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#2159632 - 09/29/13 12:37 PM Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin?
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA


Hi all - The Chickering grand I'm going to be restringing has a hitchpin for each treble string. This is the style of loop that it originally had:

[img:center]http://[/img]

While on the one had I like the idea of duplicating the style that it came with, I'm considering using this double loop style:

[img:center]http://[/img]

I've seen this type of loop done on pianos before, and am just wondering if there's any advantage to using it. Any thoughts? Thanks, Chuck Behm



Edited by Chuck Behm (09/29/13 12:53 PM)
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#2159639 - 09/29/13 12:49 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Hi Chuck, I have no real idea on that, I reproduce what I find.

I have read some ideas about more liberty of the wire with the German loop, for wound strings. ???

What I do is bend the small protuberant part in a "S" shape (by turning it around my hook before cutting) It allow to cut the becket precisely but mostly it make a small strong spring that leave the coils well tight (small punchings on the plate are necessary)

Noticed that on Boesendorfer's



Edited by Olek (09/29/13 12:52 PM)
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#2159646 - 09/29/13 01:04 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Quote:
"What I do is bend the small protuberant part in a "S" shape (by turning it around my hook before cutting) It allow to cut the becket precisely but mostly it make a small strong spring that leave the coils well tight (small punchings on the plate are necessary)" - Isaac Olek

Thanks for the reply, Isaac - When I put the winding on the string, I'll be stopping at a point where the "protuberant part" as you call it does not lie quite flat against the plate when the loop is put on the hitchpin until tension is applied to the string, forcing the coil to tighten up slightly. (I'll be using the small red punchings available for this purpose to keep from scratching the plate.)

I'm not sure I understand the "S" shape you're bending the string in, and its advantage. Chuck
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#2159664 - 09/29/13 01:45 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
I will look for a picture. I first thought it was just visual, but when the tension is applied the becket is stable,does not move as when it is laid usually.

I like the idea of the strong spring added there.

WHen I make the coils, the remaining wire is bend tight around the hook (passing above the coils, and cut in the rounded part, that make the "s" shape (not really a S but a little) it apply then at then right side near the eyelet on the cloth.

Nevertheless I tap the coils with a brass rod to be sure they are tight, but the move when making the S have tightened them yet


here it is , dismounted (not so clear as when it is mounted) :
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/view?q=b...696053221035122

your first eyelet is inverted seem to me. ( in the end no that is how they are when done with pliers)


Edited by Olek (09/29/13 03:24 PM)
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#2159680 - 09/29/13 02:24 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Dave B Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/01/11
Posts: 1968
Loc: Philadelphia area
Olek, What your describing is very interesting but I do not understand and the link isn't opening.

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#2159703 - 09/29/13 03:21 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France

sorry

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#2159713 - 09/29/13 03:43 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
I think Isaac is referring to bending the tang up toward the loop, to lessen the effect of it unwinding as tension is applied.

These English loops used to be the bane of my existence; the old Shout House K&C's had them, and they were double-looped, as in your second photo, Chuck.

I may be wrong, but I think the purpose of the double loop is to lessen the stress on the windings and tang.

BDB helped me when I was doing that by showing me his simple, home-made, English loop winder.

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#2159727 - 09/29/13 04:07 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
the coils are more tight, as it can be seen they twist more than usual English loop when they are dismounted.
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#2159730 - 09/29/13 04:20 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered. I'd post a photo but there doesn't seem to be an easy way.

The advantage to a double loop is that it doesn't cinch tightly around the hitch pin (fairly certain anyway).


Edited by Jon Page (09/29/13 04:23 PM)
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#2159736 - 09/29/13 04:36 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Jon Page]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Jon Page
Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered. I'd post a photo but there doesn't seem to be an easy way.

The advantage to a double loop is that it doesn't cinch tightly around the hitch pin (fairly certain anyway).


Unless I do not understand In my experience they do tighten around the pin, and are harder pull as the single loop
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#2159779 - 09/29/13 06:40 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Jon Page]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Jon Page
Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered. I'd post a photo but there doesn't seem to be an easy way.

You could try the Photo Uploader
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#2159786 - 09/29/13 07:14 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Jon Page]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered." - Jon Page


Hi Jon - I haven't seen Ron's procedure, but I'm picturing a loop like this:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Is that what you're talking about? Chuck
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#2159787 - 09/29/13 07:19 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
In my experience, I found that the string always biased toward the 'through' side of the loop (as opposed to the 'tang' side, for lack of a better way to express it), and never truly centered, regardless of how I bent it.

YMMV...

I found I got the most stability when I set the loops as depicted in Chuck's second photo in his OP, but with the tang turned up as in Isaac's photo.

Once again, YMMV...



Edited by OperaTenor (09/29/13 07:20 PM)
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#2159791 - 09/29/13 07:23 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Jon Page Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/13/09
Posts: 273
Loc: Harwich Port, Cape Cod, Massac...
It is in the pianotech archives with his description.
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#2159799 - 09/29/13 07:31 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England

Loops in a German piano. The originals appear to have been longer.

Chuck, you make the best looking loops but one important question is which type produces the longest sustain.
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Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2159801 - 09/29/13 07:44 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm

Quote:
"Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered." - Jon Page


Hi Jon - I haven't seen Ron's procedure, but I'm picturing a loop like this:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Is that what you're talking about? Chuck


While I know this is a quick demonstration photo, but it is important that the tail of the windings should bend back up towards the loop(s) for stability. In this photo, it bends away from the loops.
_________________________
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"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159802 - 09/29/13 07:50 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: OperaTenor]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"In my experience, I found that the string always biased toward the 'through' side of the loop (as opposed to the 'tang' side, for lack of a better way to express it), and never truly centered, regardless of how I bent it." - Jim Boydston


Jim - I believe you're correct. When the string is pulled up to tension, the 'through' side you're talking about is going to pretty much straighten out, as it's the side coming directly off the hitchpin. Chuck
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#2159804 - 09/29/13 07:52 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm


Hi all - The Chickering grand I'm going to be restringing has a hitchpin for each treble string. This is the style of loop that it originally had:

[img:center]http://[/img]

While on the one had I like the idea of duplicating the style that it came with, I'm considering using this double loop style:

[img:center]http://[/img]

I've seen this type of loop done on pianos before, and am just wondering if there's any advantage to using it. Any thoughts? Thanks, Chuck Behm



Not to be pedantic but this on also should have the tail bent upwards (as it appears on the photo) to finish up close to the loop(s)
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159805 - 09/29/13 07:52 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3575
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Looking at those German loops Ian posted, it confuses me why an asymmetrical loop would be at all desirable. I would have though the centered loop Chuck posted would be superior. It anchors to the hitch pin in a direct line. I've tied lots of knots in ropes on sailing boats and tying down loads on trailers and one thing you learn is that asymmetrical knots will eventually self-center, which results in lost tension. They tend towards straight lines of force and symmetry. If they don't, they will slip or try to rotate what they are hitched to. Now, I understand that piano wire acts more like a solid than a rope due to its enormous stiffness, but I would have thought the "stretching in" process would take longer for the asymmetrical loops than for the one Chuck posted. It looks to me like the only advantage of the German loop would be that it's easier and faster to tie. Maybe nothing I mention matters in the real piano world. The German loops are quite attractive looking.

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#2159811 - 09/29/13 08:02 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Originally Posted By: Withindale

Loops in a German piano. The originals appear to have been longer.

Chuck, you make the best looking loops but one important question is which type produces the longest sustain.


Oh dear, Another one. It just looks out of context to see the tail on the bottom one pointing the wrong way. The second one up is better and it finishes up actually on the punching and not on the paint of the plate like the others. I am used to seeing slightly longer tails on every single strung piano I have ever seen. To have the tails sticking out at rightangles looks good but the tails still touch the plate. It defys the purpose of the punching. Again, I have never seen this on factory stringing. It is strange to look at it pointing that way.

If we're going to copy factory, let's do precisely as they do. It really really is for stability reasons to have the tail pointing toward the loop, not away. There is a very good reason for it.
_________________________
Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159815 - 09/29/13 08:15 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA


Hi rxd - More like this then?

