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#2159982 - 09/30/13 08:41 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
Dear Isaac, Dave, Jim, Jon, Ian, rxd, ando, Mark, James and others - Well, this topic has proven to be more complicated than I ever imagined, but really, really interesting.

However, a new 'twist' in the plot as of this morning may make the previous discussion academic - rummaging through the old stringing felts from the Chickering I came across the understring felts used at the back of the treble section and found this:

[img:center]http://[/img ]

For some reason, I had been thinking this piano had the individual red punchings under the back of the strings. The single loop that I posted in the initial message was hanging on a nail on the parts trolley where the parts to the Chickering were, and I thought that was how the strings were done up.

Thinking back, however, I realized that during the refinishing phase of the projects, that the parts got moved from one parts trolley to another when pianos were shuffled about the shop a bit. So the example loop that was hanging on the nail came from another piano. Which one, I have no idea at this point. Ditto the individual punching. Another piano - chalk it up to brain fog.

Since the evidence in the felt is for hitch pin loops with a long, twisted winding this is what I'm leaning towards using now:

[img:center]http://[/img]

The tang will be under the string and be pushed down when the string is brought up to tension. I know that the direction of the winding is reversed from what it was, but if I try doing it the other way on my winder, the tang seems to double back on me - not sure why. (I can post a photo if it's not clear.) However, the tang is now going in the direction you're suggesting it should, James, so maybe it's okay? Also, if it's important to bend the tang up towards the loop, as rxd made clear, I can do that of course. Opinions?

Anyway, unless someone has a really good reason why I should switch styles from what it was, this is what we'll be using. We're going to start stringing as soon as we've cut the holes in the new understring felt, so within an hour or two.

At any rate, thanks to all for your help - the discussion can go on if you have more to say, even if the work on this piano has been done. There are always more pianos down the road, and information like this is very valuable. Chuck



Chuck, those tend to untwist if not finished with a tight double or triple coil. I use a machine to do that sort of eyelets , ass bass winders do.

the double loop with the centered wire the knot may put the wire at risk of breaking in my opinion. It need to have some give and just a light kink that install when the wire is finally tense.

the tang, under the coils, near the plate so it is stable.

The coils need to be very tight or they tighten with tension and that moves the tang .

those 90° tangs are considered lesser quality work.As you see some goes under the next string.

I prefer a hook to make eyelets.

I said "S chape" because that is what is practically done before the extra lenght is cut. At that point the eyelet is stable yet, mostly because the last move have tightened the coils well.




Edited by Olek (09/30/13 12:22 PM)
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#2159984 - 09/30/13 08:49 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France


a little training may be necessary. a better steel clamp than the one sold originally can help too.
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#2159986 - 09/30/13 08:53 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: James Carney]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1958
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Hi James,

There could be a diasdvantage. The coil at the hitch pin needs to be properly seated. A double loop could make that more difficult.

Do you come across any of the new Yamaha CF pianos? It would be interesting to know exactly what they have done.
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2160008 - 09/30/13 09:51 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1772
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Hi James,

There could be a diasdvantage. The coil at the hitch pin needs to be properly seated. A double loop could make that more difficult. ...


Some 20 years ago a tech traveling through these parts paid a visit to the shop touting the double loop method. "Everyone was adopting it," we were told. Ultimately it was this seating issue and consequent effects unknown upon pianos many and varied, that made us decide not to use it. With respect to the subject at hand, we usually duplicated exactly what we replaced. This doesn't mean that factory is always right. (In certain areas - most notably in the action - factory can be [and has been] improved upon.) Only that anytime we change something almost invariably something else has to be changed as well. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that either. But ideas have consequences and time is money. Best to think it through. Unless there is a compelling reason for change, it is best to leave well-enough alone.


Edited by bkw58 (09/30/13 09:54 AM)
Edit Reason: typos
_________________________
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Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2160011 - 09/30/13 10:03 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Hi James,

There could be a diasdvantage. The coil at the hitch pin needs to be properly seated. A double loop could make that more difficult.

