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#2160787 - 10/02/13 10:00 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: bkw58]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 737
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Thanks, Bob and Phil. I know that I, for one, am learning a great deal. Like many topics which you think you know something about, when you start digging and discussing the topic with others, you find that you've only scratched the surface.

I have some very interesting results to post this morning, readings that more or less made my mind up for me, as to which style of loop to use on our Chickering project.

Yesterday, when I installed the two sets of test strings, one with "tanged" loops, and the other with "untanged" loops (with tight end windings instead), I set all 6 strings to pitch with my Verituner.

This morning, I checked all 6 strings again, and recorded the readings I got. I expected that all 6 would be considerably flat as the strings stretched a bit - what I didn't expect was the difference in average readings between the two sets.

Here's the photograph again, this time with numbers for reference:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Here are the readings I got:

String 1: - 11 cents
String 2: -18 cents
String 3: -27 cents

Average reading for the "tanged" set = 18.6 cents flat

String 4: - 36 cents
String 5: -45 cents
String 6: -46 cents

Average reading for the "untanged" set = 42.3

I actually took the readings from right to left, and with each string I plucked, the needle got closer to center. When I got to number 1, I thought "Holy cow!" Three or four times less pitch loss than each of the untanged strings!

The strings with the tight windings in place of the curved tang are a bit easier to make (getting the curved tang consistent is challenging), but I don't see how I can ignore those results. I actually like the look of the untanged set better - it looks more normal to me - but still, I value stability more than looks.

Any other thoughts on this? Am I missing something, or do you think I'm on the right track?

Dave isn't coming in to the shop today, but plans on starting restringing tomorrow morning. I'll take readings again at noon and in the evening and post those results as well.

BTW, thanks all for all your contributions to this thread. I like the fact that there has been a lot of information shared with absolutely no put-downs or belittling comments. Piano technicians are becoming a rare breed. We need to stick together and truly support one another. This forum is an excellent way of doing that. Chuck
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#2160807 - 10/02/13 11:02 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Chuck, I think you're doing it right. I would definitely follow the numbers.

IMO, the tangs ultimately allow for less twist - and therefore, less lowering of tension - than the untanged strings, at least, initially.

Maybe Chickering was on to something... wink



Edited by OperaTenor (10/02/13 11:04 AM)
_________________________
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#2160835 - 10/02/13 12:41 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/16/11
Posts: 86
Loc: Tampa, FL
Chuck, maybe you need to carry this experiment a little longer. It might be that examples 4,5,6 stabilized all at once and 1,2,3 will do the same over a longer period of time. I don't really know. Maybe check them every day for a few days and see what happens.
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#2160841 - 10/02/13 12:55 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Bill McKaig,RPT]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 737
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"Chuck, maybe you need to carry this experiment a little longer. It might be that examples 4,5,6 stabilized all at once and 1,2,3 will do the same over a longer period of time. I don't really know. Maybe check them every day for a few days and see what happens." - Bill McKaig, RPT


Bill - I agree that further testing would yield more definitive results - one or two measurements of the pitch of 3 strings of each style isn't enough to qualify as adequate testing.

However, for this particular piano, it will have to do. We have a hard deadline to meet on completion that I need to focus on.

After this restoration is done, I'll be working on a Baldwin grand that belongs to me (that I'm doing for my daughter). I'll do more substantial testing at that point involving more strings (and more styles), over a longer period of time and will post the results. I won't be hurried on that job at all, in that she already has another very adequate piano in her home that I did for her previously.

Thanks for your suggestion, and hopefully I'll have some more concrete results in the near future. Chuck
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#2160861 - 10/02/13 01:47 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I do not believe it relate so much... May be the wire gauge gives more stretch on one note than the other.

If they where less stable bass winder would not use those eyelets.

Possibly the metal is more softened when they are made. (do you use a gig?)

In any case à new strings loose a < half step in a few hours, is massaged, etc.

I believe you cannot use the tang everywhere, in some places they cannot lay on something.

Now if originally they look that way it is up to you to decide.

Did the coiled eyelets turn on themselves with tension?