[img:center]http://[/img]


Thanks for your help with this. Chuck
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#2159821 - 09/29/13 08:34 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Quote:
"It just looks out of context to see the tail on the bottom one pointing the wrong way. The second one up is better and it finishes up actually on the punching and not on the paint of the plate like the others. I am used to seeing slightly longer tails. On every single strung piano I have ever seen. To have the tails sticking out at rightangles looks good but the tails still touch the plate. It defys the purpose of the punching. Again, I have never seen this on factory stringing. It is strange to look at it pointing that way." - rxd


Dear rxd - Unless the piano in the photo which Ian posted has been restrung twice in its lifetime, the tails put on by the factory both touched the plate, and left the string at right angles, at least if the impression in the finish on the plate is any indication. Chuck
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#2159847 - 09/29/13 09:29 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Yes, Chuck, well spotted. The original tails look to have been twice as long, the bottom one even longer. I have seen them square to the string but not often. None of this is surprising, rebuilders are always decrying original factory work, this is yet another instance.

While consistently square can look neater, it is an additional safety factor to have them longer and pointing toward the loop just like your corrected photo shows, thank you.

As for the double or single loop, I look after a piano that has single loops that, when it was breaking strings, the broken treble string always flew out the back of the piano. This is a health and safety issue for other musicians on the stage. Could it be that double loops make this hazard less likely?? Was the introduction of return stringing also to lessen this hazard?
Just a thought.
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Concert & Recording tuner-tech, London, England.
"in theory, practice and theory are the same thing. In practice, they're not." - Lawrence P. 'Yogi' Berra.

Eschew obfuscation.



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#2159895 - 09/30/13 01:59 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm

Quote:
"Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered." - Jon Page


Hi Jon - I haven't seen Ron's procedure, but I'm picturing a loop like this:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Is that what you're talking about? Chuck


While I know this is a quick demonstration photo, but it is important that the tail of the windings should bend back up towards the loop(s) for stability. In this photo, it bends away from the loops.


Also more bends on the wire more effort, I see no interest in centering the wire.

The tail up of course, that way does not touch the neighbors, also.
The S shape guarantee that all tails will be up and similar. The dent in the plate paint is under the cloth. Hidden.


Edited by Olek (09/30/13 02:12 AM)
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#2159898 - 09/30/13 02:09 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Withindale

Loops in a German piano. The originals appear to have been longer.

Chuck, you make the best looking loops but one important question is which type produces the longest sustain.


That was in an east German piano I presume.

Rebuilders always complain from factory work while many did not work in any.

Factories workers do mistakes or have low quality control, but bashing factory work make the rebuilder look smart in his own eye an the ones of the colleagues.

To me without as much time constrain factory trained techs would do a far better job, generally speaking. And rebuilders mistakes, I stopped counting them. (while I mostly see costly repairs that need to be done again partly, and little rebuilding)




Edited by Olek (09/30/13 02:18 AM)
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#2159938 - 09/30/13 05:22 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Mark R. Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 2002
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
I have a question about starting the coil around the long wire.

As the short end of the string leaves the hitch-pin, does it go underneath the long wire (between the plate and the wire), or over the top of the long wire? The first case, as shown in Chuck's very first picture in this thread, needs a whole number of windings in the loop, so that the tang ends up against the plate, while the latter needs an extra half-loop in the coil (2.5 or 3.5 windings), as shown in Chuck's second photo and others on this thread.

I've seen both in apparently originally strung pianos. Is there a preferred method?
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#2159950 - 09/30/13 06:56 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
James Carney Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/30/10
Posts: 440
Loc: new york city
Hi Chuck,

Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Looking at your double loop, I noticed the tang is reversed; on every single strung piano I've seen the tangs all go under the string on the right hand side, from the player's perspective.
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#2159961 - 09/30/13 07:41 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: James Carney]
Chuck Behm Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/12/10
Posts: 671
Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA
Dear Isaac, Dave, Jim, Jon, Ian, rxd, ando, Mark, James and others - Well, this topic has proven to be more complicated than I ever imagined, but really, really interesting.

However, a new 'twist' in the plot as of this morning may make the previous discussion academic - rummaging through the old stringing felts from the Chickering I came across the understring felts used at the back of the treble section and found this:

[img:center]http://[/img ]

For some reason, I had been thinking this piano had the individual red punchings under the back of the strings. The single loop that I posted in the initial message was hanging on a nail on the parts trolley where the parts to the Chickering were, and I thought that was how the strings were done up.

Thinking back, however, I realized that during the refinishing phase of the projects, that the parts got moved from one parts trolley to another when pianos were shuffled about the shop a bit. So the example loop that was hanging on the nail came from another piano. Which one, I have no idea at this point. Ditto the individual punching. Another piano - chalk it up to brain fog.

Since the evidence in the felt is for hitch pin loops with a long, twisted winding this is what I'm leaning towards using now:

[img:center]http://[/img]

The tang will be under the string and be pushed down when the string is brought up to tension. I know that the direction of the winding is reversed from what it was, but if I try doing it the other way on my winder, the tang seems to double back on me - not sure why. (I can post a photo if it's not clear.) However, the tang is now going in the direction you're suggesting it should, James, so maybe it's okay? Also, if it's important to bend the tang up towards the loop, as rxd made clear, I can do that of course. Opinions?

Anyway, unless someone has a really good reason why I should switch styles from what it was, this is what we'll be using. We're going to start stringing as soon as we've cut the holes in the new understring felt, so within an hour or two.

At any rate, thanks to all for your help - the discussion can go on if you have more to say, even if the work on this piano has been done. There are always more pianos down the road, and information like this is very valuable. Chuck



Edited by Chuck Behm (09/30/13 07:45 AM)
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#2159963 - 09/30/13 07:48 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/09/11
Posts: 1940
Loc: Suffolk, England
Originally Posted By: Olek
That was in an east German piano I presume.

The strings were probably replaced in Scotland 5 to 10 years ago. I will have to ask again.

Here is photo of a similar piano restored in Dresden (or Poland?) in 2011.



Two coils instead of three but longer tangs. The (larger) original shows some evidence of previous tangs from three coil loops scratching against the plate - see rightmost three coils.

As the strings are thinner in the high treble, the tang is closer to the pin after three turns and digs into the felt.

A possible reason for the tang digging into the plate is to to keep the string straight all the way from the bridge to the side of the pin before it curves round the back of the pin. That's a guess.
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Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
Ibach, 1922 49" upright (project piano)

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#2159972 - 09/30/13 08:21 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Withindale Offline
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Chuck, in principle I'd say it's better for the string to be entirely straight from the bridge to the pin. This ensures there are no kinks to dissipate longitudinal wave energy which, according to the physics, is more important than some previously realised.

In practice, you might as well adopt the original coiling method which must have given acceptable results.
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#2159982 - 09/30/13 08:41 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
Dear Isaac, Dave, Jim, Jon, Ian, rxd, ando, Mark, James and others - Well, this topic has proven to be more complicated than I ever imagined, but really, really interesting.

However, a new 'twist' in the plot as of this morning may make the previous discussion academic - rummaging through the old stringing felts from the Chickering I came across the understring felts used at the back of the treble section and found this:

[img:center]http://[/img ]

For some reason, I had been thinking this piano had the individual red punchings under the back of the strings. The single loop that I posted in the initial message was hanging on a nail on the parts trolley where the parts to the Chickering were, and I thought that was how the strings were done up.

Thinking back, however, I realized that during the refinishing phase of the projects, that the parts got moved from one parts trolley to another when pianos were shuffled about the shop a bit. So the example loop that was hanging on the nail came from another piano. Which one, I have no idea at this point. Ditto the individual punching. Another piano - chalk it up to brain fog.

Since the evidence in the felt is for hitch pin loops with a long, twisted winding this is what I'm leaning towards using now:

[img:center]http://[/img]

The tang will be under the string and be pushed down when the string is brought up to tension. I know that the direction of the winding is reversed from what it was, but if I try doing it the other way on my winder, the tang seems to double back on me - not sure why. (I can post a photo if it's not clear.) However, the tang is now going in the direction you're suggesting it should, James, so maybe it's okay? Also, if it's important to bend the tang up towards the loop, as rxd made clear, I can do that of course. Opinions?

