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I can name some Beethoven sonatas that I would consider harder than the 4th Ballade in terms of hitting the right notes at the right speed(whatever that means):
Op 53, Op 57, Op 81a, Op 106, Op 111.

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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
I can name some Beethoven sonatas that I would consider harder than the 4th Ballade in terms of hitting the right notes at the right speed(whatever that means):
Op 53, Op 57, Op 81a, Op 106, Op 111.

Okay, that may be true. What I do know is that Opus 52 is musically harder than 53, 57, and 81a, from what I've observed.


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Sorry about that. I mentioned these other pieces to show that if we speak about "velocity" or "hitting the right notes" then I consider the difficulty of the 4th Ballade being overrated; it's not harder than all the late sonatas. The really hard thing about that piece is to make it work as a whole and to voice it properly and make it sound right.

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I think everything is equally as hard to play well.

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That's what they have been doing all the time in this thread. Why argue about anything?

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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Sorry about that. I mentioned these other pieces to show that if we speak about "velocity" or "hitting the right notes" then I consider the difficulty of the 4th Ballade being overrated; it's not harder than all the late sonatas. The really hard thing about that piece is to make it work as a whole and to voice it properly and make it sound right.

...which is a task no one has ever accomplished satisfactorily.


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You changed your post wink I agree with you; everything is hard to play well. That's why we mentioned "hitting the right notes at the right speed". In terms of playing everything well, then a Mozart Sonata can be just as hard if not harder than a Liszt Etude for a technically proficient pianist.

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Originally Posted by Polyphonist
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Sorry about that. I mentioned these other pieces to show that if we speak about "velocity" or "hitting the right notes" then I consider the difficulty of the 4th Ballade being overrated; it's not harder than all the late sonatas. The really hard thing about that piece is to make it work as a whole and to voice it properly and make it sound right.

...which is a task no one has ever accomplished satisfactorily.

I think Richter does it satisfactorily wink
I have never heard a pianist play the late SCHUBERT sonatas completely satisfactorily though(Richter comes close), those are HARD pieces wink Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?

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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
You changed your post wink I agree with you; everything is hard to play well. That's why we mentioned "hitting the right notes at the right speed". In terms of playing everything well, then a Mozart Sonata can be just as hard if not harder than a Liszt Etude for a technically proficient pianist.


Yeah.. I realized how crucial pointless arguing is to these forums. smile

And I agree with the Mozart statement.

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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
In terms of playing everything well, then a Mozart Sonata can be just as hard if not harder than a Liszt Etude for a technically proficient pianist.


Quite true.

Joel, you seemed relieved a few posts back when someone stated that Op. 52 was "easier" than the Hammerklavier (and a few other LvB sonatas), but that doesn't mean it's easy... technically, or musically. That said, many of the Beethoven sonatas are quite a bit more difficult than the fminor.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
In terms of playing everything well, then a Mozart Sonata can be just as hard if not harder than a Liszt Etude for a technically proficient pianist.


Quite true.

Joel, you seemed relieved a few posts back when someone stated that Op. 52 was "easier" than the Hammerklavier (and a few other LvB sonatas), but that doesn't mean it's easy... technically, or musically. That said, many of the Beethoven sonatas are quite a bit more difficult than the fminor.


I was making a subtle statement of my musical taste. laugh

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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?


Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy

I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin


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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?


Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy

I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin

Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked

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Or with me?

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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Or with me?


I think not (some would agree with that a bit further). I understand you completely. There are many works I know, of which, I have heard numerous performances and nary an instance have I found even one to be completely in tune with my inner ear. Such is the personal fingerprint we all leave on any work we play. The best that you can hope to do is put forth your own rendering.



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?
Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin
Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked

If you heard a recording of Chopin himself playing the Opus 48 No. 1 you'd probably be disappointed. smile

Last edited by carey; 09/29/13 01:26 AM.

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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?
Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin
Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked

If you heard a recording of Chopin himself playing the Opus 48 No. 1 you'd probably be disappointed. smile


Or very pleased.

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Originally Posted by stores
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Or with me?


I think not (some would agree with that a bit further). I understand you completely. There are many works I know, of which, I have heard numerous performances and nary an instance have I found even one to be completely in tune with my inner ear. Such is the personal fingerprint we all leave on any work we play. The best that you can hope to do is put forth your own rendering.

Yes. I somehow feel that this is one of these pieces that are better in Plato's idea world than in this external world wink I myself find it extremely hard to make it sound the way I hear it in my mind.

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Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?
Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin
Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked

If you heard a recording of Chopin himself playing the Opus 48 No. 1 you'd probably be disappointed. smile


Of course, we would all be ecstatic to the point of insanity to have the chance to hear Chopin play, but I think we'd all be highly disappointed were we to bring him back to the world in 2013. He would have one heck of a rough time with today's pianos (as would all of my favorite composers).



"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $

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Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Originally Posted by carey
Originally Posted by Franz Beebert
Actually, who plays anything completely satisfactorily? I can't name a pianist who I think plays Chopin's Op 48 No 1 even close to satisfactorily; is that because it's the hardest piece Chopin ever wrote?


Completely satisfactorily according to WHO ??? crazy

I'm sure if you do a little research you'll find several pianists who can do better than "close to satisfactorily" with the Opus 48 No. 1. And no - it isn't the hardest piece that Chopin ever wrote...but it IS a handful !! grin

Listened to every possible recording on youtube. Not a single one I find good enough... Maybe it's something wrong with the piece... shocked


Firstly, have you listened to Valentina Igoshina? Shes great.
Secondly, just because there isn't a version you like doesn't mean it's the hardest, it a matter of taste. (Usually when you really love a piece you never find a version that satisfies you, maybe that's the problem.)


"If I decide to be an idiot, then I'll be an idiot on my own accord."
- Johann Sebastian Bach.
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