Edited by Olek (10/03/13 02:24 AM)
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#2160867 - 10/02/13 01:57 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
BDB Offline
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I think the biggest difference in how stable the loops are initially is how close the diameter of the loop is to the diameter of the hitch pin. Squeeze the side of the loop with pliers, and the amount that the pitch changes should diminish.
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#2160876 - 10/02/13 02:33 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 737
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"If they where less stable bass winder would not use those eyelets." - Isaac Olek


There's a lot of truth to that statement, Isaac. I'm sure that the samples without tangs over a short amount of time will stabilize just as well as the ones with. They are obviously not going to simply unravel. Looking at the felt placement around the hitchpins, it is true that on the low end of the treble, with the curvature of the plate, the tangs would have nothing to rest on. I'll consult with Dave before I have him start to string.

Thanks for your insight and help thinking this through! Chuck
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#2160921 - 10/02/13 05:12 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
The idea of the larger eyelet look appealing, but I looked at bass strings and they do not close, they stay larger than the pin, there. At last for those gauges, but the thin ones act the same as the biggest.



Edited by Olek (10/02/13 05:55 PM)
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#2161358 - 10/03/13 06:56 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm


...BTW, thanks all for all your contributions to this thread. I like the fact that there has been a lot of information shared with absolutely no put-downs or belittling comments. Piano technicians are becoming a rare breed. We need to stick together and truly support one another. This forum is an excellent way of doing that. Chuck



Thanks, Chuck. What you present is worthwhile science. Hope you can continue with it.

Especially appreciate your closing thought: " Piano technicians are becoming a rare breed. We need to stick together and truly support one another. "

Sometimes I feel like one of two dogs fighting over a bone while the fox is cleaning out the hen house. It's not a good thing.
(Note to All: If you have to ask who the fox is, and exactly which hen house he's been raiding, you now know why he's been so successful at it.)
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Retired piano technician
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#2161569 - 10/04/13 04:41 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2069
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Rxd,

Just some quick feedback. Most of the tangs on my Ibach do not rest against neighbouring hitchpins. It only looked that way because of the camera angle. And yes, while most appear stable, one of them has actually unwound half a turn. I'd mention some more observations, but I'm not sure what to make of Bob's comments, so I'll leave this thread.
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#2161579 - 10/04/13 05:32 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Sure, I was not aware of the possibility for the coils to unwind if the tang is not angled, but I do it without thinking, and it remind me I have seen it happening in my early days.
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#2161641 - 10/04/13 08:44 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Mark R.]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Rxd,

Just some quick feedback. Most of the tangs on my Ibach do not rest against neighbouring hitchpins. It only looked that way because of the camera angle. And yes, while most appear stable, one of them has actually unwound half a turn. I'd mention some more observations, but I'm not sure what to make of Bob's comments, so I'll leave this thread.


Good morning, Mark:

My comment was intended as positive reinforcement to Chuck's earlier appeal in the thread for piano techs to help and support one another; it speaks to consequences that result from infighting: Such tends to take our eyes off the real competition.

Sometimes I feel like one of two dogs
fighting over a bone while the fox is cleaning out the hen house.
It's not a good thing.
(Note to All: If you have to ask who the fox is,
and exactly which hen house he's been raiding,
you now know why he's been so successful at it.)


Dog #1. Me
Dog #2. Another tech.
Fight: Contentious words.
Bone: An issue, often minutiae.
The Fox: The faux piano.
Hen house: Our market share.

It was allegorical. Perhaps this is not the best way to make a point. My apology.




Edited by bkw58 (10/04/13 08:44 AM)
Edit Reason: typo
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#2162308 - 10/05/13 10:17 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: bkw58]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 737
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Hi all - Here's what we ended up using - we need to bring the strings up to full tension yet and work a bit on evening out the spacing, but this photo gives an idea of the winding we chose to use:

[img:center]http://[/img]


We used the string winder to put the eyelet and long winding, then used our other tool to put the tight final winding on the end, leaving a stubby tang. (These look a lot like how our bass strings that we order through Schaff come back.)