Anyway, unless someone has a really good reason why I should switch styles from what it was, this is what we'll be using. We're going to start stringing as soon as we've cut the holes in the new understring felt, so within an hour or two.

At any rate, thanks to all for your help - the discussion can go on if you have more to say, even if the work on this piano has been done. There are always more pianos down the road, and information like this is very valuable. Chuck



Chuck, those tend to untwist if not finished with a tight double or triple coil. I use a machine to do that sort of eyelets , ass bass winders do.

the double loop with the centered wire the knot may put the wire at risk of breaking in my opinion. It need to have some give and just a light kink that install when the wire is finally tense.

the tang, under the coils, near the plate so it is stable.

The coils need to be very tight or they tighten with tension and that moves the tang .

those 90° tangs are considered lesser quality work.As you see some goes under the next string.

I prefer a hook to make eyelets.

I said "S chape" because that is what is practically done before the extra lenght is cut. At that point the eyelet is stable yet, mostly because the last move have tightened the coils well.




Edited by Olek (09/30/13 12:22 PM)
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#2159984 - 09/30/13 08:49 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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a little training may be necessary. a better steel clamp than the one sold originally can help too.
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#2159986 - 09/30/13 08:53 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: James Carney]
Withindale Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Carney
Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Hi James,

There could be a diasdvantage. The coil at the hitch pin needs to be properly seated. A double loop could make that more difficult.

Do you come across any of the new Yamaha CF pianos? It would be interesting to know exactly what they have done.
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#2160008 - 09/30/13 09:51 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
bkw58 Offline

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Registered: 03/14/09
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Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Hi James,

There could be a diasdvantage. The coil at the hitch pin needs to be properly seated. A double loop could make that more difficult. ...


Some 20 years ago a tech traveling through these parts paid a visit to the shop touting the double loop method. "Everyone was adopting it," we were told. Ultimately it was this seating issue and consequent effects unknown upon pianos many and varied, that made us decide not to use it. With respect to the subject at hand, we usually duplicated exactly what we replaced. This doesn't mean that factory is always right. (In certain areas - most notably in the action - factory can be [and has been] improved upon.) Only that anytime we change something almost invariably something else has to be changed as well. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that either. But ideas have consequences and time is money. Best to think it through. Unless there is a compelling reason for change, it is best to leave well-enough alone.


Edited by bkw58 (09/30/13 09:54 AM)
Edit Reason: typos
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#2160011 - 09/30/13 10:03 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Hi James,

There could be a diasdvantage. The coil at the hitch pin needs to be properly seated. A double loop could make that more difficult.

Do you come across any of the new Yamaha CF pianos? It would be interesting to know exactly what they have done.


It is not a problem with double loops coils as they need to be made tight and precise. They take more time to produce.

Now they are called "German loops" may be it is just in the idea of making something more robust better tightened around the pin . Robustness and reinforcing is well in the German state of mind .
The termination probably acts a little differently.

When the plate is considered as an "active part" acoustically, I can understand the wish for a firmer hold of the wire on the pin, be it at that location.
May be it was tested and find better tone wise.


Edited by Olek (09/30/13 10:04 AM)
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#2160014 - 09/30/13 10:14 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: bkw58]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Withindale
Originally Posted By: James Carney
Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Hi James,

There could be a diasdvantage. The coil at the hitch pin needs to be properly seated. A double loop could make that more difficult. ...


Some 20 years ago a tech traveling through these parts paid a visit to the shop touting the double loop method. "Everyone was adopting it," we were told. Ultimately it was this seating issue and consequent effects unknown upon pianos many and varied, that made us decide not to use it. With respect to the subject at hand, we usually duplicated exactly what we replaced. This doesn't mean that factory is always right. (In certain areas - most notably in the action - factory can be [and has been] improved upon.) Only that anytime we change something almost invariably something else has to be changed as well. Not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that either. But ideas have consequences and time is money. Best to think it through. Unless there is a compelling reason for change, it is best to leave well-enough alone.


Sure the actions evolved, different mass placement, different backchecks, then different key ratios going together with that.

On some pianos that where originally using the straight lever geometry hence a more percussive tone, mounting the new whippens, changing the backchecks, gives a smoother feel, but the tone loose part of its characteristics.

Also those actions where a tad noisy and heavy, often leaded plus strong assist springs. (pushed to have more fundamental and a strong fff) Those are really "percussive" instruments.

For the one that liked the original tone for that reasons he may be aware of the change in impact expected.
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#2160053 - 09/30/13 12:06 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2381
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
Dear Isaac, Dave, Jim, Jon, Ian, rxd, ando, Mark, James and others - Well, this topic has proven to be more complicated than I ever imagined, but really, really interesting.

However, a new 'twist' in the plot as of this morning may make the previous discussion academic - rummaging through the old stringing felts from the Chickering I came across the understring felts used at the back of the treble section and found this:

[img:center]http://[/img ]

For some reason, I had been thinking this piano had the individual red punchings under the back of the strings. The single loop that I posted in the initial message was hanging on a nail on the parts trolley where the parts to the Chickering were, and I thought that was how the strings were done up.

Thinking back, however, I realized that during the refinishing phase of the projects, that the parts got moved from one parts trolley to another when pianos were shuffled about the shop a bit. So the example loop that was hanging on the nail came from another piano. Which one, I have no idea at this point. Ditto the individual punching. Another piano - chalk it up to brain fog.

Since the evidence in the felt is for hitch pin loops with a long, twisted winding this is what I'm leaning towards using now:

[img:center]http://[/img]

The tang will be under the string and be pushed down when the string is brought up to tension. I know that the direction of the winding is reversed from what it was, but if I try doing it the other way on my winder, the tang seems to double back on me - not sure why. (I can post a photo if it's not clear.) However, the tang is now going in the direction you're suggesting it should, James, so maybe it's okay? Also, if it's important to bend the tang up towards the loop, as rxd made clear, I can do that of course. Opinions?

Anyway, unless someone has a really good reason why I should switch styles from what it was, this is what we'll be using. We're going to start stringing as soon as we've cut the holes in the new understring felt, so within an hour or two.

At any rate, thanks to all for your help - the discussion can go on if you have more to say, even if the work on this piano has been done. There are always more pianos down the road, and information like this is very valuable. Chuck



Hi Chuck,

To me, this is typical of Chickering to do something novel like this. Not necessarily a bad thing, just different.

These windings I would wind on my loop maker, much like the photo Isaac posted, and in my experience, these windings were even more dependent on the tang being bent up toward the hitch pin. If I didn't, I could practically watch them unravel as I put tension on the string. Or, as RXD suggests, tight coils at the end help, just like it's done on a bass string.

I agree, this is fascinating.
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#2160055 - 09/30/13 12:10 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: James Carney]
OperaTenor Offline
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Originally Posted By: James Carney
Hi Chuck,

Not that it necessarily matters, but none of the current production single-strung pianos use double loops. (Bösendorfer, Blüthner, August Förster; nor does Estonia or Mason & Hamlin who both incorporate lots of single-tied strings for backscale spacing reasons.)

I would think if there was an advantage to double loops they would use them.

Looking at your double loop, I noticed the tang is reversed; on every single strung piano I've seen the tangs all go under the string on the right hand side, from the player's perspective.


I realize it's not in the same class as the pianos to which you refer, but the 10 ten-old K&C's that used to be at the Shout House had double loops. Since we replaced so many strings, we experimented with single-looping, and they would come unwound every time.

And yes, the tang should point to the right.
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#2160060 - 09/30/13 12:25 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Withindale Offline
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Is this Bösendorfer video showing a single or double loop?
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Schiedmayer & Soehne, 1925 Model 14, 55" upright
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#2160065 - 09/30/13 12:39 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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double with S shape as far as I can see.

about twice fast than me !


Edited by Olek (09/30/13 12:41 PM)
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#2160068 - 09/30/13 12:47 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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It looked like single-loop to me. Kinda cool to see it all done by hand like that.
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#2160070 - 09/30/13 12:51 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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it is always done by hand for what I know.

