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#2159632 - 09/29/13 12:37 PM Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin?
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 662
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA


Hi all - The Chickering grand I'm going to be restringing has a hitchpin for each treble string. This is the style of loop that it originally had:

[img:center]http://[/img]

While on the one had I like the idea of duplicating the style that it came with, I'm considering using this double loop style:

[img:center]http://[/img]

I've seen this type of loop done on pianos before, and am just wondering if there's any advantage to using it. Any thoughts? Thanks, Chuck Behm



Edited by Chuck Behm (09/29/13 12:53 PM)
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#2159639 - 09/29/13 12:49 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
Hi Chuck, I have no real idea on that, I reproduce what I find.

I have read some ideas about more liberty of the wire with the German loop, for wound strings. ???

What I do is bend the small protuberant part in a "S" shape (by turning it around my hook before cutting) It allow to cut the becket precisely but mostly it make a small strong spring that leave the coils well tight (small punchings on the plate are necessary)

Noticed that on Boesendorfer's



Edited by Olek (09/29/13 12:52 PM)
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#2159646 - 09/29/13 01:04 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 662
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
"What I do is bend the small protuberant part in a "S" shape (by turning it around my hook before cutting) It allow to cut the becket precisely but mostly it make a small strong spring that leave the coils well tight (small punchings on the plate are necessary)" - Isaac Olek

Thanks for the reply, Isaac - When I put the winding on the string, I'll be stopping at a point where the "protuberant part" as you call it does not lie quite flat against the plate when the loop is put on the hitchpin until tension is applied to the string, forcing the coil to tighten up slightly. (I'll be using the small red punchings available for this purpose to keep from scratching the plate.)

I'm not sure I understand the "S" shape you're bending the string in, and its advantage. Chuck
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#2159664 - 09/29/13 01:45 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
I will look for a picture. I first thought it was just visual, but when the tension is applied the becket is stable,does not move as when it is laid usually.

I like the idea of the strong spring added there.

WHen I make the coils, the remaining wire is bend tight around the hook (passing above the coils, and cut in the rounded part, that make the "s" shape (not really a S but a little) it apply then at then right side near the eyelet on the cloth.

Nevertheless I tap the coils with a brass rod to be sure they are tight, but the move when making the S have tightened them yet


here it is , dismounted (not so clear as when it is mounted) :
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/view?q=b...696053221035122

your first eyelet is inverted seem to me. ( in the end no that is how they are when done with pliers)


Edited by Olek (09/29/13 03:24 PM)
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#2159680 - 09/29/13 02:24 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1890
Loc: Philadelphia area
Olek, What your describing is very interesting but I do not understand and the link isn't opening.

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#2159703 - 09/29/13 03:21 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France

sorry

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#2159713 - 09/29/13 03:43 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
I think Isaac is referring to bending the tang up toward the loop, to lessen the effect of it unwinding as tension is applied.

These English loops used to be the bane of my existence; the old Shout House K&C's had them, and they were double-looped, as in your second photo, Chuck.

I may be wrong, but I think the purpose of the double loop is to lessen the stress on the windings and tang.

BDB helped me when I was doing that by showing me his simple, home-made, English loop winder.

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#2159727 - 09/29/13 04:07 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
the coils are more tight, as it can be seen they twist more than usual English loop when they are dismounted.
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#2159730 - 09/29/13 04:20 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered. I'd post a photo but there doesn't seem to be an easy way.

The advantage to a double loop is that it doesn't cinch tightly around the hitch pin (fairly certain anyway).


Edited by Jon Page (09/29/13 04:23 PM)
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#2159736 - 09/29/13 04:36 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Jon Page]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Jon Page
Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered. I'd post a photo but there doesn't seem to be an easy way.

The advantage to a double loop is that it doesn't cinch tightly around the hitch pin (fairly certain anyway).


Unless I do not understand In my experience they do tighten around the pin, and are harder pull as the single loop
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#2159779 - 09/29/13 06:40 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Jon Page]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1916
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Jon Page
Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered. I'd post a photo but there doesn't seem to be an easy way.

You could try the Photo Uploader
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#2159786 - 09/29/13 07:14 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Jon Page]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 662
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered." - Jon Page


Hi Jon - I haven't seen Ron's procedure, but I'm picturing a loop like this:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Is that what you're talking about? Chuck
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#2159787 - 09/29/13 07:19 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2379
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
In my experience, I found that the string always biased toward the 'through' side of the loop (as opposed to the 'tang' side, for lack of a better way to express it), and never truly centered, regardless of how I bent it.

YMMV...

I found I got the most stability when I set the loops as depicted in Chuck's second photo in his OP, but with the tang turned up as in Isaac's photo.

Once again, YMMV...



Edited by OperaTenor (09/29/13 07:20 PM)
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#2159791 - 09/29/13 07:23 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 225
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
It is in the pianotech archives with his description.
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Jon Page
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#2159799 - 09/29/13 07:31 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1916
Loc: Suffolk, England

Loops in a German piano. The originals appear to have been longer.