If anyone would like to see how this procedure works, I would be glad to post photos. Chuck
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#2162312 - 10/05/13 10:24 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21923
Loc: Oakland
Nice job!
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Semipro Tech

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#2162985 - 10/07/13 11:48 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: BDB]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1847
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Ditto smile
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Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com

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#2163004 - 10/07/13 12:43 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, England
Will they seat more on the right hand side of the loop? One side of the loop looks like it is sitting higher than the other side.

Some, the one in the foreground particularly, looks as though the tang is holding the winding up off the cloth. Could that side of the loop be prevented from seating by the (unnecessary) tang?.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2163008 - 10/07/13 12:55 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21923
Loc: Oakland
I seat these by tapping lightly just in front of the hitch pin.
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Semipro Tech

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#2163078 - 10/07/13 04:48 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Beautiful, Chuck!

Wow!
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

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#2163099 - 10/07/13 05:26 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
I suspected those tang would cause trouble.

It was not worth trying to explain this and that !!

The winding machine usually do not create a tang.


Edited by Olek (10/07/13 05:27 PM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2163120 - 10/07/13 06:15 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 737
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"Will they seat more on the right hand side of the loop? One side of the loop looks like it is sitting higher than the other side.

Some, the one in the foreground particularly, looks as though the tang is holding the winding up off the cloth. Could that side of the loop be prevented from seating by the (unnecessary) tang?." - rdx


Hi rdx - I'll be able to answer your questions better once we bring the piano up to pitch. I wanted at least a stub of a tang to prevent any loosening of the coil, short enough to not interfer with the adjoining string, but long enough to apply a bit of tension to the coil. The idea was to stop winding with just a hint of downward angle, which is tricky because when you stop the winding process, the tang will spring back by itself. You have to go a bit beyond a perpendicular position in order for it to spring back to the desired angle. The string that's the closest to the camera, in my opinion, has just a bit too much angle - but we'll see when we pitch it up. Dave made the coils after I showed him how - I had to leave to tune for the day. There is a bit of a learning curve on the process, I'm afraid.

Thanks for writing, and for your observations. Chuck
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#2163839 - 10/09/13 09:07 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, England
Hi. Chuck. It strikes me that, if leaving a tang on were really necessary, it would be a simple thing to wind the final turn do that the tang sticks up off the stringing cloth at a very slight angle which would twist down to settle firmly on the cloth when at tension.

I have a feeling it wouldn't do that if everythimg is wound toghtly amd seated but I'm not 100% certain. Might be worth another experiment.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2163972 - 10/09/13 02:56 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
pianolive Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 327
Loc: Europe
Hello Chuck,
The tangs can be cut down to by the winding. That will look nice like the rest of your work.
Great string makers like Heller do it that way.

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#2164034 - 10/09/13 05:33 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: pianolive]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: pianolive
Hello Chuck,
The tangs can be cut down to by the winding. That will look nice like the rest of your work.
Great string makers like Heller do it that way.


I dont know if you mean cut with pliers, but the winding machine make just the wind, then it goes out of the hole, no tang remain (and all eyelets are done the same, those small machines are very efficient)

Then when tension is applied the coil turn a little on itself ( not always the same amount just "more or less" the same.
(and some do not turn, seem to me)



Edited by Olek (10/09/13 05:35 PM)
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It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2164314 - 10/10/13 07:24 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: pianolive]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 737
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
"The tangs can be cut down to by the winding. That will look nice like the rest of your work.Great string makers like Heller do it that way." - Pianolive


Dear Pianolive, rdx, Isaac and others - At this point the question of whether to trim off the tangs or leave them on is a moot point. I'm afraid Dave would revolt if I asked him to redo his work:

[img:center]http://[/img]

For future jobs that have this type of stringing, I'm wondering if there is any reason to trim off the short tang, other than for the sake of appearance. My string winder leaves me enough wire to put on 2 tight coils, but no more. I've noticed that most strings on other pianos which have a winding followed by tight coils have 3 or 4 tight coils.

My thinking is that the short tang provides a little extra insurance against any loosening of the coils down the road.

