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#2159225 - 09/28/13 05:56 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
Franz Beebert Offline
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Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
I can name some Beethoven sonatas that I would consider harder than the 4th Ballade in terms of hitting the right notes at the right speed(whatever that means):
Op 53, Op 57, Op 81a, Op 106, Op 111.

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#2159227 - 09/28/13 05:57 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8113
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
I can name some Beethoven sonatas that I would consider harder than the 4th Ballade in terms of hitting the right notes at the right speed(whatever that means):
Op 53, Op 57, Op 81a, Op 106, Op 111.

Okay, that may be true. What I do know is that Opus 52 is musically harder than 53, 57, and 81a, from what I've observed.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2159228 - 09/28/13 05:58 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
Franz Beebert Offline
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Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
Sorry about that. I mentioned these other pieces to show that if we speak about "velocity" or "hitting the right notes" then I consider the difficulty of the 4th Ballade being overrated; it's not harder than all the late sonatas. The really hard thing about that piece is to make it work as a whole and to voice it properly and make it sound right.


Edited by Franz Beebert (09/28/13 05:59 PM)

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#2159229 - 09/28/13 06:00 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5032
Loc: USA
I think everything is equally as hard to play well.

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#2159230 - 09/28/13 06:01 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
Franz Beebert Offline
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Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
That's what they have been doing all the time in this thread. Why argue about anything?

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#2159232 - 09/28/13 06:02 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8113
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Sorry about that. I mentioned these other pieces to show that if we speak about "velocity" or "hitting the right notes" then I consider the difficulty of the 4th Ballade being overrated; it's not harder than all the late sonatas. The really hard thing about that piece is to make it work as a whole and to voice it properly and make it sound right.

...which is a task no one has ever accomplished satisfactorily.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2159233 - 09/28/13 06:03 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
Franz Beebert Offline
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Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
You changed your post wink I agree with you; everything is hard to play well. That's why we mentioned "hitting the right notes at the right speed". In terms of playing everything well, then a Mozart Sonata can be just as hard if not harder than a Liszt Etude for a technically proficient pianist.


Edited by Franz Beebert (09/28/13 06:06 PM)

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#2159236 - 09/28/13 06:06 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Polyphonist]
Franz Beebert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Sorry about that. I mentioned these other pieces to show that if we speak about "velocity" or "hitting the right notes" then I consider the difficulty of the 4th Ballade being overrated; it's not harder than all the late sonatas. The really hard thing about that piece is to make it work as a whole and to voice it properly and make it sound right.

...which is a task no one has ever accomplished satisfactorily.

I think Richter does it satisfactorily wink
I have never heard a pianist play the late SCHUBERT sonatas completely satisfactorily though(Richter comes close), those are HARD pieces wink Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?

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#2159243 - 09/28/13 06:12 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5032
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
You changed your post wink I agree with you; everything is hard to play well. That's why we mentioned "hitting the right notes at the right speed". In terms of playing everything well, then a Mozart Sonata can be just as hard if not harder than a Liszt Etude for a technically proficient pianist.


Yeah.. I realized how crucial pointless arguing is to these forums. smile

And I agree with the Mozart statement.

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#2159263 - 09/28/13 06:31 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
In terms of playing everything well, then a Mozart Sonata can be just as hard if not harder than a Liszt Etude for a technically proficient pianist.


Quite true.

Joel, you seemed relieved a few posts back when someone stated that Op. 52 was "easier" than the Hammerklavier (and a few other LvB sonatas), but that doesn't mean it's easy... technically, or musically. That said, many of the Beethoven sonatas are quite a bit more difficult than the fminor.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2159273 - 09/28/13 06:38 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: stores]
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5032
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
In terms of playing everything well, then a Mozart Sonata can be just as hard if not harder than a Liszt Etude for a technically proficient pianist.


Quite true.

Joel, you seemed relieved a few posts back when someone stated that Op. 52 was "easier" than the Hammerklavier (and a few other LvB sonatas), but that doesn't mean it's easy... technically, or musically. That said, many of the Beethoven sonatas are quite a bit more difficult than the fminor.


I was making a subtle statement of my musical taste. laugh

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#2159274 - 09/28/13 06:39 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6689
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?


Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy

I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2159283 - 09/28/13 06:54 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: carey]
Franz Beebert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?


Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy

I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin

Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked

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#2159284 - 09/28/13 06:55 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
Franz Beebert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
Or with me?

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#2159382 - 09/28/13 09:48 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Or with me?


I think not (some would agree with that a bit further). I understand you completely. There are many works I know, of which, I have heard numerous performances and nary an instance have I found even one to be completely in tune with my inner ear. Such is the personal fingerprint we all leave on any work we play. The best that you can hope to do is put forth your own rendering.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2159436 - 09/29/13 01:24 AM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
carey Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6689
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?
Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin
Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked

If you heard a recording of Chopin himself playing the Opus 48 No. 1 you'd probably be disappointed. smile


Edited by carey (09/29/13 01:26 AM)
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2159437 - 09/29/13 01:28 AM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: carey]
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5032
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?
Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin
Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked

If you heard a recording of Chopin himself playing the Opus 48 No. 1 you'd probably be disappointed. smile


Or very pleased.