2 turns then the coils then the tail. precise diameter for the hook
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#2160078 - 09/30/13 01:10 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Quote:
"Is this Bösendorfer video showing a single or double loop?" Ian Russel


Hi Ian - Hard to tell, it goes so fast. I'm amazed how precisely he winds the final windings after the loops. I use the old-fashioned dowel with a hole and a screw, and can't do it nearly that fast. Very interesting video.

Here's my set-up, not much to it:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Actually, however, it's more complex than the jig Bösendorfer uses, which I guess is saying something - what, I don't know. (Maybe that I don't have the same amount of dexterity that the factory work has!) Chuck





Edited by Chuck Behm (09/30/13 01:17 PM)
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#2160096 - 09/30/13 01:52 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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you may want to try, it is easier by hand than one think.

for strongest gauges pliers can be used.

see how a crank is made with the extra wire to turn the coils.

most piano work is based on such technical gesture. If one have no chance to see it it may be difficult to invent something as efficient.


Edited by Olek (09/30/13 02:11 PM)
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#2160103 - 09/30/13 02:18 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
bkw58 Offline

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Registered: 03/14/09
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My set-up for loop and wind in the field was primitive and economical: a long #___ nail (don't recall the #), a vise grip and something (anything) steady. As inconvenient as it seems, it worked.

I like Isaac's set-up much better thumb
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#2160107 - 09/30/13 02:33 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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Some old T hammers had a hook on the handle that allow to make those sort of long twisted eyelet (as on harpsichord T hammers).
I do not carry my loop machine with me, but round pliers that can be used for many other things. (and that is how I learned to do the single loop first, by hand, it push hard on the thumb for the thick gauges). OK for occasional eyelet, then the fixed hook is more the professional way indeed ; way faster.

Pianos with plain wire using that long twisted eyelets are exceptionally rare in the field. Some East German or Polish pianos from the 80's, never on a reputed brand.



Edited by Olek (09/30/13 02:36 PM)
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#2160191 - 09/30/13 06:47 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: OperaTenor]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Quote:
"These windings I would wind on my loop maker, much like the photo Isaac posted, and in my experience, these windings were even more dependent on the tang being bent up toward the hitch pin. If I didn't, I could practically watch them unravel as I put tension on the string. Or, as RXD suggests, tight coils at the end help, just like it's done on a bass string." - Jim Boydston


Jim (and RXD) - Is this more what you all have in mind?: [img:center]http://[/img]

Dave didn't start on the stringing yet today - too many last minute things to get done first (bolting down plate, polishing and reinstalling agraffes [one of which broke], cutting understring felt, etc.) So, I'm still considering what style to go with. Chuck
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#2160197 - 09/30/13 06:58 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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Chuck, IMO, that is a thing of beauty... wink

I don't think you can go wrong with that.
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#2160206 - 09/30/13 07:18 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: OperaTenor]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Jim - This is all kind of fun when you start experimenting with it. As a kid, I used to tie a lot of fishing lures, plus my dad paid me to wrap oboe reads (for a nickle each). I would wrap them, and he would do all the scraping and finishing. (Of course, he only sold them at that time for $2 each, so he wasn't raking in the money either.)

I do like this last version. I don't think Dave will be thrilled, but he'll learn to love it. Maybe. Chuck
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#2160231 - 09/30/13 09:02 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
msks Online   content
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The Chickering factory had a very unique long loop they used. Sorry I don't have a photo. It is made with the string winder like Schaff sells. Not easy to get uniform results. THe felt you have is only showing part of the twisting .Other styles are probably more stable and easier to do.

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#2160236 - 09/30/13 10:20 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
BDB Online   content
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The reason Chickering used those loops (English, as opposed to German) is that some of their plates did not have the proper clearances for the German loops.
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#2160245 - 09/30/13 10:56 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: BDB]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Thanks everyone for all the useful information. I feel like I know quite a bit more today about the topic than I did a couple of days ago. I'll post a photo of the completed job on the Chickering by the end of the week.

In the meantime, if anyone cares to discuss this topic further, do so by all means. It's been very enlightening. Thanks again. Chuck


Edited by Chuck Behm (09/30/13 10:56 PM)
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#2160269 - 10/01/13 12:39 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Maximillyan Offline
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One loop is the perfect solution. Than less deformation of steel during we are twist that more durable is its service life. The string breaking in the loop very rare . Why do two loops? I do not understand
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#2160285 - 10/01/13 01:53 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
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I just looked at a '70's Blüthner, the tails go out at rightangles. The 70's Bösendorfer is beautiful. the tails come off the winding in a broad curve towards the loop and the whole thing sits neatly within the punching with about a 1.5mm border. Very elegant and very consistent.

All done by hand, it's only in 1970's America that everybody started making jigs for every single job. It slowed down the work enormously with no advantage in neatness. Throw away those jigs, guys, and do things with your hands like a true craftsman. Even in the factory clip it's only basically a pin in a vice.

A perfectly good loop can be made in seconds with a pair of needle nose pliers and enough length on the tail before you trim it so that you can make windings and tangs with little effort. A bit wasteful of wire, like the video but it's only an inch or so. Pity we don't see the finished result clearlyon the video. Look at an original 70's Bose when you get a chance. I have a picture but I'll have to wait til I'm at my desktop to post it and I have this phobia about sitting behind a desk. Anybody know how to transfer iPhone photos to here with just an iPhone?
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#2160289 - 10/01/13 02:03 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Throw away those jigs, guys and do things with your hands like a true craftsman.
A perfectly good loop can be made on seconds with a pair of needle nose pliers and enough length on the tail before you trim it so that you can make windings with little effort.

With one loop?
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#2160293 - 10/01/13 02:33 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
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Yes, Max, one loop. I don't know the reasoning behind two loops. The idea might even have come from the sales department.
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#2160296 - 10/01/13 02:50 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Maximillyan Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Yes, Max, one loop.

Thank MY teacher, it seems to me today I got right idea about a loop
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#2160299 - 10/01/13 02:58 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
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I have seen triple loops on a Bösendorfer.
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#2160303 - 10/01/13 03:22 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Mark R. Offline
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My 1970 Ibach upright has German eyes with double loops, both on the bass strings and the singly hitched plain strings. And the waste end, as it leaves the hitch-pin, goes below the string, then makes exactly three full turns in the coil.
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#2160306 - 10/01/13 03:55 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Mark R.]
rxd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
My 1970 Ibach upright has German eyes with double loops, .... .


.....and a Hapsburg lip?
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#2160320 - 10/01/13 05:06 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm

Quote:
"These windings I would wind on my loop maker, much like the photo Isaac posted, and in my experience, these windings were even more dependent on the tang being bent up toward the hitch pin. If I didn't, I could practically watch them unravel as I put tension on the string. Or, as RXD suggests, tight coils at the end help, just like it's done on a bass string." - Jim Boydston


Jim (and RXD) - Is this more what you all have in mind?: [img:center]http://[/img]

Dave didn't start on the stringing yet today - too many last minute things to get done first (bolting down plate, polishing and reinstalling agraffes [one of which broke], cutting understring felt, etc.) So, I'm still considering what style to go with. Chuck



Sorry, I missed this.

not exactly, that is beautiful for a covered string but the twisting is traditionally found unnecessary for plain wire strings. just the winding is sufficient
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#2160324 - 10/01/13 05:35 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Withindale Offline
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Trying both types on a unison, "German" and "Chickering" in turn, might settle the matter if one type sounded better and sustained the higher partials for longer than the other.


Edited by Withindale (10/01/13 05:51 AM)
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#2160326 - 10/01/13 05:39 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
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On another '70's Bosendorfer I just examined, the tails,(tangs) finish up alongside the loop, almost touching.

Still, everything is neatly contained within the punching, 3.5 windings takes the winding to the edge of the punching and the tang has almost a continuous curve towards the loop.

