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Topic Options
#2159441 - 09/29/13 01:51 AM Suitable solvent for Protek CLP?
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I received a small amount of Protek CLP as a gift from a technician who sent me some piano materials about three years ago. Unfortunately, as I use it quite rarely, the solvent has evaporated, leaving a residue behind.

To my best knowledge, Protek is not available in South Africa, and Schaff won't ship it, as it's classified a hazardous material. So I'm looking into re-dissolving the residue that's still in the bottle. This should see me through for quite some time.

According to the manufacturer, the original solvent is a fluorinated polymer, which is not common. I do have access to standard solvents, e.g. methanol and ethanol, acetone, isopropyl alcohol, toluene, ether, MEK, etc. - but I'm not sure that any of these would dissolve a fluoro-polymer (which is what Protek is).

Have any of you found a suitable solvent for Protek?
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2159494 - 09/29/13 06:25 AM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Suffolk, England
Does Protek contain PTFE or something similar? In case it does, here fwiw is the Safety Data Sheet for Kontaflon 85 which comes in aerosol cans.

http://www.crcind.com/wwwcrc/msds/pdf/KONTAFLON_85-AB28000-3.PDF

It mentions some solvents.


Edited by Withindale (09/29/13 07:16 AM)
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2159502 - 09/29/13 07:04 AM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Though Schaff does carry the product in both liquid and solid, I believe the product actually originates from:


CONTACT INFORMATION 1-800-347-3854


PHONE: 248-588-9055 FAX: 248-588-9044

EMAIL: service@pianoteksupply.com

WEB: www.pianoteksupply.com


You might see if they have a distribution point that will ship to you.


Edited by bkw58 (09/29/13 07:08 AM)
Edit Reason: addition
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2159518 - 09/29/13 08:04 AM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
@ Ian:
Yes, Protek contains fluorinated polymer similar to PTFE. However, the listed solvents are probably only propellants. I doubt that they'd dissolve the active ingredient. I'd expect that there is also a (non-listed) fluorinated solvent. But I'll give it a try anyway.

@ Bob:
Good idea, thanks, but Pianotek only supplies professional technicians, of which I am not (yet) one...
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2159519 - 09/29/13 08:06 AM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
I received a small amount of Protek CLP as a gift from a technician who sent me some piano materials about three years ago. Unfortunately, as I use it quite rarely, the solvent has evaporated, leaving a residue behind.

To my best knowledge, Protek is not available in South Africa, and Schaff won't ship it, as it's classified a hazardous material. So I'm looking into re-dissolving the residue that's still in the bottle. This should see me through for quite some time.

According to the manufacturer, the original solvent is a fluorinated polymer, which is not common. I do have access to standard solvents, e.g. methanol and ethanol, acetone, isopropyl alcohol, toluene, ether, MEK, etc. - but I'm not sure that any of these would dissolve a fluoro-polymer (which is what Protek is).

Have any of you found a suitable solvent for Protek?


Toluene should do it I believe, or xylene, . Methyl acetate works but not totally (on MP1100 Zonyl which is PTFE).
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2159531 - 09/29/13 08:25 AM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Suffolk, England
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2159545 - 09/29/13 08:53 AM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
@ Ian:
Yes, Protek contains fluorinated polymer similar to PTFE. However, the listed solvents are probably only propellants. I doubt that they'd dissolve the active ingredient. I'd expect that there is also a (non-listed) fluorinated solvent. But I'll give it a try anyway.

@ Bob:
Good idea, thanks, but Pianotek only supplies professional technicians, of which I am not (yet) one...


Sorry, I forgot about that.


Edited by bkw58 (09/29/13 08:56 AM)
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2159644 - 09/29/13 12:57 PM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I just searcherd at Dupont Nemours the maker of Teflon

The PTFE is inert to most aromatic solvents (or industrial solvents)

That may explain the non conclusive results I had ( I collected some of them for experimentation with Nitro products and polishes.)

Specific product :

http://ptfecatalog.actontech.com/category/fluoroetch-safety-solvent/


THe name of the powder for knuckles is Zonyl
http://www2.dupont.com/Teflon_Industrial/en_US/products/product_by_name/zonyl_ptfe/

used in inks, particularly the one in fund movers wallets, that explode if you try to open it ! traces of that powder can be find in fabrics even after numerous cleanings.

When I asked, they send me kindly a 1Kg box of powder as a sample "to make experiments"



Edited by Olek (09/29/13 12:59 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2159650 - 09/29/13 01:09 PM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Withindale


Excellent !

