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#2159001 - 09/28/13 10:06 AM PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed
dfwtexas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 19
Loc: Dallas, TX
Since 2008 my son has been playing on the Yamaha U1 EP #A3901056 which we bought in 2008 and he is Intermediate E level now. In the Seattle area there is only one good piano store to buy from, Classic Pianos, and the only one he liked there was the Schimmel K169 5'7" new $43k which we can't afford. Other options there were used Yamaha C5 and C3 at $26K but my son didn't care for the key weight and his teacher doesn't like Yamaha. Teacher has a Boston 7 ft.that my son takes lessons on.

Sherman Clay, a Steinway dealer, is going out of business after 140 years and this is last 2 days to buy before their lease runs out. My son really liked the PE Boston GP163EP serial 176524 they are quoting me $18,581.31plus tax and delivery and $2000 for our Yamaha U1 trade-in. I have reservations about buying a piano that everyone seemed to pass up but my son who is decerning really fell in love with it.
Questions:
1) Is this Boston serial 176524 a 2013,? (Note they are selling new with 10 Steinway warranty included) what do manufacturer warranties cover and are they easy to call in?
2)a Trade-in Yamaha U1 EP # A3901056 for $2000 is fair price?
3) is this a good price for the Boston since the store is going out of business?
4) Is this a good choice for a 13-yr-old boy and Intermediate E to learn how to draw out dynamics and ring his playing to next level
5) His teacher might not have tried this particular piano and I wonder if I should drag him back in or just go with my son's ear, who now has probably tried 40 pianos and played in 3 stores for 2.5 hours

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#2159016 - 09/28/13 10:52 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
terminaldegree Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/03/06
Posts: 2679
Loc: western Wisconsin
Hello dfwtexas,

The answers to almost all of your questions are in the Piano Buyer which is linked to this page on the right. Here's my short take:

1. It doesn't matter - that's the most current version of the model and it's being sold as a new piano with a new piano warranty from the manufacturer. Warranties cover problems in materials and labor, but not tuning/voicing/regulation (normal wear/personal preference items). An owner rarely "calls in" for warranty service - your servicing technician does this if it's ever needed (and that's rare).
2. If that piano is from the mid-1980's, (you don't mention the age, but I'm guessing based on the serial number) yes, that seems fair as a trade in. You might be able to sell it easily yourself for slightly more, as the U1 is a very popular new and used piano and you live in a major metro.
3. Looking at the pricing guide in the Piano Buyer, it's about 27% off the SMP pricing. A good deal, but not a screaming bargain for a "going out of business sale".
4. Yes it's an okay choice for an intermediate student. I have no idea what "Intermediate E" means, though (these terms aren't standardized in the US in any meaningful way). A longer length piano might have a more pleasant tone and better dynamic range, though. On balance, a 5'3" grand was all I needed as a practice tool to get into some good schools for college, though it had limitations.
5. I'm happy to try instruments for students and teachers where I live, but my time is limited. Consider paying your teacher for their time (or bribe them with a nice meal) if you've been bugging them with many requests to "try out a piano" for your son.

It's likely the last piano you're going to buy - be sure you're happy with your decision. Were the prices you were being quoted on the other pianos the "tag" price, or a real "out the door" price? Classic Pianos has a good reputation, but I'm sure there are more than 2 dealers in your area to try instruments (if you're willing to spend a little time), and look at the classifieds here, pianomart, and elsewhere for a younger used grand piano within your budget.
_________________________
Pianist, teacher, internet addict.
Piano Review Editor - Acoustic and Digital Piano Buyer
Casio px-200, Bechstein A190 #192939 @ home
Steinway A #585209, B #416809 @ work
Schimmel 130T #339100, on loan

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#2159019 - 09/28/13 10:55 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi Dallas,

Have you done any negotiating? You are a little boxed in due to the closing of that location.

I'm a little unsure of the price they gave you. Is it ~$18.5K minus $2K coming to a sale price of $16.5K? If so, that is a good price for the piano. I would try to get the delivery of the new piano, and pick-up of the used, included in the price.

I would guess that you have checked out the prices at Dallas Steinway Hall and know that this model usually goes for a considerably higher price.

Steinway is very responsive to warranty requests, so that is not a problem. The warranty covers the major components, but doesn't cover such things like a squeaky pedal or stuck key, and certainly not tuning. Usually the dealer will attend to these minor adjustments as a part of good customer service. In your case, you would have to pay out-of-pocket, but these sorts of things are very minor and not at all unusual in a new piano.

I don't have a SN listing for the very recently built pianos, but I wouldn't worry about it too much. It is not unusual for a given piano to be on the showroom floor for over a year. In fact, it's a plus that the piano has had a little settling-in and play-in time.