I've just spent 15 minutes with a piece of wire trying to copy exactly how they did it. Its impossible to see the final movement and its results before he cuts it on the video. thats where the secret lies. I cannot even see the finished tang because it is behind the loop. but there is a decided curve as the tang comes away from the windings in the finished article
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#2160329 - 10/01/13 05:50 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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Dear RXD I described that at the begin of the thread, the last motion tighten the coils and shape the tail
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#2160330 - 10/01/13 05:56 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm

Quote:
"These windings I would wind on my loop maker, much like the photo Isaac posted, and in my experience, these windings were even more dependent on the tang being bent up toward the hitch pin. If I didn't, I could practically watch them unravel as I put tension on the string. Or, as RXD suggests, tight coils at the end help, just like it's done on a bass string." - Jim Boydston


Jim (and RXD) - Is this more what you all have in mind?: [img:center]http://[/img]

Dave didn't start on the stringing yet today - too many last minute things to get done first (bolting down plate, polishing and reinstalling agraffes [one of which broke], cutting understring felt, etc.) So, I'm still considering what style to go with. Chuck



Sorry, I missed this.

not exactly, that is beautiful for a covered string but the twisting is traditionally found unnecessary for plain wire strings. just the winding is sufficient


if not they need to be twisted tight or they will not hold. I never seen them without at last one coil at the extremity

There is not tang when that kind of loop is used, . with the gig this is done automatically.
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#2160336 - 10/01/13 06:40 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
rxd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Olek

sorry



Yes!!!. Just like the strings on the piano that is partially visible in front and under the board that you have the samples on but more of a broad curve and slightly longer. . It's that broader curve that I couldn't get with just pliers but that's it, just so everything stays within the circumference of the punching. I farm put all my restringing but occasionally make the odd replacement.

Thanks, Isaac, I missed that.


Edited by rxd (10/01/13 07:06 AM)
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#2160347 - 10/01/13 07:11 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
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The main thing is that the string excercises it's pull as low down the hitch pin as possible. A single loop is as close as can be to the plate. Do double and triple loops exercise pulling force higher up the hitchpin? That would be far less stable if it were so, at least in simplistic theory.


Edited by rxd (10/01/13 07:24 AM)
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#2160350 - 10/01/13 07:20 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Withindale Offline
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As I see it you know where the contact is with a single loop. You may not with double and triple loops. That may matter when seating the string at the hitch pin.


Edited by Withindale (10/01/13 07:23 AM)
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#2160353 - 10/01/13 07:28 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd


Yes!!!. Just like the strings on the piano that is partially visible in front and under the board that you have the samples on but more of a broad curve and slightly longer. . It's that broader curve that I couldn't get with just pliers but that's it, just so everything stays within the circumference of the punching. I farm put all my restringing but occasionally make the odd replacement.

Thanks, Isaac, I missed that.
Yes, I wonder if the more springy termination have an impact on tone, but it is neat anyway.

the cut strings where replaced once partly, in some sections, on that Boesendorfer, about 10 years ago, the eyelets at the bottom are originals, the one at the top a mix

As they did not reshape the capo, the strings where breaking regularely, they all had to be changed once again.

Seem to me that on another one , from 1985 there where double looped , but I am probably wrong.



Edited by Olek (10/01/13 07:32 AM)
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#2160354 - 10/01/13 07:55 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
Withindale Offline
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Originally Posted By: Olek
I wonder if the more springy termination have an impact on tone, but it is neat anyway.

I suspect the most important thing is energy. If a termination dissipates energy it is not good. When reseating a string livens up a note more energy is going into the sound.
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#2160360 - 10/01/13 08:09 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Mark R. Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
The main thing is that the string excercises it's pull as low down the hitch pin as possible. A single loop is as close as can be to the plate. Do double and triple loops exercise pulling force higher up the hitchpin? That would be far less stable if it were so, at least in simplistic theory.


Which is exactly why I posted what I did about my Ibach. The string reaches the hitch-pin at quite a high position, and yet, it is one of the most stable uprights I know. (What's more, it's just told me that it also knows how to spell the name, Habsburg. smirk )
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#2160367 - 10/01/13 08:21 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
The main thing is that the string excercises it's pull as low down the hitch pin as possible. A single loop is as close as can be to the plate. Do double and triple loops exercise pulling force higher up the hitchpin? That would be far less stable if it were so, at least in simplistic theory.


Yes that is a factor that can even bend the pin, but stronger pin can be used, as it is probably the case with the double loop.

the force of the string is not so much higher with the double loop.
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#2160395 - 10/01/13 09:24 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Johnkie Offline
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Surely unless someone has inverted the string, it matters not whether it's strung with single, double or triple coils. The main point as already identified by others here, is that the exit of the string touches the frame where it can handle most tension without fear of ever bending the hitch pin. Only if the string is inverted will it sit further up the hitch pin.
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#2160400 - 10/01/13 09:37 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Johnkie]
Withindale Offline
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Originally Posted By: Johnkie
Surely unless someone has inverted the string, it matters not whether it's strung with single, double or triple coils.

Yes, I agree Johnkie, but do they all always sound the same? Single coils work so why introduce complications unless they improve the sound?
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#2160403 - 10/01/13 09:52 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Withindale]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Preferences (Regarding tails)?:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Edit: Or 'E' - none of the above.

This is not congress! Your vote will be heard! Chuck



Edited by Chuck Behm (10/01/13 10:40 AM)
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#2160404 - 10/01/13 09:53 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Johnkie Offline
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Not sure whether it is any more complicated Ian, just a matter of doing things slightly differently. I always try to copy whatever has previously been done when re-stringing but to be perfectly honest, have never noticed any improvement or reduction in tone when comparing these different methods of string attachments. The common use of listing braid in between the strings damps off most transferred sounds that may otherwise reach the hitch pins anyhow, as do felt washers under the coils, so I personally can't see any point in worrying about it unduly.
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#2160405 - 10/01/13 09:56 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm

Preferences (Regarding tails)?:

[img:center]http://[/img]

This is not congress! Your vote will be heard! Chuck



No tail , for me, in that case as when those eyeletts are used there is no rest place for tails, the coils are outside the plate (the ones I noticed use that setup)

The last version without tail is OK for me.

If too much twisted, the wire will break when tense, also (A & C)


Edited by Olek (10/01/13 09:58 AM)
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#2160409 - 10/01/13 10:03 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Johnkie Offline
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Chuck - for what it's worth I personally don't like any of them. There is little point in having tails with this type of hitch pin looping. I will however add that I have on occasions found that this type of winding can tend to weaken the steel unless done with the expertise of an experienced string maker, causing failure at either the loop or in some cases, the long winding itself.

I have never seen such failures when normal single or double coils have been emloyed.
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#2160423 - 10/01/13 10:56 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Mark R.]
rxd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
My 1970 Ibach upright has German eyes with double loops, both on the bass strings and the singly hitched plain strings. And the waste end, as it leaves the hitch-pin, goes below the string, then makes exactly three full turns in the coil.


That's interesting, the string is held up off the plate by the first winding and the tang. I can only assume it is intentional although there are many stories of operatives being taught a certain way on their first day and then coming back from lunch and doing everything the opposite way. In a case like this it would have been left as is.

Ibach had some nice ideas and I have a feeling it would have been intentional.
Are there cloth or brass punchings?

I only see two Ibachs and they both stay in tune for ever so I don't know when I'll see one next but I'll certainly look with interest.
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#2160458 - 10/01/13 12:51 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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Chuck, out of what you have pictured, I would vote for A. But, as others have alluded, with the tang, you don't necessarily need those last tight windings, or, vice versa.

In my experience with the Shout House K&C's, the windings and tang did prevent the string from seating on the plate, but it appeared to have no detrimental affect. FWIW...
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#2160464 - 10/01/13 12:57 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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The tail could be on the opposite side as well, it just look different. Less nice in my opinion.

I believe that despite the muting, stringing braid and rest felt, some waves at last longitudinal, goes to the hitch pin.

The amont of absorption in that direction may vary depending of the loop style.
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#2160543 - 10/01/13 05:22 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: OperaTenor]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Quote:
"with the tang, you don't necessarily need those last tight windings, or, vice versa." - Jim Boydston


Hi Jim - Dave wasn't able to get to the stringing today, and I had other work to do, so it's still on hold. I did take the time to try a couple of styles I like - one with and one without a tail (or tang).