Do you come across any of the new Yamaha CF pianos? It would be interesting to know exactly what they have done.


It is not a problem with double loops coils as they need to be made tight and precise. They take more time to produce.

Now they are called "German loops" may be it is just in the idea of making something more robust better tightened around the pin . Robustness and reinforcing is well in the German state of mind .
The termination probably acts a little differently.

When the plate is considered as an "active part" acoustically, I can understand the wish for a firmer hold of the wire on the pin, be it at that location.
May be it was tested and find better tone wise.


Edited by Olek (09/30/13 10:04 AM)
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#2160014 - 09/30/13 10:14 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: bkw58]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Hi James,

There could be a diasdvantage. The coil at the hitch pin needs to be properly seated. A double loop could make that more difficult. ...


Some 20 years ago a tech traveling through these parts paid a visit to the shop touting the double loop method. "Everyone was adopting it," we were told. Ultimately it was this seating issue and consequent effects unknown upon pianos many and varied, that made us decide not to use it. With respect to the subject at hand, we usually duplicated exactly what we replaced. This doesn't mean that factory is always right. (In certain areas - most notably in the action - factory can be [and has been] improved upon.) Only that anytime we change something almost invariably something else has to be changed as well. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that either. But ideas have consequences and time is money. Best to think it through. Unless there is a compelling reason for change, it is best to leave well-enough alone.


Sure the actions evolved, different mass placement, different backchecks, then different key ratios going together with that.

On some pianos that where originally using the straight lever geometry hence a more percussive tone, mounting the new whippens, changing the backchecks, gives a smoother feel, but the tone loose part of its characteristics.

Also those actions where a tad noisy and heavy, often leaded plus strong assist springs. (pushed to have more fundamental and a strong fff) Those are really "percussive" instruments.

For the one that liked the original tone for that reasons he may be aware of the change in impact expected.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2160053 - 09/30/13 12:06 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2389
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
Dear Isaac, Dave, Jim, Jon, Ian, rxd, ando, Mark, James and others - Well, this topic has proven to be more complicated than I ever imagined, but really, really interesting.

However, a new 'twist' in the plot as of this morning may make the previous discussion academic - rummaging through the old stringing felts from the Chickering I came across the understring felts used at the back of the treble section and found this:

[img:center]http://[/img ]

For some reason, I had been thinking this piano had the individual red punchings under the back of the strings. The single loop that I posted in the initial message was hanging on a nail on the parts trolley where the parts to the Chickering were, and I thought that was how the strings were done up.

Thinking back, however, I realized that during the refinishing phase of the projects, that the parts got moved from one parts trolley to another when pianos were shuffled about the shop a bit. So the example loop that was hanging on the nail came from another piano. Which one, I have no idea at this point. Ditto the individual punching. Another piano - chalk it up to brain fog.

Since the evidence in the felt is for hitch pin loops with a long, twisted winding this is what I'm leaning towards using now:

[img:center]http://[/img]

The tang will be under the string and be pushed down when the string is brought up to tension. I know that the direction of the winding is reversed from what it was, but if I try doing it the other way on my winder, the tang seems to double back on me - not sure why. (I can post a photo if it's not clear.) However, the tang is now going in the direction you're suggesting it should, James, so maybe it's okay? Also, if it's important to bend the tang up towards the loop, as rxd made clear, I can do that of course. Opinions?

Anyway, unless someone has a really good reason why I should switch styles from what it was, this is what we'll be using. We're going to start stringing as soon as we've cut the holes in the new understring felt, so within an hour or two.

At any rate, thanks to all for your help - the discussion can go on if you have more to say, even if the work on this piano has been done. There are always more pianos down the road, and information like this is very valuable. Chuck



Hi Chuck,

To me, this is typical of Chickering to do something novel like this. Not necessarily a bad thing, just different.