Only MEK in that case , nice to know that.

I used MEK and acetone to dissolve CA glue (in a door lock frown )

thanks for the link
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2159660 - 09/29/13 01:33 PM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 2090
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
I used MEK and acetone to dissolve CA glue (in a door lock frown )

That's interesting.

Some idiot has repaired a split in the key button on one of the Ibach keys and not closed up the balance pin hole properly. He used some half-transparent milky white glue - CA? I'd like to dissolve it and start again.

Sorry about the OT, Mark.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2159663 - 09/29/13 01:40 PM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
It solved after a few days soaking, probably there are better mixes , or may be MEK only...
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2159702 - 09/29/13 03:14 PM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Thanks, all. (No worries about OT - all in a day's play.)

Assuming that the lubricant polymer in Protek is close to PTFE, MEK should do the trick.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2159745 - 09/29/13 04:57 PM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 425
Loc: Boston, MA
Good question, Mark. I've wondered this also because information is so hard to find on the company. They don't seem to have any website or post MSDS for any product. When I've had a dried quantity of CLP, I've simply added more to the bottle to add solvency again.

On the bottle, like you said, it states Protek is composed of fluoronated polymers. Well, a common fluoronated polymer is PTFE or teflon.

Most fluoronated polymers should have similar reaction to common solvents. DuPont lists naptha, heptane and cyclohexane as the primary solvents for a teflon based aerosol lube, but I think the primary role of this lubricant is to leave a dry teflon powder behind.

http://msds.dupont.com/msds/pdfs/EN/PEN_09004a2f8061fd03.pdf

Protek uses lower volatility solvents. That's its defining characteristic as a lubricant. It definitely does not use naptha at high volume.

In this DuPont materials information sheet (pg. 3), four perfluorinated solvents are listed (the only classification of chemicals that will truly dissolve teflon, according to DuPont). The last one listed is Vertrel, on which I found a further information sheet listing composition (pg. 3):

http://www.miller-stephenson.com/assets/1/Store%20Item/Vertrel%20SFR.pdf

The primary solvent component of Vertrel is 1,2-trans-dichloroethylene (70%). Searching on this may work as a solvent for Protek, or simply perfluorinated solvents in general.

http://www.2spi.com/catalog/vac/perfluorosolv.shtml

Only problem: they're expensive. If you do experiment and find some more cost effective solution, please post and let us know.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

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#2159862 - 09/29/13 10:06 PM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Dale Fox Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 1082
Loc: Nor California Sacramento area
I always thought it was something akin to Naphtha ( aka lighter fluid, white gas). Whatever it is, it doesn't attack finishes or keytops. I believe MEK will dissolve both. Perhaps I am wrong.

Naphtha will evaporate leaving no residue and won't attack finish OR plastics.
_________________________
Dale Fox
Registered Piano Technician
Remanufacturing/Rebuilding

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#2159910 - 09/30/13 03:04 AM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Grandpianoman Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/12/05
Posts: 2416
Loc: Portland, Oregon
Mark, I wonder if this product would be of use


http://www.tsi301.com/tsi321main.htm

It's designed for plastic etc. I have used it for many years for any application that needs lubrication, as well as TSI 301 for metal...both great producta, much better than the ubiquitous WD 40 and the like.

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#2159929 - 09/30/13 04:37 AM Re: Suitable solvent for Protek CLP? [Re: Mark R.]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
@ Tunewerk:
Yes, I remember when first reading up on Protek, that the only truly suitable solvents are indeed (per)fluorinated ones. But it seems that some chlorocarbons can come close, like the 1,2-t-DCE you listed. Thanks for that. If I find a workable solution (pun intended), I'll post it here. [Edit: I agree, the first link you posted is probably a naphtha-propelled teflon powder lubricant, not a solution.]

@ Dale:
I don't think that any of the normal hydrocarbons (naphtha, benzine, white spirits, mineral spirits, etc.) would really dissolve the Protek polymers. And yes, MEK would be highly detrimental to keytops and finishes. If it does indeed re-dissolve Protek, one would have to be very careful. It might even dissolve the plastic bottle and my toolbox, for all I know...

@ GPM,
The TSI products are organic esters. Probably more stable (resistant to oxidation and gumming) than normal mineral oils such as WD 40, but have you actually used them on (or in) pianos?

If all else fails, I need to find a local supplier of perfluoro lubricant.


Edited by Mark R. (09/30/13 04:43 AM)
Edit Reason: given in post.
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.
LinkedIn profile
1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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