transpose button !!



I guess I was blind. I didn't notice the A in there. I thought it had no sharp keys. But I guess there's no escape.

This tune is useful though in woodshedding. Like I said, it makes you just listen because it is too crazy to continuously react chord by chord especially once you go fast.
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#2148723 - 09/12/13 11:17 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 593
Loc: Chicago
Some thoughts for accompanying singers:
1. Keep a real steady pulse, regardless of what they do.
2. Keep the voicings simple. You have to be careful that add ons such as 9ths and 13ths don't class with the melody, so best to keep the voicings very vanilla.
3. Do fills if they have just one note in a bar, or if there is a bar with no melody. Singers fell very exposed if there is dead air.
4. As a general strategy, I used to worry about playing too much and staying out of the way of the singer. Then I listened to Ella's piano players on 12 Nights In Hollywood (one of my favorite vocal CDs) and the piano player is VERY active. I find that the singers I play with (very good non-pros) like an active accompaniment. So I know do more than I used to.
5. Give very clear chord changes when going to the bridge or some other key change. They like to hear that stuff very clearly.
6. When in doubt, tag the ending 3 times.

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#2148729 - 09/12/13 11:32 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Wind,

I sent you a pm with a clip you might find interesting. It is as much for singers as it is for pianist. How to play with each other....

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#2148759 - 09/12/13 12:54 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: jjo
Some thoughts for accompanying singers:
1. Keep a real steady pulse, regardless of what they do.
2. Keep the voicings simple. You have to be careful that add ons such as 9ths and 13ths don't class with the melody, so best to keep the voicings very vanilla.
3. Do fills if they have just one note in a bar, or if there is a bar with no melody. Singers fell very exposed if there is dead air.
4. As a general strategy, I used to worry about playing too much and staying out of the way of the singer. Then I listened to Ella's piano players on 12 Nights In Hollywood (one of my favorite vocal CDs) and the piano player is VERY active. I find that the singers I play with (very good non-pros) like an active accompaniment. So I know do more than I used to.
5. Give very clear chord changes when going to the bridge or some other key change. They like to hear that stuff very clearly.
6. When in doubt, tag the ending 3 times.


Nice! Let me add on #3 and #6. On dead space, singers love that you tinkle the keys. I'm deficient in this since it's not something you associate with jazz but they expect it on the dead space.

On the tags -- now after awhile this becomes automatic. You have to always assume some tag will occur. And if not, a Ritard. So you have to listen for it. You've got to know all the varieties. Last 4 tag, holding the the V like in There Will Never Be Another You, ii-V tag, etc.

So on the ending, while you're still developing skills, I would not force a chord until I know where it's going. This is typically where a clash occurs.

Singers also do the "Come in on the B Section After an A-Section solo". If you're backing a singer (rather than a jazz band singing the head -- two different concepts), then it's about the singer and the solo is very short. THEY WILL EXPECT to come back in on the B section.

Now in my case, I specifically tell my singers not to do that and do the head from the top because we have multiple soloists. But in my case, the singer is just an jazz instrument playing the head.



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#2149351 - 09/13/13 11:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 401
hey what do you mean by "tags"...like a coda before the verse starts up again?

I tend to add alot of extensions on my chords, esp for dominant 7, those #5,9, b5/9. Will have to tone that down alot.

I didn't know singers prefer you fill in all the dead space, I had heard you don't want to overplay, but that could be when they sing the melody.

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#2149404 - 09/13/13 12:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
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Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Tag is the repeat of the ending. For example, they repeat the last 4 bars. So you have to be aware of all the different ways they might end it. At the beginning, it is useful to discuss that in advance. If you have a skilled rhythm section they will know.

One other thing is on the comping. You have to comp in an area that is different than the range of your singer's voice. So for male singers, comp high. Female singers, comp low. So be aware of the registers so there's a contrast.

Comp in the open spaces unless you're thinking rhythmically but you have to listen to the effect you're making with the singer.

If the singer is scatting, it would be nice if you can do a call and response.

I wouldn't worry about the voicings EXCEPT for the beginning of the tune. That's when they get lost. Once they are in, then you're ok. You will learn a lot once you do this a lot.
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#2149430 - 09/13/13 12:42 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 593
Loc: Chicago
I know you hear a lot about great singers not wanting accompanists to step on their toes, but, I rarely have a singer complain that I play too much. Much more common for them to ask for help in the blank spots. This is particularly true if it's just the singer and the piano, with no drums or bass keeping the groove going.

Typically, if I've not rehearsed with a singer, it's good, in advance to say something like: "Last four bars intro, and tag the ending?" The keys are how you get into and out of a song. They usually want an intro, and while I think more singers should just end when the form ends, they usually want some drama at the end. Tagging is common, but if it's a ballad, a retard leading to a held note may be more appropriate. Some singers look for guidance from you.

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#2151300 - 09/16/13 01:10 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
SWEET swinging groove here! Herbie on piano.

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#2151534 - 09/16/13 06:44 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 401
I posted this on another thread, great version of "The Wind"by Stan Getz:


Keith Jarrett, Chet Baker and Fred Hersch have covered it as well. It's the inspiration of my nickname.