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#2159464 - 09/29/13 03:14 AM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: stores]
Franz Beebert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
Originally Posted By: stores
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Or with me?


I think not (some would agree with that a bit further). I understand you completely. There are many works I know, of which, I have heard numerous performances and nary an instance have I found even one to be completely in tune with my inner ear. Such is the personal fingerprint we all leave on any work we play. The best that you can hope to do is put forth your own rendering.

Yes. I somehow feel that this is one of these pieces that are better in Plato's idea world than in this external world wink I myself find it extremely hard to make it sound the way I hear it in my mind.

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#2159497 - 09/29/13 06:43 AM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: carey]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?
Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin
Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked

If you heard a recording of Chopin himself playing the Opus 48 No. 1 you'd probably be disappointed. smile


Of course, we would all be ecstatic to the point of insanity to have the chance to hear Chopin play, but I think we'd all be highly disappointed were we to bring him back to the world in 2013. He would have one heck of a rough time with today's pianos (as would all of my favorite composers).
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2159500 - 09/29/13 06:53 AM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
PrestoConFuocco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 92
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?


Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy

I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin

Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked


Firstly, have you listened to Valentina Igoshina? Shes great.
Secondly, just because there isn't a version you like doesn't mean it's the hardest, it a matter of taste. (Usually when you really love a piece you never find a version that satisfies you, maybe that's the problem.)
_________________________
"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.

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#2159615 - 09/29/13 11:56 AM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
Franz Beebert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
I didn't mean that the Nocturne was the hardest piece -.- That was the point of my post, to show that it's always right to say that the hardest piece must be the one which is less often played well...

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#2159652 - 09/29/13 01:10 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
PrestoConFuocco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 92
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
I didn't mean that the Nocturne was the hardest piece -.- That was the point of my post, to show that it's always right to say that the hardest piece must be the one which is less often played well...


Oh I guess that's what happens when I comment without reading everything :P
_________________________
"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.

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#2159681 - 09/29/13 02:26 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: PrestoConFuocco]
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5032
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: PrestoConFuocco
(Usually when you really love a piece you never find a version that satisfies you, maybe that's the problem.)


Not for me.

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#2159684 - 09/29/13 02:33 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: JoelW]
PrestoConFuocco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 92
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: PrestoConFuocco
(Usually when you really love a piece you never find a version that satisfies you, maybe that's the problem.)


Not for me.


Then you're a lucky fellow.
_________________________
"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.

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#2159685 - 09/29/13 02:34 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
JoelW Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 5032
Loc: USA
In fact, what usually gets me to love a piece in the first place is hearing a performance that DOES satisfy me.

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#2159709 - 09/29/13 03:28 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: JoelW]
PrestoConFuocco Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/27/13
Posts: 92
That's the case for most pieces, but sometimes it's very disappointing that performers don't get as excited as you about a piece while playing. (Kind of hard to explain to somebody that never feels it... I give up.)
_________________________
"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.

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#2159718 - 09/29/13 03:55 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Franz Beebert]
BruceD Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 18618
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?


Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy

I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin

Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked


I don't know whether I should admire the refinement and elegant discernment of those who are never satisfied with performances that they hear - even by great musicians - or whether to be sorry that it appears that you cannot fully appreciate good performances for what they are, but always find them lacking.

I, for one, must have less refinement in my demands and in my tastes than some of you, for I find that many, many performances please me to the degree that can I bask in them and enjoy them for what they are without feeling a lack in them for what they are not.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2159733 - 09/29/13 04:33 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
Franz Beebert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
That's great BruceD smile I just think in a way, that some pieces are of such a high order, that they are better inside your head than when heard... It's sounds weird and it's hard to explain, but often the idea is better than the reality maybe?


Edited by Franz Beebert (09/29/13 04:33 PM)

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#2159747 - 09/29/13 04:59 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19944
Loc: New York City
How can any amateur pianist(or even a high level professional)think they know more about how a piece should sound that any of the greatest pianists?

Do you actually think that if you had the technique to do whatever you wanted your interpretation would be superior, more beautiful, more exciting, etc. than any of those recorded by even the greatest pianists?



Edited by pianoloverus (09/29/13 05:03 PM)

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#2159748 - 09/29/13 05:02 PM Re: Beethoven Sonatas ranked by difficulty [Re: Phlebas]
Franz Beebert Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/14/11
Posts: 360
That's not what I am saying. I don't think you understand my point unfortunately. The whole thing about interpreting music and the difficulty about is, is to try understanding the real idea of the composer and the piece. Just as with everything; moral, ethics, art, human and god...

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