As far a others passing on that particular piano, don't worry about it. Other buyers were simply shopping for something else. We non-Texans assume that "bigger is always better" in the Lone Star State!

There is nothing wrong with asking your son's teacher to give it a playing. That additional audition could give you peace of mind.

Congratulations! Having an eager young pianist in the house is a great thing and I commend you for providing the proper tool for his studies.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2159039 - 09/28/13 11:39 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
KurtZ Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 899
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
Marty,

I think our OP is in the Pacific Northwest now despite the profile name. They mentioned Seattle and Classic Piano is in Bellvue WA.

Kurt
_________________________
I just wanted to be just "a" guy. That's enough of a life.

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#2159047 - 09/28/13 12:15 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3466
Loc: US
This sounds like a good deal overall-- your son loves it, you don't have to worry about selling your piano, and the price seems quite reasonable for a new PE Boston. I'd go for it if I were in your shoes before someone else does.

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#2159048 - 09/28/13 12:17 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Oops - I should have caught that.

Same reasoning applies, however.

Thanks for the catch!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2159065 - 09/28/13 12:49 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Joe Muscara Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 31
Loc: Houston
I thought that you don't get discounts on Steinway/Boston/Essex very often, and that SMP = MSRP = what you usually pay for a new "Steinway" piano.

Am I wrong about this?

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#2159069 - 09/28/13 12:59 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi Joe,

There is usually a little more wiggle room with Boston and Essex, but it is usually not as great as other brands.

In this case, the store is going out of business and that becomes a major factor.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2159125 - 09/28/13 03:08 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
musicpassion Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 975
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: dfwtexas
Since 2008 my son has been playing on the Yamaha U1 EP #A3901056 which we bought in 2008 and he is Intermediate E level now. In the Seattle area there is only one good piano store to buy from, Classic Pianos, and the only one he liked there was the Schimmel K169 5'7" new $43k which we can't afford. Other options there were used Yamaha C5 and C3 at $26K but my son didn't care for the key weight and his teacher doesn't like Yamaha. Teacher has a Boston 7 ft.that my son takes lessons on.

Sherman Clay, a Steinway dealer, is going out of business after 140 years and this is last 2 days to buy before their lease runs out. My son really liked the PE Boston GP163EP serial 176524 they are quoting me $18,581.31plus tax and delivery and $2000 for our Yamaha U1 trade-in. I have reservations about buying a piano that everyone seemed to pass up but my son who is decerning really fell in love with it.
Questions:
1) Is this Boston serial 176524 a 2013,? (Note they are selling new with 10 Steinway warranty included) what do manufacturer warranties cover and are they easy to call in?
2)a Trade-in Yamaha U1 EP # A3901056 for $2000 is fair price?
3) is this a good price for the Boston since the store is going out of business?
4) Is this a good choice for a 13-yr-old boy and Intermediate E to learn how to draw out dynamics and ring his playing to next level
5) His teacher might not have tried this particular piano and I wonder if I should drag him back in or just go with my son's ear, who now has probably tried 40 pianos and played in 3 stores for 2.5 hours


An important note: no piano on the planet will "bring his playing to the next level" Only hard work and study with a good teacher can do that. I've heard some really awesome pianists that practiced on junk. However a better piano can be inspiring, and yes it can ease his learning how to play good pianos well (voicing, etc.). It also shows your support for his learning. So I'd say buy him a better piano, but be realistic about what a better piano accomplishes.

I don't like Boston pianos very much, but I've only played a few. If your son likes this one, the price sounds ok.

I would suggest having the teacher play the piano if possible.
_________________________
Pianist and Piano Teacher

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#2159132 - 09/28/13 03:18 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1529
Loc: Danville, California
If I were you I would go to the local Kawai dealer, who apparently is Prosser Piano and Organ, and I would look at a Kawai RX-2

If you/he likes it, you should be able to purchase it for very little additional $ versus the Boston, which is, after all, manufactured by Kawai.

I like the Bostons ok - but personally I feel the Kawai action is far superior.

And they are normally a far better value, although the Boston is on special as the store is closing, which makes it a bit less expensive than it would otherwise be.

Just my 2 cents worth - to a fellow ex-Texan

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#2159152 - 09/28/13 03:38 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
musicpassion,

"to learn how to draw out dynamics and bring his playing to next level" is a totally different concept than what you quoted. It is a very valid concept, in fact.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2159293 - 09/28/13 07:02 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
I skipped over most of the replies so that I could answer you promptly. Yes, it's a good price. One of my students just bought (about 6 weeks ago) a non-PE, same size, for roughly the same price, and it's delightful. A perfect fit for their smaller room.