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#2152000 - 09/17/13 09:59 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: The Wind]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 593
Loc: Chicago
The whole "Lost Sessions" CD is one of my favorites. Kenny Barron's playing is sensational. Great version of Beatrice, a tune we talked about way, way back in this thread, I believe.

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#2152774 - 09/18/13 06:23 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Mark Polishook Offline
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Registered: 11/29/12
Posts: 533
Loc: Leicester, UK
I posted what follows (beneath the dotted line) on another PW forum but there was a suggestion to re-post here. And thanks @Chris Bell .... who posted this link to the Bach Chorales, all of them: http://imslp.org/wiki/Chorale_Harmonisations,_BWV_1-438_(Bach,_Johann_Sebastian)

Beatrice: a gorgeous must-here version lives on the recently-released Fred Hersch & Julian Lage recording.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

There are many ways to think about chords in jazz. Most of the published ones show voicings as "things." Things like shells, A and B, inversions, etc.

But there's another way to chords through Bach and voice leading and counterpoint. I've posted an introduction on my blog:

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/09/jazz-piano-voice-leading-fred-hersch.html

- with examples from Bach and a link to a Fred Hersch masterclass in Downbeat where he talks about Bach chorales and voice leading.
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#2153007 - 09/18/13 01:41 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: Mark Polishook]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 593
Loc: Chicago
Very excited that Fred Hersch is coming back to Chicago in November, and I'll hear Julian Lage with Gary Burton in a couple of weeks. I'm not sure I'll ever understand how to study a Bach Chorale and get that to improve my jazz playing.

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#2153078 - 09/18/13 03:35 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
I had an interesting discussion with a Barry Harris student and I finally got more clarity on the 6thDiminished scale.

Although the examples I've read seem to focus on the Tonic chord (adding a #5 on the minor and major tonic), apparently it's simpler than that. I was told to think about the DOMINANT and then look for the related Diminished chord.

In every dominant, the related diminished chord is found at 1-#9-#11-13 of that dominant. As would be expected, the diminished chord is the same for all the dominant substitutions a minor 3rd apart. That same diminished chord applies to all other degrees of the scale.

This diminished is used to add harmonic movement both in lines as well as chords.
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#2153543 - 09/19/13 07:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jjo]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2263
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: jjo
Very excited that Fred Hersch is coming back to Chicago in November, and I'll hear Julian Lage with Gary Burton in a couple of weeks. I'm not sure I'll ever understand how to study a Bach Chorale and get that to improve my jazz playing.


Lucky you in Chicago jjo.
Re Bach chorale/voice leading style, it's certainly not easy. My opinion is that even 10 min a day adjusting your mind and ears to this new way of thinking and hearing is worth it.

I've been on Bach chorales for more than 4 months, on and off, have only learnt two of them, and am just beginning to use Bach principles in my improv.

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#2153575 - 09/19/13 08:54 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 593
Loc: Chicago
custard: Do you just play the chorales and hope to internalize them, or do you harmonically analyze them? Do you take a voicing from a chorale and play it in other keys?

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#2153847 - 09/19/13 02:50 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Jjo,

Seeing how there are 371 of them in all keys, I would think that playing in the written key is sufficient. Transposing on sight seems practically impossible, seeing how devil hard they are to play in the original key. And what would be the point of transposing to A, if the second chorale is already in A.
Also, it isn't really so much a voicing thing as it is a movement thing. So all the time you will have 4 voices.

So if you play the first one (in G), then your fingers might start to get use to the idea of movement in G. And also, as Fred H explains, your hands get used to passing certain voices around. Typically tenor going from LH to RH, back and forth.

As far as applying it, you can take a tune or section of tune in G, and try to apply the 4 voice concept. That's what FH does in his example. You might be totally unable to play the chorales since they are so hard, but yet able to apply the concept to your own thing, since all reading requirements are gone.

FH's idea that you can play one chorale a day isn't for your average sight reader ... 4 months for 2 of them sounds more like it smile

Chris posted a link to the chorales in the other thread btw.

++

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#2154264 - 09/20/13 07:39 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2263
Loc: Sydney
Hey jjo
Thanks for your great question.
I agree with Knotty.
Given the difficulty I've had with the chorales as a beginner, I haven't thought of doing them in other keys.
What's important though is analysing the principles so that you can apply them to whatever key you're soloing in.

My teacher said to me "Pick any chorale which interests you" and guided me through analysing it. I chose #70 "Gott sei gelobet..."as it was in C maj/A min.
From the 1st 3 notes, Principle 1 is "Bass walks from Root to 1st inversion".

Applying this to ATTYA, when you see Ab maj, you can practise walking it up from Ab to C. As Knotty said, think of the individual bass voice, don't think of a chord.

I'm about to start on my 3rd chorale and am happy to do whatever one you like. We could study a third of a phrase a day. Knotty can join in (this is a plea for help), of course Chris you are welcome, and Mark - would you mind checking up on me to see how I'm going ?
We could discuss it here.
Alternatively I could start a subthread and JW could link it.