Opinions on these? Chuck

[img:center]http://[/img]
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#2160552 - 10/01/13 05:41 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Mark R. Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Are there cloth or brass punchings?


Neither, actually.

The bearing bar that's cast into the plate is covered by a stringing felt, but the hitch-pin area is completely devoid of felts.

See also my galery (sorry, it's the best picture I have):
https://plus.google.com/photos/111881765589938730993/albums/5456921857934061809?banner=pwa
Second and third photos. To whit:


Not the best picture, I know (it's a crop from a much larger image), but definitely the string attaches to the hitch-pin quite high, and the two windings that go around the hitch-pin, are below the string. And yet, all this "high hitching" doesn't seem to affect stability at all.

Closing remark: yes, I know, the bridge pinning is atrocious. One of the lesser fortunate hallmarks of local, South African manufacture in the 1970s...
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#2160564 - 10/01/13 06:05 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
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Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm

Quote:
"with the tang, you don't necessarily need those last tight windings, or, vice versa." - Jim Boydston


Hi Jim - Dave wasn't able to get to the stringing today, and I had other work to do, so it's still on hold. I did take the time to try a couple of styles I like - one with and one without a tail (or tang).

Opinions on these? Chuck

[img:center]http://[/img]


The ones on the right are what I am used to seeing.

This photo illustrates the problem with German loops on Chickerings. The center hitch pin is so close to the side pins that the tail will interfere with seating of one of the adjacent strings.
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#2160572 - 10/01/13 06:48 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Mark R.]
rxd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: rxd
Are there cloth or brass punchings?


Neither, actually.

The bearing bar that's cast into the plate is covered by a stringing felt, but the hitch-pin area is completely devoid of felts.

See also my galery (sorry, it's the best picture I have):
https://plus.google.com/photos/111881765589938730993/albums/5456921857934061809?banner=pwa
Second and third photos. To whit:


Not the best picture, I know (it's a crop from a much larger image), but definitely the string attaches to the hitch-pin quite high, and the two windings that go around the hitch-pin, are below the string. And yet, all this "high hitching" doesn't seem to affect stability at all.

Closing remark: yes, I know, the bridge pinning is atrocious. One of the lesser fortunate hallmarks of local, South African manufacture in the 1970s...


It looks like some of the tangs are anchored in a groove in the plate covered in listing and the rest anchored against the neighbouring hitchpin. Otherwise the angle of the tangs would be a very unstable arrangement.

The stringing is on a par with the bridges.

Ibach made under licence and in SA?. I didn't know that. I'll really take a look at an ibach. They're one of the great manufacturers, historically, although I have seen one from that same era that did look cheapened, surprisingly, it still sounded reasonably good, though with exceptional tuning stability.
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#2160589 - 10/01/13 07:58 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: BDB]
OperaTenor Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm

Quote:
"with the tang, you don't necessarily need those last tight windings, or, vice versa." - Jim Boydston


Hi Jim - Dave wasn't able to get to the stringing today, and I had other work to do, so it's still on hold. I did take the time to try a couple of styles I like - one with and one without a tail (or tang).

Opinions on these? Chuck

[img:center]http://[/img]


The ones on the right are what I am used to seeing.

This photo illustrates the problem with German loops on Chickerings. The center hitch pin is so close to the side pins that the tail will interfere with seating of one of the adjacent strings.


The tails interfered with each other on the Shout House K&C's, too, but it didn't seem to make any difference.

Chuck, I have a feeling the ones on the left are probably how Chickering did it. From a functional standpoint, my money says either will work just fine.
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#2160694 - 10/02/13 01:22 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Olek Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Originally Posted By: rxd
Are there cloth or brass punchings?


Neither, actually.

The bearing bar that's cast into the plate is covered by a stringing felt, but the hitch-pin area is completely devoid of felts.

See also my galery (sorry, it's the best picture I have):
https://plus.google.com/photos/111881765589938730993/albums/5456921857934061809?banner=pwa
Second and third photos. To whit:


Not the best picture, I know (it's a crop from a much larger image), but definitely the string attaches to the hitch-pin quite high, and the two windings that go around the hitch-pin, are below the string. And yet, all this "high hitching" doesn't seem to affect stability at all.

Closing remark: yes, I know, the bridge pinning is atrocious. One of the lesser fortunate hallmarks of local, South African manufacture in the 1970s...


It looks like some of the tangs are anchored in a groove in the plate covered in listing and the rest anchored against the neighbouring hitchpin. Otherwise the angle of the tangs would be a very unstable arrangement.

The stringing is on a par with the bridges.

Ibach made under licence and in SA?. I didn't know that. I'll really take a look at an ibach. They're one of the great manufacturers, historically, although I have seen one from that same era that did look cheapened, surprisingly, it still sounded reasonably good, though with exceptional tuning stability.



the gain of a few mm in back lenght is possibly useful.

I also find Ibach retained their tone while using cheaper ingredients.

on the pic the last pin on the right may be had straightened with the tension


Edited by Olek (10/02/13 01:51 AM)
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#2160722 - 10/02/13 03:51 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Mark R. Offline
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Originally Posted By: rxd
It looks like some of the tangs are anchored in a groove in the plate covered in listing and the rest anchored against the neighbouring hitchpin. Otherwise the angle of the tangs would be a very unstable arrangement.

The stringing is on a par with the bridges.

Ibach made under licence and in SA?. I didn't know that. I'll really take a look at an ibach. They're one of the great manufacturers, historically, although I have seen one from that same era that did look cheapened, surprisingly, it still sounded reasonably good, though with exceptional tuning stability.


Yes, this was in the Dietmann factory that was in operation from the 1950s to the 1980s. Not only was Ibach a co-owner of the factory, but Rolf Ibach actually worked there as a designer, if I remember correctly. They produced Schindhelm, Dietmann, Ibach , Görs & Kallmann, Otto Bach and Fritz Kuhla, and were quite a large exporter (much of this to Germany) in the 70s / 80s. If interested, see also
... the life story of Dietmann factory founder.
... my recent post (and the next one down, on what I've managed to dredge up on the Dietmann factory.

Ibach also produced cheaper pianos in Korea during that time, if I'm informed correctly. But I've never seen or heard one.

But back to Chuck's topic: I'll have a look at the tangs tonight when I'm home. Somehow, I don't think that the arrangement relies on neighbouring hitchpins for anchoring of tangs.
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#2160768 - 10/02/13 08:47 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Phil D Offline
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I love this thread. It's the first I've seen for a long time where nobody thinks they know the definitive answer! smile
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#2160774 - 10/02/13 09:29 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
bkw58 Offline

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...and among the few who really do know are those who are becoming less and less likely to post.
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#2160787 - 10/02/13 10:00 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: bkw58]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Thanks, Bob and Phil. I know that I, for one, am learning a great deal. Like many topics which you think you know something about, when you start digging and discussing the topic with others, you find that you've only scratched the surface.

I have some very interesting results to post this morning, readings that more or less made my mind up for me, as to which style of loop to use on our Chickering project.

Yesterday, when I installed the two sets of test strings, one with "tanged" loops, and the other with "untanged" loops (with tight end windings instead), I set all 6 strings to pitch with my Verituner.

This morning, I checked all 6 strings again, and recorded the readings I got. I expected that all 6 would be considerably flat as the strings stretched a bit - what I didn't expect was the difference in average readings between the two sets.

Here's the photograph again, this time with numbers for reference:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Here are the readings I got:

String 1: - 11 cents
String 2: -18 cents
String 3: -27 cents

Average reading for the "tanged" set = 18.6 cents flat

String 4: - 36 cents
String 5: -45 cents
String 6: -46 cents

Average reading for the "untanged" set = 42.3

I actually took the readings from right to left, and with each string I plucked, the needle got closer to center. When I got to number 1, I thought "Holy cow!" Three or four times less pitch loss than each of the untanged strings!