Remember, you're buying a musical instrument, which is a highly subjective purchase, not an automobile where conformity is the name of the game.

BTW, I rather like Ben's attitude towards helping customers - he's always been fair with my students and me. If you want to quibble over $$, then you'll end up missing out on an instrument which will make your family very happy. If you like what you hear, buy it. If you have any doubts about the sound it produces, skip it.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#2159297 - 09/28/13 07:05 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: Minnesota Marty]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Hi Joe,

There is usually a little more wiggle room with Boston and Essex, but it is usually not as great as other brands.

In this case, the store is going out of business and that becomes a major factor.

Marty, I'm not certain this is entirely the case with S&S dealers. I know that the Seattle store received most of the left over inventory of the Phoenix store, and I suspect that rather than over-discount, they have agreements to ship to the non-sold instruments to the Spokane S&S dealership. Also, S&S isn't going to let Seattle sit long without a dealership, so they may just warehouse unsold instruments until they open a new store.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#2159311 - 09/28/13 07:15 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
Hi John,

I was speaking in general terms to answer a posted question, rather than to the specifics of this available Boston. Steinway is very stingy with discounts on the S&S brand. But, as I said, there is usually a little room on the Bostons and Essexs, but certainly never like the discounts from SMP as indicated by Fine on other brands.

I agree with you, this is a very good price for the piano as I indicated in my first reply.

Are you reading the postings in reverse order?
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2159363 - 09/28/13 09:09 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: Minnesota Marty]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Hi Marty,

No, I came across the thread this afternoon and thought that as time is of the essence, a quick reply after scanning some of the answers was more important than studying every detail. I'd hate to see someone miss out on a really fine instrument because several of us began nitpicking over whether this was the best discount possible.

Don't know how familiar you are with Seattle, but Sherman & Clay is situated on prime real estate in the city center. They are on the NW corner of the Westlake Center, a huge shopping complex in the city center, and which is also the northern terminus of the rail link coming from the airport and the southern terminus of the monorail. A few blocks from the warf. Whenever you see Seattle on the news, the photographers are just a short half block away at the Starbucks. The building owner wanted to raise rent, substantially, I'm told, and frankly Sherman Clay really didn't need all four floors it had under lease. There is a new luxury condo tower built just a block to the north, and my suspicion is that the current owner of the SC building wants to either rebuild or sell to a perspective client.

The point being that this "going out of business" sale, while true for SC may be driven by forces unknown and while quibbling over a price, a great opportunity for the OP may be lost.

Regards,

John
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#2159398 - 09/28/13 10:13 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Furtwangler Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 1529
Loc: Danville, California
John

I was told that Sherman Clay's parent company owns the building.

Small world.

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#2159402 - 09/28/13 10:46 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Bob Snyder Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast
Just a few facts...

Sherman Clay does not own the Seattle building; they sold it quite some time ago....

The serial number in question - - this is a 2013 piano. Also, it would come with a full factory warranty.

For reference, New York retail on that model is $25,300.

No remaining inventory - if there is any - will be going to Spokane.

Yes, we are committed to Seattle - and will be very well represented there soon. Stay tuned.
_________________________
Bob Snyder
Senior District Manager
Steinway & Sons

rsnyder@steinway.com
www.steinway.com

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#2159410 - 09/28/13 10:57 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: Bob Snyder]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Thanks. I only wish I could get one of my families off their collective duffs and get up there and grab that instrument. It would be perfect for their two children who are advancing quite nicely. Well, some folks, when opportunity comes knocking, slam the door in its face.
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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#2159443 - 09/29/13 01:53 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: Minnesota Marty]
musicpassion Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 975
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
musicpassion,

"to learn how to draw out dynamics and bring his playing to next level" is a totally different concept than what you quoted. It is a very valid concept, in fact.

Marty,
I understood the statement to mean the OP was both looking for better dynamic control and also bringing his playing to the next level.
I agree the grand will help dynamic control. That can be part of bringing his playing to the next level. But there's no substitute for hard work.
_________________________
Pianist and Piano Teacher

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#2159540 - 09/29/13 08:44 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
williambonard Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/22/11
Posts: 110
Loc: Essex, UK
The Boston GP-163 in my opinion, whilst only 5'4" in length is a beautiful piano. Yes, like the the others, I agree with a slightly larger piano you'd get slightly better tonal quality and dynamic range but the Boston is a well-rounded piano and I believe will last your son for many years to come.

On the price side of things, including the part ex. for your Yamaha, I think that you've found yourself a rather reasonable deal here.