Thanks all for your help on this issue, and also on the questions I raised with the 'stepped pinblock.' When you come across something you're uncertain of, it's nice to have a way to bounce your ideas off of others who have more experience than yourself. Chuck
_________________________
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515-212-9220

"The act of destruction is infinitely easier than the act of creation" - Arthur C. Clarke

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#2164320 - 10/10/13 07:35 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
then you may have an issue with the clamp of your string winder.

it probably can be modified so the part of wire inserted in the hole is less long.

it is easier not having to cut anything at the end of the winding.

what I noticed with mine is that the metal used was subject to wear, hopefully a friend had a new piece made in top class metal and offered me one. no more wear. I do not use it so often anyway.

the tang pushing on the coils are robbing you some downbearing (and lack of firmness until they can be put closely in contact).

could you have them laying flat in the end ?

IMO the stringer should have noticed that and ask you further instructions.

Nice looking job BTW


Edited by Olek (10/10/13 07:37 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2164394 - 10/10/13 11:20 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
BDB Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/07/03
Posts: 21923
Loc: Oakland
Your loops are fine. There is nothing to worry about. After all, how often have you seen these loops come undone on bass strings, even when there is nothing under the tangs to hold them in place? It never happens!
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#2164398 - 10/10/13 11:29 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Chuck, IMNSHO, I think what you've done is excellent. My money says that piano will go another ninety years.





Edited by OperaTenor (10/10/13 11:30 AM)
_________________________
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#2164546 - 10/10/13 05:47 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Online   happy
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1818
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
Quote:
"The tangs can be cut down to by the winding. That will look nice like the rest of your work.Great string makers like Heller do it that way." - Pianolive


Dear Pianolive, rdx, Isaac and others - At this point the question of whether to trim off the tangs or leave them on is a moot point. I'm afraid Dave would revolt if I asked him to redo his work:

[img:center]http://[/img]

For future jobs that have this type of stringing, I'm wondering if there is any reason to trim off the short tang, other than for the sake of appearance. My string winder leaves me enough wire to put on 2 tight coils, but no more. I've noticed that most strings on other pianos which have a winding followed by tight coils have 3 or 4 tight coils.

My thinking is that the short tang provides a little extra insurance against any loosening of the coils down the road.

Thanks all for your help on this issue, and also on the questions I raised with the 'stepped pinblock.' When you come across something you're uncertain of, it's nice to have a way to bounce your ideas off of others who have more experience than yourself. Chuck



Is this the photograph of the finished article under tension? I can't see the loops in this photograph yet you are being told they look fine.... How can anybody judge based on this photo? They are simply not visible.

Am I missing something?

Do the bass strings have tangs on them?

Did the loops and tangs seat properly? I really would like to know how this arrangement seats with all the strings looking the same and the tangs worthwhile.


Edited by rxd (10/10/13 05:50 PM)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2164552 - 10/10/13 06:02 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2468
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
I can see the loops. I think they look splendid.

I believe Chuck mentioned previously that the bass strings were made by Schaff's bass string duplication service, and therefore I assume they don't have tangs.



Edited by OperaTenor (10/10/13 06:04 PM)
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
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#2164603 - 10/10/13 08:48 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 737
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
"Is this the photograph of the finished article under tension? I can't see the loops in this photograph yet you are being told they look fine.... How can anybody judge based on this photo? They are simply not visible.

Am I missing something?

Do the bass strings have tangs on them?

Did the loops and tangs seat properly? I really would like to know how this arrangement seats with all the strings looking the same and the tangs worthwhile." - rxd


Hi rxd - I can zoom in on a single set of strings, since they're underneath the bass strings (the higher treble are not singletons). If I go any further back with my camera, it wants to focus on the bass strings.:

[img:center]http://[/img]

The piano has been chipped up, but not tuned as of yet. Visually, they seem to be seating okay, at least to my eye.

Here's the windings on the bass strings from Schaff:

[img:center]http://[/img]

There strings have more of the tight coils (up to 8), and also have a very short tang - or at least the strings are not being snipped perfectly flush with the coil. With the tools I have, the best I can do is 2 tight coils - after that I run out of string. One reason I felt that leaving the short tang was a good idea.

But again, for this piano, the stringing is a done deal. I'm working on putting on new hammers and dampers now, and will be putting things back together soon. The case work is done, so we're on the downslope of the project. Chuck




Edited by Chuck Behm (10/10/13 08:49 PM)
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