These windings I would wind on my loop maker, much like the photo Isaac posted, and in my experience, these windings were even more dependent on the tang being bent up toward the hitch pin. If I didn't, I could practically watch them unravel as I put tension on the string. Or, as RXD suggests, tight coils at the end help, just like it's done on a bass string.

I agree, this is fascinating.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2160055 - 09/30/13 12:10 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: James Carney]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2389
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Hi Chuck,

Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Looking at your double loop, I noticed the tang is reversed; on every single strung piano I've seen the tangs all go under the string on the right hand side, from the player's perspective.


I realize it's not in the same class as the pianos to which you refer, but the 10 ten-old K&C's that used to be at the Shout House had double loops. Since we replaced so many strings, we experimented with single-looping, and they would come unwound every time.

And yes, the tang should point to the right.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2160060 - 09/30/13 12:25 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1958
Loc: Suffolk, England
Is this Bösendorfer video showing a single or double loop?
_________________________
Ian Russell
Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2160065 - 09/30/13 12:39 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
double with S shape as far as I can see.

about twice fast than me !


Edited by Olek (09/30/13 12:41 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2160068 - 09/30/13 12:47 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2389
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
It looked like single-loop to me. Kinda cool to see it all done by hand like that.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2160070 - 09/30/13 12:51 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
it is always done by hand for what I know.

2 turns then the coils then the tail. precise diameter for the hook
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2160078 - 09/30/13 01:10 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 701
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"Is this Bösendorfer video showing a single or double loop?" Ian Russel


Hi Ian - Hard to tell, it goes so fast. I'm amazed how precisely he winds the final windings after the loops. I use the old-fashioned dowel with a hole and a screw, and can't do it nearly that fast. Very interesting video.

Here's my set-up, not much to it:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Actually, however, it's more complex than the jig Bösendorfer uses, which I guess is saying something - what, I don't know. (Maybe that I don't have the same amount of dexterity that the factory work has!) Chuck





Edited by Chuck Behm (09/30/13 01:17 PM)
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#2160096 - 09/30/13 01:52 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
you may want to try, it is easier by hand than one think.

for strongest gauges pliers can be used.

see how a crank is made with the extra wire to turn the coils.

most piano work is based on such technical gesture. If one have no chance to see it it may be difficult to invent something as efficient.


Edited by Olek (09/30/13 02:11 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2160103 - 09/30/13 02:18 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1772
Loc: Conway, AR USA
My set-up for loop and wind in the field was primitive and economical: a long #___ nail (don't recall the #), a vise grip and something (anything) steady. As inconvenient as it seems, it worked.

I like Isaac's set-up much better thumb
_________________________
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Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2160107 - 09/30/13 02:33 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7901
Loc: France
Some old T hammers had a hook on the handle that allow to make those sort of long twisted eyelet (as on harpsichord T hammers).
I do not carry my loop machine with me, but round pliers that can be used for many other things. (and that is how I learned to do the single loop first, by hand, it push hard on the thumb for the thick gauges). OK for occasional eyelet, then the fixed hook is more the professional way indeed ; way faster.

Pianos with plain wire using that long twisted eyelets are exceptionally rare in the field. Some East German or Polish pianos from the 80's, never on a reputed brand.



Edited by Olek (09/30/13 02:36 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2160191 - 09/30/13 06:47 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: OperaTenor]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 701
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"These windings I would wind on my loop maker, much like the photo Isaac posted, and in my experience, these windings were even more dependent on the tang being bent up toward the hitch pin. If I didn't, I could practically watch them unravel as I put tension on the string. Or, as RXD suggests, tight coils at the end help, just like it's done on a bass string." - Jim Boydston


Jim (and RXD) - Is this more what you all have in mind?: [img:center]http://[/img]

Dave didn't start on the stringing yet today - too many last minute things to get done first (bolting down plate, polishing and reinstalling agraffes [one of which broke], cutting understring felt, etc.) So, I'm still considering what style to go with. Chuck
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#2160197 - 09/30/13 06:58 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2389
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Chuck, IMO, that is a thing of beauty... wink

I don't think you can go wrong with that.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2160206 - 09/30/13 07:18 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: OperaTenor]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 701
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Jim - This is all kind of fun when you start experimenting with it. As a kid, I used to tie a lot of fishing lures, plus my dad paid me to wrap oboe reads (for a nickle each). I would wrap them, and he would do all the scraping and finishing. (Of course, he only sold them at that time for $2 each, so he wasn't raking in the money either.)