Chuck, you make the best looking loops but one important question is which type produces the longest sustain.
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Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2159801 - 09/29/13 07:44 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm

Quote:
"Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered." - Jon Page


Hi Jon - I haven't seen Ron's procedure, but I'm picturing a loop like this:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Is that what you're talking about? Chuck


While I know this is a quick demonstration photo, but it is important that the tail of the windings should bend back up towards the loop(s) for stability. In this photo, it bends away from the loops.
_________________________
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159802 - 09/29/13 07:50 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: OperaTenor]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 662
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"In my experience, I found that the string always biased toward the 'through' side of the loop (as opposed to the 'tang' side, for lack of a better way to express it), and never truly centered, regardless of how I bent it." - Jim Boydston


Jim - I believe you're correct. When the string is pulled up to tension, the 'through' side you're talking about is going to pretty much straighten out, as it's the side coming directly off the hitchpin. Chuck
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#2159804 - 09/29/13 07:52 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm


Hi all - The Chickering grand I'm going to be restringing has a hitchpin for each treble string. This is the style of loop that it originally had:

[img:center]http://[/img]

While on the one had I like the idea of duplicating the style that it came with, I'm considering using this double loop style:

[img:center]http://[/img]

I've seen this type of loop done on pianos before, and am just wondering if there's any advantage to using it. Any thoughts? Thanks, Chuck Behm



Not to be pedantic but this on also should have the tail bent upwards (as it appears on the photo) to finish up close to the loop(s)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159805 - 09/29/13 07:52 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3498
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Looking at those German loops Ian posted, it confuses me why an asymmetrical loop would be at all desirable. I would have though the centered loop Chuck posted would be superior. It anchors to the hitch pin in a direct line. I've tied lots of knots in ropes on sailing boats and tying down loads on trailers and one thing you learn is that asymmetrical knots will eventually self-center, which results in lost tension. They tend towards straight lines of force and symmetry. If they don't, they will slip or try to rotate what they are hitched to. Now, I understand that piano wire acts more like a solid than a rope due to its enormous stiffness, but I would have thought the "stretching in" process would take longer for the asymmetrical loops than for the one Chuck posted. It looks to me like the only advantage of the German loop would be that it's easier and faster to tie. Maybe nothing I mention matters in the real piano world. The German loops are quite attractive looking.

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#2159811 - 09/29/13 08:02 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Withindale

Loops in a German piano. The originals appear to have been longer.

Chuck, you make the best looking loops but one important question is which type produces the longest sustain.


Oh dear, Another one. It just looks out of context to see the tail on the bottom one pointing the wrong way. The second one up is better and it finishes up actually on the punching and not on the paint of the plate like the others. I am used to seeing slightly longer tails on every single strung piano I have ever seen. To have the tails sticking out at rightangles looks good but the tails still touch the plate. It defys the purpose of the punching. Again, I have never seen this on factory stringing. It is strange to look at it pointing that way.

If we're going to copy factory, let's do precisely as they do. It really really is for stability reasons to have the tail pointing toward the loop, not away. There is a very good reason for it.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159815 - 09/29/13 08:15 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 662
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA


Hi rxd - More like this then?

[img:center]http://[/img]


Thanks for your help with this. Chuck
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#2159821 - 09/29/13 08:34 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 662
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"It just looks out of context to see the tail on the bottom one pointing the wrong way. The second one up is better and it finishes up actually on the punching and not on the paint of the plate like the others. I am used to seeing slightly longer tails. On every single strung piano I have ever seen. To have the tails sticking out at rightangles looks good but the tails still touch the plate. It defys the purpose of the punching. Again, I have never seen this on factory stringing. It is strange to look at it pointing that way." - rxd


Dear rxd - Unless the piano in the photo which Ian posted has been restrung twice in its lifetime, the tails put on by the factory both touched the plate, and left the string at right angles, at least if the impression in the finish on the plate is any indication. Chuck
_________________________
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515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2159847 - 09/29/13 09:29 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1703
Loc: London, England
Yes, Chuck, well spotted. The original tails look to have been twice as long, the bottom one even longer. I have seen them square to the string but not often. None of this is surprising, rebuilders are always decrying original factory work, this is yet another instance.

While consistently square can look neater, it is an additional safety factor to have them longer and pointing toward the loop just like your corrected photo shows, thank you.

As for the double or single loop, I look after a piano that has single loops that, when it was breaking strings, the broken treble string always flew out the back of the piano. This is a health and safety issue for other musicians on the stage. Could it be that double loops make this hazard less likely?? Was the introduction of return stringing also to lessen this hazard?
Just a thought.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159895 - 09/30/13 01:59 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm

Quote:
"Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered." - Jon Page


Hi Jon - I haven't seen Ron's procedure, but I'm picturing a loop like this:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Is that what you're talking about? Chuck


While I know this is a quick demonstration photo, but it is important that the tail of the windings should bend back up towards the loop(s) for stability. In this photo, it bends away from the loops.