Knotty: which chorale are you studying ?




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#2154334 - 09/20/13 10:26 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
jjo Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/09/08
Posts: 593
Loc: Chicago
I'm in. Why don't you let us know the chorale you're about to play, and let's start a thread on that. I studied classical for many years (played a lot of pretty tough Bach!), so these aren't out of my range at all. I've got the music at home and I'll start playing the same one.

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#2154358 - 09/20/13 11:23 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
I'm with jjo, a separate jazz thread is probably best.

I just started #1. Why not ?

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#2154772 - 09/20/13 10:19 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2263
Loc: Sydney
I'm excited about doing #1 as well. It sounds really pretty and was the one mentioned in Mark's blog.

Here is the thread
Chorales for CATS

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#2157695 - 09/25/13 10:09 PM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)

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#2157773 - 09/26/13 02:02 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
Bobpickle Offline

Gold Supporter until July 10  2014


Registered: 05/24/12
Posts: 1370
Loc: Cameron Park, California
Awesome playing, knotty. I enjoyed the solo and really loved how in sync your comping was with everyone else's playing.

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#2157787 - 09/26/13 03:22 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: knotty
Track from Monday night.
Nice solo, knotty, very nice. A suggestion: lay off (or play less) in the LH during your first chorus, I really liked your lines and sometimes I felt the LH got in the way. But your lines have gotten much better, they are clearer.


Edited by chrisbell (09/26/13 03:24 AM)
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#2157794 - 09/26/13 03:44 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: The Wind]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: The Wind
hey guys, any advice for playing with singers?
Yeah, be very clear on the harmonies of the song, know the melody (and preferably also the lyrics), if the chord is a maj7 and the melody note is the root, don't play a maj7 voicing but a 6/9, dont play the melody as an intro, if you feel an inexorable need to play a lick or whatever to fill in the "empty" spaces do make sure its within the style, genre and melodic content of the song. As to comp in the high or low range I say it depends on how you voice the chords. The job of the accompanist is to make the singer sound and look good. So if they skip a bar or two or start off on a bum note, come to their aid and make it right.

I've accompanied many a singer; pros and semi-pros alike, so its a bit strange to be on the other side. Yes, that's right, I've started taking singing lessons and I already have a first gig lined up (apparently I'll be singing both a standard or two as well as a Schubert leider) in December. Which scares me sxxtless as of now, but I have confidence in my teacher (an excellent jazz and classical singer with many years of experience) and she apparently has faith in me (ha ha, little does she know . . ) So now I really have to learn the melodies and lyrics . . . ah well do be do be do be doo
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#2157819 - 09/26/13 05:27 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: chrisbell]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2263
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

I'll be singing both a standard or two as well as a Schubert leider


Hey ! Your style is so diverse !
It must be difficult to know whether to practise your piano, bass or vocals.

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#2157821 - 09/26/13 05:35 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
custard apple Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/11/09
Posts: 2263
Loc: Sydney
Originally Posted By: knotty


Thanks for sharing your fun solo. In particular I liked:
1. how you continued seamlessly from the horn's solo using his theme.
2. how you developed your solo throughout. You had a story, and you told it as though you meant it.
3. your phrase shapes, especially the one where you started descending chromatically across the changes then ascended into the changes using wider intervals.

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#2157829 - 09/26/13 06:03 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: custard apple]
chrisbell Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/07
Posts: 1310
Loc: Stockholm, Sweden
Originally Posted By: custard apple
Originally Posted By: chrisbell

I'll be singing both a standard or two as well as a Schubert leider

Hey ! Your style is so diverse !
It must be difficult to know whether to practise your piano, bass or vocals.
Thanks. Have no worries. The bass has been on a back-burner since Xmas, for several reasons. So I've been focusing on my pianistics. The voice, well, it was a weak-willed moment of saying yes, why not I can be your test pupil (after 30+ years of singing professionally, my soon-to-become-a-teacher decided to get a vocal coach degree and needed a male subject for her final exams) . . and then it struck me: holy larynx Batman, what have I agreed too?!
But I enjoy the challenge, and its great for the piano playing; singing forces me to slow down and really listen.
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#2157945 - 09/26/13 10:29 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: jazzwee]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2940
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Thanks guys for the detailed feedback.
Chris, that is solid advice from you right there. Overall, I could have used more space on that solo.
Cus, thanks for picking up on those details. Esp. 1). That's something I try to do every time. It's kind of fun and gives you an idea as to where to start. Contrary to what one might think, it is much easier to do with a solid player than a weaker player. Weaker players tend to play a lot of stuff and it's hard to parse. Stronger player will often end with something easy to grab and recognize.
Bob, same as Cus, thanks for picking up on it. Also something easier to do with better players :-)

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#2158346 - 09/27/13 12:11 AM Re: Jazz Study Group 2: Advanced Players [Re: knotty]
jazzwee Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/25/07
Posts: 6990
Loc: So. California
Originally Posted By: knotty


Great sound Knots. Your articulation has improved greatly. It's outstanding. Really good solo.

That Bass player though is distracting me with his time. He's causing the groove to falter.
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