The strings with the tight windings in place of the curved tang are a bit easier to make (getting the curved tang consistent is challenging), but I don't see how I can ignore those results. I actually like the look of the untanged set better - it looks more normal to me - but still, I value stability more than looks.

Any other thoughts on this? Am I missing something, or do you think I'm on the right track?

Dave isn't coming in to the shop today, but plans on starting restringing tomorrow morning. I'll take readings again at noon and in the evening and post those results as well.

BTW, thanks all for all your contributions to this thread. I like the fact that there has been a lot of information shared with absolutely no put-downs or belittling comments. Piano technicians are becoming a rare breed. We need to stick together and truly support one another. This forum is an excellent way of doing that. Chuck
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#2160807 - 10/02/13 11:02 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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Chuck, I think you're doing it right. I would definitely follow the numbers.

IMO, the tangs ultimately allow for less twist - and therefore, less lowering of tension - than the untanged strings, at least, initially.

Maybe Chickering was on to something... wink



Edited by OperaTenor (10/02/13 11:04 AM)
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#2160835 - 10/02/13 12:41 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Bill McKaig,RPT Offline
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Chuck, maybe you need to carry this experiment a little longer. It might be that examples 4,5,6 stabilized all at once and 1,2,3 will do the same over a longer period of time. I don't really know. Maybe check them every day for a few days and see what happens.
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#2160841 - 10/02/13 12:55 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Bill McKaig,RPT]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Quote:
"Chuck, maybe you need to carry this experiment a little longer. It might be that examples 4,5,6 stabilized all at once and 1,2,3 will do the same over a longer period of time. I don't really know. Maybe check them every day for a few days and see what happens." - Bill McKaig, RPT


Bill - I agree that further testing would yield more definitive results - one or two measurements of the pitch of 3 strings of each style isn't enough to qualify as adequate testing.

However, for this particular piano, it will have to do. We have a hard deadline to meet on completion that I need to focus on.

After this restoration is done, I'll be working on a Baldwin grand that belongs to me (that I'm doing for my daughter). I'll do more substantial testing at that point involving more strings (and more styles), over a longer period of time and will post the results. I won't be hurried on that job at all, in that she already has another very adequate piano in her home that I did for her previously.

Thanks for your suggestion, and hopefully I'll have some more concrete results in the near future. Chuck
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#2160861 - 10/02/13 01:47 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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I do not believe it relate so much... May be the wire gauge gives more stretch on one note than the other.

If they where less stable bass winder would not use those eyelets.

Possibly the metal is more softened when they are made. (do you use a gig?)

In any case à new strings loose a < half step in a few hours, is massaged, etc.

I believe you cannot use the tang everywhere, in some places they cannot lay on something.

Now if originally they look that way it is up to you to decide.

Did the coiled eyelets turn on themselves with tension?


Edited by Olek (10/03/13 02:24 AM)
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#2160867 - 10/02/13 01:57 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
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I think the biggest difference in how stable the loops are initially is how close the diameter of the loop is to the diameter of the hitch pin. Squeeze the side of the loop with pliers, and the amount that the pitch changes should diminish.
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#2160876 - 10/02/13 02:33 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Olek]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Quote:
"If they where less stable bass winder would not use those eyelets." - Isaac Olek


There's a lot of truth to that statement, Isaac. I'm sure that the samples without tangs over a short amount of time will stabilize just as well as the ones with. They are obviously not going to simply unravel. Looking at the felt placement around the hitchpins, it is true that on the low end of the treble, with the curvature of the plate, the tangs would have nothing to rest on. I'll consult with Dave before I have him start to string.

Thanks for your insight and help thinking this through! Chuck
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#2160921 - 10/02/13 05:12 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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The idea of the larger eyelet look appealing, but I looked at bass strings and they do not close, they stay larger than the pin, there. At last for those gauges, but the thin ones act the same as the biggest.



Edited by Olek (10/02/13 05:55 PM)
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#2161358 - 10/03/13 06:56 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
bkw58 Offline

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Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm


...BTW, thanks all for all your contributions to this thread. I like the fact that there has been a lot of information shared with absolutely no put-downs or belittling comments. Piano technicians are becoming a rare breed. We need to stick together and truly support one another. This forum is an excellent way of doing that. Chuck



Thanks, Chuck. What you present is worthwhile science. Hope you can continue with it.

Especially appreciate your closing thought: " Piano technicians are becoming a rare breed. We need to stick together and truly support one another. "

Sometimes I feel like one of two dogs fighting over a bone while the fox is cleaning out the hen house. It's not a good thing.
(Note to All: If you have to ask who the fox is, and exactly which hen house he's been raiding, you now know why he's been so successful at it.)
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#2161569 - 10/04/13 04:41 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Mark R. Offline
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Rxd,

Just some quick feedback. Most of the tangs on my Ibach do not rest against neighbouring hitchpins. It only looked that way because of the camera angle. And yes, while most appear stable, one of them has actually unwound half a turn. I'd mention some more observations, but I'm not sure what to make of Bob's comments, so I'll leave this thread.
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#2161579 - 10/04/13 05:32 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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Sure, I was not aware of the possibility for the coils to unwind if the tang is not angled, but I do it without thinking, and it remind me I have seen it happening in my early days.
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#2161641 - 10/04/13 08:44 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Mark R.]
bkw58 Offline

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Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Rxd,

Just some quick feedback. Most of the tangs on my Ibach do not rest against neighbouring hitchpins. It only looked that way because of the camera angle. And yes, while most appear stable, one of them has actually unwound half a turn. I'd mention some more observations, but I'm not sure what to make of Bob's comments, so I'll leave this thread.


Good morning, Mark:

My comment was intended as positive reinforcement to Chuck's earlier appeal in the thread for piano techs to help and support one another; it speaks to consequences that result from infighting: Such tends to take our eyes off the real competition.

Sometimes I feel like one of two dogs
fighting over a bone while the fox is cleaning out the hen house.
It's not a good thing.
(Note to All: If you have to ask who the fox is,
and exactly which hen house he's been raiding,
you now know why he's been so successful at it.)


Dog #1. Me
Dog #2. Another tech.
Fight: Contentious words.
Bone: An issue, often minutiae.
The Fox: The faux piano.
Hen house: Our market share.

It was allegorical. Perhaps this is not the best way to make a point. My apology.




Edited by bkw58 (10/04/13 08:44 AM)
Edit Reason: typo
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#2162308 - 10/05/13 10:17 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: bkw58]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Loc: Boone, Iowa, USA

Hi all - Here's what we ended up using - we need to bring the strings up to full tension yet and work a bit on evening out the spacing, but this photo gives an idea of the winding we chose to use:

[img:center]http://[/img]


We used the string winder to put the eyelet and long winding, then used our other tool to put the tight final winding on the end, leaving a stubby tang. (These look a lot like how our bass strings that we order through Schaff come back.)

If anyone would like to see how this procedure works, I would be glad to post photos. Chuck
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#2162312 - 10/05/13 10:24 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
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Nice job!
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#2162985 - 10/07/13 11:48 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: BDB]
bkw58 Offline

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Ditto smile
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#2163004 - 10/07/13 12:43 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
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Will they seat more on the right hand side of the loop? One side of the loop looks like it is sitting higher than the other side.

Some, the one in the foreground particularly, looks as though the tang is holding the winding up off the cloth. Could that side of the loop be prevented from seating by the (unnecessary) tang?.
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#2163008 - 10/07/13 12:55 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
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I seat these by tapping lightly just in front of the hitch pin.
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#2163078 - 10/07/13 04:48 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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Beautiful, Chuck!

Wow!
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#2163099 - 10/07/13 05:26 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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I suspected those tang would cause trouble.

It was not worth trying to explain this and that !!

The winding machine usually do not create a tang.


Edited by Olek (10/07/13 05:27 PM)
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#2163120 - 10/07/13 06:15 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Quote:
"Will they seat more on the right hand side of the loop? One side of the loop looks like it is sitting higher than the other side.

