2022 our 25th year online!

Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 3 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments.
Over 100,000 members from around the world.
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

SEARCH
Piano Forums & Piano World
(ad)
Who's Online Now
47 members (Cheeeeee, Dalem01, danno858, CharlesXX, Aleks_MG, accordeur, brdwyguy, Dfrankjazz, Carey, 7 invisible), 2,073 guests, and 332 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
[Linked Image]

This past February, I was experiencing debilitating pain in my right hand; namely, the thumb tendon. Not good for anything I do all week long: playing, composing, teaching, performing, and working as a professional piano technician, tuning 16-20 instruments every week.

My doctor and I attributed this pain to repetitive motion, likely from my frequent use of a shorter traditional tuning lever, especially on pianos with ultra-tight pinblocks. I began using my left hand more (I can tune a grand piano with either hand) but it wasn't really helping as much, or as quickly, as I needed it to.

I remembered trying Dan Levitan's unusual C-shaped lever - called the Levitan
"Professional" - at a PTG meeting a few years back, and wondered if that might be a solution. Dan and I are friends, and he was gracious to loan me his second prototype C-lever that Pianotek eventually produced and currently offers for sale. http://www.pianoteksupply.com/products-new.aspx

(See also http://levitantuninglevers.com/professional.html)

There have been several threads in which this lever is mentioned, and in seemingly all of them there have been comments that are doubtful, negative, or even dismissive of the lever, sometimes coming from technicians who have never even tried it for themselves. I too thought the C-lever was very strange the first time I turned a pin with it, but decided I would actually take the time to become accustomed to it before making any judgments.

For the last several years I had been using a Charles Faulk 12" carbon fiber lever with a 1/2" extension and a 5º angle. It's a fantastic tool and probably one of the best out there that money can buy. And due to the short extension and shallow angle of my setup it will flagpole less than many other levers.

So in late April of this year I began using the C-lever for 95% of the pianos I
tuned, both grands and verticals. I've now tuned more than 300 pianos with it.

The result? It's worked out so well that I am now essentially pain-free and more productive than ever.

The Levitan Professional has clearly made me a better tuner while helping my hand heal almost completely. It has made my tunings more stable, more accurate, faster, and less fatiguing.

Like most pros, when I finish a normal full tuning, I go back over every unison to ensure they are all dead on. What I noticed about the Levitan Professional is that I don't have nearly as many corrections to make on the "cleanup" pass. It's truly astonishing. I started taking count of how many strings needed correction on the cleanup, and it is almost always less than 20. In quite a few cases it has been less than 10, with the average between 12-15. With the traditional lever, that number was much higher. And I'm talking about DOA unisons - the kind that get you called back by the recording studio and the demanding player time and again.

I don't know why this lever gives these superior results, but I'm personally not concerned with having to understand the scientific reasons. I suppose it could simply be the fact that the C lever is a couple of inches longer than most traditional levers, with no flex. And I suspect that due to its incredible stiffness it immediately removes or greatly attenuates the twist that often remains in a pin, especially in a tight block. And, you do have to make a real effort to get the C-lever to flagpole, so I also suspect that it's simply doing an incredibly efficient job of moving the pin - and setting it with conviction - inside the block. Dan Levitan offers his point of view on this thread here, agreeing with the discussion of the physics involved as was stated by forum member Tunewerk: http://www.pianoworld.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/1931973/2.html

That said, I probably do know tight pinblocks in new and late model pianos as well as anyone out there. Estonia, for example, makes wonderful pianos at an amazing pricepoint, and the new model 210 is especially impressive. But with the Delignit blocks they use, and the drill bit size they use, it is not exactly a walk in the park for the technician when these pianos are brand new. I've tuned hundreds of Estonia pianos, new and old, so I know what to expect and what needs to be done. It used to be difficult with my other levers, but now, with the Levitan C, it's a breeze, and not only do I get the job done quickly, but accurately. Same goes for those classic Baldwin pinblocks that creak, snap, and crackle when the pins finally turn - the Levitan makes quick work of blocks like that, which in the past had been so frustrating for me. (Even a '64 F that I frequently tune in a recording studio still snaps in humid weather!)

And since I have a number of venues and studios I tune for on a frequent basis, I was able to see a definite improvement with my stability. In some cases the pianos are being played more than 50 hours a week - sometimes brutally - and I was delighted to return and usually find only several questionable unisons, with many still dead on. Even when the overall pitch had changed due to humidity fluctuations.

On technique: The weirdest thing about using the Levitan Pro at first is the fact that - when tuning a grand - you are essentially reversing your movements to go flat and sharp. You push to sharpen and pull to flatten. (On verticals the push/pull to flatten/sharpen will be the same as a trad lever.) This could be a reason why some techs scoff at the tool, or give up too easily. In his demo video, watch how Dan holds the lever - it is important to grasp the lever at the bottom; right on the black plastic sleeve, basically using just the index and middle fingers. The great thing about this hand position is that it is easy to do with the other hand too, so you can easily switch and tune any section of a piano with either hand.