The Boston pianos do sometimes seem to get a lot of stick and many people consider them solely as 'ok' pianos, but I feel they're more than just that. Whilst being made by Kawai, I prefer Bostons, mainly for their sweeter, more mellow tone than what I feel the Kawais portray - this is just my opinion however.

All the best in the piano search.

If you go with the Boston, you've chosen a very good piano which will last you a long time.
_________________________
Kawai K-15 E upright piano
Yamaha Clavinova CVP-208 digital piano
Aspiring concert pianist

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#2159546 - 09/29/13 08:58 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7438
Loc: Rochester MN
John,

We have no idea of the OP's reaction. For all we know they purchased the piano and it's being delivered tomorrow.

I hope DFW returns to let us know the outcome.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2159855 - 09/29/13 09:52 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
dfwtexas Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 19
Loc: Dallas, TX
Thank you for all the posts. So helpful! We went ahead and purchased the piano since space is an issue and we really couldn't do much bigger than the 5'4". It sounds like from the posts that getting the 2013 PE Boston 163 at this good a price is unusual?

It wasn't easy but we were able to negotiate down another $1000 so $17,581.31 plus tax and delivery, excluding the trade-in. For that price besides the Kawai would we have been able to get something as good in this class?
I kept thinking that if we didn't get this piano we would have been thrust into the used market.

We got next day delivery so it has already arrived! It is wonderful and our son is very happy!

I would have liked to have tried the Kawai RX2 but we ran out time because Sherman Clay Seattle had to have all of their pianos out of building as their lease is up Sept 30. forcing the decision.

I had a question about tuning and voicing the piano to our room. We have wood floors , 8 foot ceiling , 19 ft x 15 ft room (larger if you consider it opens into the entry and kitchen as an L shape. We put a rug under the piano and positioned it according to Piano Buyer Guide (thanks for link to online version, awesome!)

Also is it true that a piano sounds different over time as it breaks in and that you can adjust the sound to he room with tuning etc?

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#2159880 - 09/30/13 12:25 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
musicpassion Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 975
Loc: California, USA
Congrats on your new piano! I hope you and your son enjoy it for many years. Don't forget the pics!

Yes pianos do sound different over time and can be voiced.
_________________________
Pianist and Piano Teacher

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#2159882 - 09/30/13 12:58 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
beethoven986 Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3336
Originally Posted By: dfwtexas
For that price besides the Kawai would we have been able to get something as good in this class?
I kept thinking that if we didn't get this piano we would have been thrust into the used market.


It is a moot point, as you have already purchased the Boston. They are nice pianos. Enjoy it. However, there is absolutely nothing wrong with buying used... over time, your Boston will become "used", and with proper care, it can perform "as new" for decades.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

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#2159885 - 09/30/13 01:09 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3466
Loc: US
dfwtexas,
Congrats! you made a good choice. I prefer the Boston to the Kawai in terms of tone. And you got a great deal. Don't second guess yourself and look backward. Enjoy your beautiful new piano!

Sophia

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#2159928 - 09/30/13 04:35 AM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: dfwtexas]
michaelha Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/05/13
Posts: 836
So what happens to all the unsold pianos after Sept 30? The SF Sherman Clay was taken over by Steinway Galleries. I went there before and after, same sales people, same stock, nothing noticeable changed. Maybe Seattle's different.

It'd be interesting to go there tomorrow, maybe they'll have a "one more week" sale.
_________________________
Casio CDP-100
2012 Kawai RX-5 BLAK

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#2160079 - 09/30/13 01:12 PM Re: PE Boston GP 163 EP fair price/choice for 13-yr old intermed [Re: michaelha]
John v.d.Brook Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 7368
Loc: Olympia, Washington, USA
Michael, Mr Snyder answered your questions earlier in this thread, but here it is for your reference:

Originally Posted By: Rob Snyder
Just a few facts...

Sherman Clay does not own the Seattle building; they sold it quite some time ago....

The serial number in question - - this is a 2013 piano. Also, it would come with a full factory warranty.

For reference, New York retail on that model is $25,300.

No remaining inventory - if there is any - will be going to Spokane.

Yes, we are committed to Seattle - and will be very well represented there soon. Stay tuned.
_________________________
Bob Snyder
Senior District Manager
Steinway & Sons
_________________________
"Those who dare to teach must never cease to learn." -- Richard Henry Dann
Full-time Private Piano Teacher offering Piano Lessons in Olympia, WA. www.mypianoteacher.com
Certified by the American College of Musicians; member NGPT, MTNA, WSMTA, OMTA

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Dipabrsm starting as an adult?
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09/22/14 06:37 AM
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