Some, the one in the foreground particularly, looks as though the tang is holding the winding up off the cloth. Could that side of the loop be prevented from seating by the (unnecessary) tang?." - rdx


Hi rdx - I'll be able to answer your questions better once we bring the piano up to pitch. I wanted at least a stub of a tang to prevent any loosening of the coil, short enough to not interfer with the adjoining string, but long enough to apply a bit of tension to the coil. The idea was to stop winding with just a hint of downward angle, which is tricky because when you stop the winding process, the tang will spring back by itself. You have to go a bit beyond a perpendicular position in order for it to spring back to the desired angle. The string that's the closest to the camera, in my opinion, has just a bit too much angle - but we'll see when we pitch it up. Dave made the coils after I showed him how - I had to leave to tune for the day. There is a bit of a learning curve on the process, I'm afraid.

Thanks for writing, and for your observations. Chuck
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#2163839 - 10/09/13 09:07 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
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Hi. Chuck. It strikes me that, if leaving a tang on were really necessary, it would be a simple thing to wind the final turn do that the tang sticks up off the stringing cloth at a very slight angle which would twist down to settle firmly on the cloth when at tension.

I have a feeling it wouldn't do that if everythimg is wound toghtly amd seated but I'm not 100% certain. Might be worth another experiment.
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#2163972 - 10/09/13 02:56 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
pianolive Offline
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Hello Chuck,
The tangs can be cut down to by the winding. That will look nice like the rest of your work.
Great string makers like Heller do it that way.

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#2164034 - 10/09/13 05:33 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: pianolive]
Olek Offline
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Loc: France
Originally Posted By: pianolive
Hello Chuck,
The tangs can be cut down to by the winding. That will look nice like the rest of your work.
Great string makers like Heller do it that way.


I dont know if you mean cut with pliers, but the winding machine make just the wind, then it goes out of the hole, no tang remain (and all eyelets are done the same, those small machines are very efficient)

Then when tension is applied the coil turn a little on itself ( not always the same amount just "more or less" the same.
(and some do not turn, seem to me)



Edited by Olek (10/09/13 05:35 PM)
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#2164314 - 10/10/13 07:24 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: pianolive]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Quote:
"The tangs can be cut down to by the winding. That will look nice like the rest of your work.Great string makers like Heller do it that way." - Pianolive


Dear Pianolive, rdx, Isaac and others - At this point the question of whether to trim off the tangs or leave them on is a moot point. I'm afraid Dave would revolt if I asked him to redo his work:

[img:center]http://[/img]

For future jobs that have this type of stringing, I'm wondering if there is any reason to trim off the short tang, other than for the sake of appearance. My string winder leaves me enough wire to put on 2 tight coils, but no more. I've noticed that most strings on other pianos which have a winding followed by tight coils have 3 or 4 tight coils.

My thinking is that the short tang provides a little extra insurance against any loosening of the coils down the road.

Thanks all for your help on this issue, and also on the questions I raised with the 'stepped pinblock.' When you come across something you're uncertain of, it's nice to have a way to bounce your ideas off of others who have more experience than yourself. Chuck
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#2164320 - 10/10/13 07:35 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
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then you may have an issue with the clamp of your string winder.

it probably can be modified so the part of wire inserted in the hole is less long.

it is easier not having to cut anything at the end of the winding.

what I noticed with mine is that the metal used was subject to wear, hopefully a friend had a new piece made in top class metal and offered me one. no more wear. I do not use it so often anyway.

the tang pushing on the coils are robbing you some downbearing (and lack of firmness until they can be put closely in contact).

could you have them laying flat in the end ?

IMO the stringer should have noticed that and ask you further instructions.

Nice looking job BTW


Edited by Olek (10/10/13 07:37 AM)
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#2164394 - 10/10/13 11:20 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
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Your loops are fine. There is nothing to worry about. After all, how often have you seen these loops come undone on bass strings, even when there is nothing under the tangs to hold them in place? It never happens!
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#2164398 - 10/10/13 11:29 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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Chuck, IMNSHO, I think what you've done is excellent. My money says that piano will go another ninety years.





Edited by OperaTenor (10/10/13 11:30 AM)
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#2164546 - 10/10/13 05:47 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
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Originally Posted By: Chuck Behm
Quote:
"The tangs can be cut down to by the winding. That will look nice like the rest of your work.Great string makers like Heller do it that way." - Pianolive


Dear Pianolive, rdx, Isaac and others - At this point the question of whether to trim off the tangs or leave them on is a moot point. I'm afraid Dave would revolt if I asked him to redo his work:

[img:center]http://[/img]

For future jobs that have this type of stringing, I'm wondering if there is any reason to trim off the short tang, other than for the sake of appearance. My string winder leaves me enough wire to put on 2 tight coils, but no more. I've noticed that most strings on other pianos which have a winding followed by tight coils have 3 or 4 tight coils.

My thinking is that the short tang provides a little extra insurance against any loosening of the coils down the road.

Thanks all for your help on this issue, and also on the questions I raised with the 'stepped pinblock.' When you come across something you're uncertain of, it's nice to have a way to bounce your ideas off of others who have more experience than yourself. Chuck



Is this the photograph of the finished article under tension? I can't see the loops in this photograph yet you are being told they look fine.... How can anybody judge based on this photo? They are simply not visible.

Am I missing something?

Do the bass strings have tangs on them?

Did the loops and tangs seat properly? I really would like to know how this arrangement seats with all the strings looking the same and the tangs worthwhile.


Edited by rxd (10/10/13 05:50 PM)
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#2164552 - 10/10/13 06:02 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
OperaTenor Offline
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I can see the loops. I think they look splendid.

I believe Chuck mentioned previously that the bass strings were made by Schaff's bass string duplication service, and therefore I assume they don't have tangs.



Edited by OperaTenor (10/10/13 06:04 PM)
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#2164603 - 10/10/13 08:48 PM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: rxd]
Chuck Behm Offline
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Quote:
"Is this the photograph of the finished article under tension? I can't see the loops in this photograph yet you are being told they look fine.... How can anybody judge based on this photo? They are simply not visible.

Am I missing something?

Do the bass strings have tangs on them?

Did the loops and tangs seat properly? I really would like to know how this arrangement seats with all the strings looking the same and the tangs worthwhile." - rxd


Hi rxd - I can zoom in on a single set of strings, since they're underneath the bass strings (the higher treble are not singletons). If I go any further back with my camera, it wants to focus on the bass strings.:

[img:center]http://[/img]

The piano has been chipped up, but not tuned as of yet. Visually, they seem to be seating okay, at least to my eye.

Here's the windings on the bass strings from Schaff:

[img:center]http://[/img]

There strings have more of the tight coils (up to 8), and also have a very short tang - or at least the strings are not being snipped perfectly flush with the coil. With the tools I have, the best I can do is 2 tight coils - after that I run out of string. One reason I felt that leaving the short tang was a good idea.

But again, for this piano, the stringing is a done deal. I'm working on putting on new hammers and dampers now, and will be putting things back together soon. The case work is done, so we're on the downslope of the project. Chuck




Edited by Chuck Behm (10/10/13 08:49 PM)
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#2164681 - 10/11/13 12:56 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7538
Loc: France
Look neat, so they lay correctly, seem to me.

I was expecting that with more stress the tang would push the coil up more. It may be enough balanced by the tension.

2 windings are that I get with my machine so they must be similar.

Hopefully they are not used up to the treble (you did not tell that)

There is a risk of buzz or parasitic noise where the tang touch lightly the next string.

Not fan of the Schaffer eyelets but it may be the picture, seeing them from so close. Is it why you thought so many coils where necessary, or a tang ?

Will you record the piano ? I heard very few Chickerings, always an experience, the ones I heard had a lot of deepness in a warm solid tone.. (and impossible action, one had the hammer all angled the same)

Very tall skyscraper bass bridge..


Edited by Olek (10/11/13 01:41 AM)
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#2164686 - 10/11/13 01:47 AM Re: Single or Double Loop for Hitch Pin? [Re: Chuck Behm]
rxd Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/11/09
Posts: 1707
Loc: London, England
Thanks, Chuck.

Yes, they look fine. everything looks seated. There are even some tangs on the bass strings that I wouldn't have noticed.

Thanks again, you've made me think about a few things I normally take for granted.
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