I am both a smooth-pull and impact-style tuner; I just use my instincts to choose the technique that is more appropriate for the piano at hand. (Or the individual pin at hand, really) And I've found that the C-lever can be used effectively in either case. I think it's actually a far better tool for both techniques than a traditional is.

With verticals, I have found that I cannot easily hold the lever the way Dan demonstrates in his video, by resting one's elbow on the top of the case, using the elbow as a pivot point. I've tried but ergonomically it's too uncomfortable for me. So I simply grasp the lever with all four fingers and tune away. The extra leverage makes it so much easier to tune verticals (even with my "unorthodox" technique) and I was also able to quickly learn how to tune verticals left-handed with this lever - something I couldn't seem to do with the traditional lever. For those that have wondered how the C-lever is for verticals; I never use a traditional on them anymore, and have no plans to ever revert back. With a grand I will occasionally switch to a traditional lever, but since the Levitan C lever is so much easier to hold and manipulate on a vertical, I see no reason to use anything else.

I was especially interested to see how the Levitan would perform on the Steingraeber 138, which has the highest tuning pins of any vertical piano I've tuned. I've now used it on 4 different 138 models, and the results were amazing! However, this is a case where one would not be able to hold the lever the way that Dan demonstrates in his video. With a piano like the Steingraeber, that position would be tough if not impossible to achieve. In fact, in the high treble section of the 138, with the Levitan Pro at 12 o'clock on the bottom row of pins, there is only about 4 inches of clearance between the top of the lever and the top of the case. But the way I am holding the lever on verticals (like a motorcycle throttle) there is no problem at all.

I've also used the Levitan Pro on several spinets and many consoles, and
occasionally the tool felt like it had more potential to fall off the pins. And in a few cases I was tuning 60s Acrosonics with that huge deep lid that couldn't provide enough clearance to even use the lever at all, even with my Spurlock lid prop.

There were also a few pianos with pins that seemed a little too loose for the torque potential of the Levitan. I felt like it was almost too much power being applied to a pin that needed very little torque; with some of these pianos I reverted to the Faulk (or the Levitan classic, which I find myself using more and more of late) and was more comfortable. But this is the extent of my criticism of the tool, and since a working tech will always have a backup lever on hand, it's nothing to worry about.

I would say that from the day I began using the Levitan Professional, it wasn't all that difficult to become comfortable. I tuned four grands the first day, and yes, it was definitely much slower going than normal. I think the next 6 pianos each took an extra 20 minutes. Within a month I stopped thinking about it. Within six weeks my tuning time dropped significantly, becoming faster than ever before. Now, it almost feels strange to use my Faulk or the Classic, but I also enjoy switching up levers and think it's a good idea for ergonomic reasons to do so. Sometimes I will do the "cleanup" pass with a traditional lever, especially in the high treble, where I prefer to tune left-handed.

And although I did learn how to tune left-handed with the C lever, I haven't been doing that lately. I suppose I should, but since my pain is gone I don't feel compelled to.

It is imperative to remember that if you do tune with the Levitan Professional, you will need to also carry a traditional lever with you as well. There are many pianos where the Levitan Pro will not work on the lowest or highest pins. (There are also many where it will easily work on every pin.) Plus you will still need a traditional lever to turn glide bolts or for stringing work.

The Levitan "Classic" will work elegantly for these purposes, and his newest
"Utility" model is really perfect for its ultra light weight, compact size, and
price. Plus it has a very thin shaft, which makes it an excellent tool for stringing work.

I hope that many of you will give this tool a serious try. For me, it has been
beneficial to both my health and my tuning speed, the quality of my pin setting, and, of course, stability. Dan Levitan has created a wonderfully unique tuning lever - one that I predict will become widely recognized in the future as a brilliant invention within the piano technology trade.


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,671
L
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,671
Hi James,

Glad to hear you got your pain/repetitive stress issue under control and that you are able to work pain free! That's got to feel good.

For me, my issue didn't develop in the lever hand, but in the striking hand. The only thing that helps is resting it. I took two weeks off a few months back and the pain and numbness completely went away, but it returned once I started tuning again. So for me, it looks like I'll be leaving the trade early. I've thought of switching hands, but the thoughts of TWO injured hands don't appeal to me!


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,804
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Online Content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 36,804
My tech also uses Levitan tuning lever which is not surprising considering his name is
Dan Levitan.

Last edited by pianoloverus; 09/28/13 06:14 PM.
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 788
R
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
R
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 788
Thanks for the report, James. I may order one now...have been thinking about it. I bought one of the Reyburn impact levers for verticals this summer at the PTG convention. I wish I had done so earlier. It's been helpful. It was expensive, but worth the money.


Roy Peters, RPT
Cincinnati, Ohio
www.cincypiano.com
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,845
E
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
E
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 2,845
Originally Posted by Loren D
Hi James,

Glad to hear you got your pain/repetitive stress issue under control and that you are able to work pain free! That's got to feel good.

For me, my issue didn't develop in the lever hand, but in the striking hand. The only thing that helps is resting it. I took two weeks off a few months back and the pain and numbness completely went away, but it returned once I started tuning again. So for me, it looks like I'll be leaving the trade early.