Also more bends on the wire more effort, I see no interest in centering the wire.

The tail up of course, that way does not touch the neighbors, also.
The S shape guarantee that all tails will be up and similar. The dent in the plate paint is under the cloth. Hidden.


Edited by Olek (09/30/13 02:12 AM)
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#2159898 - 09/30/13 02:09 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7157
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Withindale

Loops in a German piano. The originals appear to have been longer.

Chuck, you make the best looking loops but one important question is which type produces the longest sustain.


That was in an east German piano I presume.

Rebuilders always complain from factory work while many did not work in any.

Factories workers do mistakes or have low quality control, but bashing factory work make the rebuilder look smart in his own eye an the ones of the colleagues.

To me without as much time constrain factory trained techs would do a far better job, generally speaking. And rebuilders mistakes, I stopped counting them. (while I mostly see costly repairs that need to be done again partly, and little rebuilding)




Edited by Olek (09/30/13 02:18 AM)
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#2159938 - 09/30/13 05:22 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Mark R. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1933
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I have a question about starting the coil around the long wire.

As the short end of the string leaves the hitch-pin, does it go underneath the long wire (between the plate and the wire), or over the top of the long wire? The first case, as shown in Chuck's very first picture in this thread, needs a whole number of windings in the loop, so that the tang ends up against the plate, while the latter needs an extra half-loop in the coil (2.5 or 3.5 windings), as shown in Chuck's second photo and others on this thread.

I've seen both in apparently originally strung pianos. Is there a preferred method?
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Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2159950 - 09/30/13 06:56 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 433
Loc: new york city
Hi Chuck,

Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Looking at your double loop, I noticed the tang is reversed; on every single strung piano I've seen the tangs all go under the string on the right hand side, from the player's perspective.
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#2159961 - 09/30/13 07:41 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: James Carney]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 662
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Dear Isaac, Dave, Jim, Jon, Ian, rxd, ando, Mark, James and others - Well, this topic has proven to be more complicated than I ever imagined, but really, really interesting.

However, a new 'twist' in the plot as of this morning may make the previous discussion academic - rummaging through the old stringing felts from the Chickering I came across the understring felts used at the back of the treble section and found this:

[img:center]http://[/img ]

For some reason, I had been thinking this piano had the individual red punchings under the back of the strings. The single loop that I posted in the initial message was hanging on a nail on the parts trolley where the parts to the Chickering were, and I thought that was how the strings were done up.

Thinking back, however, I realized that during the refinishing phase of the projects, that the parts got moved from one parts trolley to another when pianos were shuffled about the shop a bit. So the example loop that was hanging on the nail came from another piano. Which one, I have no idea at this point. Ditto the individual punching. Another piano - chalk it up to brain fog.

Since the evidence in the felt is for hitch pin loops with a long, twisted winding this is what I'm leaning towards using now:

[img:center]http://[/img]

The tang will be under the string and be pushed down when the string is brought up to tension. I know that the direction of the winding is reversed from what it was, but if I try doing it the other way on my winder, the tang seems to double back on me - not sure why. (I can post a photo if it's not clear.) However, the tang is now going in the direction you're suggesting it should, James, so maybe it's okay? Also, if it's important to bend the tang up towards the loop, as rxd made clear, I can do that of course. Opinions?

Anyway, unless someone has a really good reason why I should switch styles from what it was, this is what we'll be using. We're going to start stringing as soon as we've cut the holes in the new understring felt, so within an hour or two.

At any rate, thanks to all for your help - the discussion can go on if you have more to say, even if the work on this piano has been done. There are always more pianos down the road, and information like this is very valuable. Chuck



Edited by Chuck Behm (09/30/13 07:45 AM)
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515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2159963 - 09/30/13 07:48 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1916
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
That was in an east German piano I presume.

The strings were probably replaced in Scotland 5 to 10 years ago. I will have to ask again.

Here is photo of a similar piano restored in Dresden (or Poland?) in 2011.



Two coils instead of three but longer tangs. The (larger) original shows some evidence of previous tangs from three coil loops scratching against the plate - see rightmost three coils.

As the strings are thinner in the high treble, the tang is closer to the pin after three turns and digs into the felt.

A possible reason for the tang digging into the plate is to to keep the string straight all the way from the bridge to the side of the pin before it curves round the back of the pin. That's a guess.
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Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2159972 - 09/30/13 08:21 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1916
Loc: Suffolk, England
Chuck, in principle I'd say it's better for the string to be entirely straight from the bridge to the pin. This ensures there are no kinks to dissipate longitudinal wave energy which, according to the physics, is more important than some previously realised.

In practice, you might as well adopt the original coiling method which must have given acceptable results.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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