I do like this last version. I don't think Dave will be thrilled, but he'll learn to love it. Maybe. Chuck
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#2160231 - 09/30/13 09:02 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
msks Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 05/24/08
Posts: 227
Loc: lawrence,KS
The Chickering factory had a very unique long loop they used. Sorry I don't have a photo. It is made with the string winder like Schaff sells. Not easy to get uniform results. THe felt you have is only showing part of the twisting .Other styles are probably more stable and easier to do.

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#2160236 - 09/30/13 10:20 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21670
Loc: Oakland
The reason Chickering used those loops (English, as opposed to German) is that some of their plates did not have the proper clearances for the German loops.
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#2160245 - 09/30/13 10:56 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: BDB]
Chuck Behm Online   content
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 701
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Thanks everyone for all the useful information. I feel like I know quite a bit more today about the topic than I did a couple of days ago. I'll post a photo of the completed job on the Chickering by the end of the week.

In the meantime, if anyone cares to discuss this topic further, do so by all means. It's been very enlightening. Thanks again. Chuck


Edited by Chuck Behm (09/30/13 10:56 PM)
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#2160269 - 10/01/13 12:39 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
One loop is the perfect solution. Than less deformation of steel during we are twist that more durable is its service life. The string breaking in the loop very rare . Why do two loops? I do not understand
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#2160285 - 10/01/13 01:53 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
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Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
I just looked at a '70's Blüthner, the tails go out at rightangles. The 70's Bösendorfer is beautiful. the tails come off the winding in a broad curve towards the loop and the whole thing sits neatly within the punching with about a 1.5mm border. Very elegant and very consistent.

All done by hand, it's only in 1970's America that everybody started making jigs for every single job. It slowed down the work enormously with no advantage in neatness. Throw away those jigs, guys, and do things with your hands like a true craftsman. Even in the factory clip it's only basically a pin in a vice.

A perfectly good loop can be made in seconds with a pair of needle nose pliers and enough length on the tail before you trim it so that you can make windings and tangs with little effort. A bit wasteful of wire, like the video but it's only an inch or so. Pity we don't see the finished result clearlyon the video. Look at an original 70's Bose when you get a chance. I have a picture but I'll have to wait til I'm at my desktop to post it and I have this phobia about sitting behind a desk. Anybody know how to transfer iPhone photos to here with just an iPhone?
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

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#2160289 - 10/01/13 02:03 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Throw away those jigs, guys and do things with your hands like a true craftsman.
A perfectly good loop can be made on seconds with a pair of needle nose pliers and enough length on the tail before you trim it so that you can make windings with little effort.

With one loop?
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#2160293 - 10/01/13 02:33 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
Yes, Max, one loop. I don't know the reasoning behind two loops. The idea might even have come from the sales department.
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

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#2160296 - 10/01/13 02:50 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Registered: 06/12/11
Posts: 1539
Loc: KZ
Originally Posted By: rxd
Yes, Max, one loop.

Thank MY teacher, it seems to me today I got right idea about a loop
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#2160299 - 10/01/13 02:58 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
BDB Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21670
Loc: Oakland
I have seen triple loops on a Bösendorfer.
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#2160303 - 10/01/13 03:22 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2043
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
My 1970 Ibach upright has German eyes with double loops, both on the bass strings and the singly hitched plain strings. And the waste end, as it leaves the hitch-pin, goes below the string, then makes exactly three full turns in the coil.
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Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2160306 - 10/01/13 03:55 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Mark R.]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1767
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
My 1970 Ibach upright has German eyes with double loops, .... .


.....and a Hapsburg lip?
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

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