Greetings,
I have had joint problems in my left hand, so for the last 20 years, I have been using a balsa wood striker. It has a rubber tip on it, and it is just basically a convex cylinder about 5 inches long, tapering down to about 3/8" at the bottom to hit one key at at time. It lets the impact go into the palm instead of the finger joints, so I can still play guitar and tune pianos. I used to have soreness in my hand every day, but no more.
REgards,

Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,671
L
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,671
Thanks, Ed. I've been using a striker for about a year myself now, but even though I'm no longer using the fingers to strike, the repetitive action of moving my arm up and down to strike the keys with the striker still is causing pain in my wrist, forearm, and sometimes upper arm. Enough of it in a day and the tip of the middle finger goes numb, so I've got some pretty good inflammation going.

If I had my career to do over again, I would 1) not work as hard and 2) alternate tuning hands frequently.


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
Do you stand or sit Loren?

Standing, you don't have to lift your arms for every repetitive motion...gravity helps instead.

Jim Ialeggio


Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
Jim,

Thanks for this C lever report. I've been thinking about both the Faulk lever and Dan's lever for a while(I use the Goss lever).

Pat Draine brought a C lever to a PTG meeting recently, and I liked the ease as well as what I perceived as the reduced need to flex the pin to convince the wire to move over the bearing surfaces. This apparent reduced need to flex the pin and convince the string over the felt(S&S tenor ski slope) doesn't really make sense to me, but on a short test drive, it did seem like the simple non-flexed movement of the pin did more of the rendering work that I'm used to with the Goss lever.

Any comments on the relative need to purposely flex the pin to render and settle things?

As well, I very interest to read of the possibility of using the C lever on uprights, as it requires one to reach further over the keyboard to get position on the lever. (I stand for uprights) Do you have a pic of this upright position?

Jim Ialeggio


Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Originally Posted by jim ialeggio
Jim,

Thanks for this C lever report. I've been thinking about both the Faulk lever and Dan's lever for a while(I use the Goss lever).

Pat Draine brought a C lever to a PTG meeting recently, and I liked the ease as well as what I perceived as the reduced need to flex the pin to convince the wire to move over the bearing surfaces. This apparent reduced need to flex the pin and convince the string over the felt(S&S tenor ski slope) doesn't really make sense to me, but on a short test drive, it did seem like the simple non-flexed movement of the pin did more of the rendering work that I'm used to with the Goss lever.

Any comments on the relative need to purposely flex the pin to render and settle things?

As well, I very interest to read of the possibility of using the C lever on uprights, as it requires one to reach further over the keyboard to get position on the lever. (I stand for uprights) Do you have a pic of this upright position?

Jim Ialeggio


Hey Jim,

That's the thing - I believe that the C-lever does somehow make rendering easier, even on acute angles of ski slope understring felt. It just feels like it does the work for you, whether you are dealing with a 250 inch lb. block or skislopes that feel like sandpaper, or a combination of both. And you can absolutely nudge and bend the pins a little bit, either while rotating the pin or not. See his website for some diagrams that show this clearly.

Whenever possible, unless the piano is new, I always vacuum understring felt and apply a little bit of Protek CLP prior to tuning which seems to help as well; I'm sure a lot of techs do this.

As far as positioning, check Dan's instructional video at http://vimeo.com/37869859. The first part is on use with grands, and the vertical section begins at the 18:18 mark. With verticals, you'll see that Dan recommends using the elbow as a pivot which didn't work for me. But everyone is different.

On verticals, I stand at an angle, almost facing the bass end of the piano (when I am holding the lever with my right hand), and I keep the lever near the 12 o'clock position as much as possible. So if anything, I feel like I'm closer to the pins with my tuning arm, and since I use a palm striker 100% of the time now, I never feel like I have to crouch down to hit the keys. (Nothing you can really do about short consoles, which are uncomfortable when the tuning pins are so low.) I've also experimented with sitting while tuning a few verticals as well, but there is way too much stress on my arm muscles to do that regularly.


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 970
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
Offline
Silver Subscriber
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 970
Quote
If I had my career to do over again, I would 1) not work as hard and 2) alternate tuning hands frequently.


You know I've been doing this for 18 years now (started late, I'm now 54 years old) and sometimes when I read how many pianos people tune in a week I'm astounded. 20-25 pianos in a week. I've never done that and never will. About 15 a week is my limit by choice. For one thing I'm not that ambitious and I found out early on that I can only do so much in one day - my body will give out. Also, I must give credit where credit is due. I'm thankful to God that I live in a house that is paid for and have no other debt. That is one thing that has enabled me to not have to work so hard.


"That Tuning Guy"
Scott Kerns
Lincoln, Nebraska
www.thattuningguy.com
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
that C lever seem a good thing for the ones who suffer from some injury, but just looking at it I cannot understand how I can use it as much in "stethoscope mode" as I do with a standard lever.

I also perceive the small springiness of my lever as an advantage for some springy motion I use. But certainly ultra rigid lever may be useful after some adaptation. The handle is visibly too thick on the ones I have seen.

I cannot see how one can be injuried by tuning. I had some trouble when using karate mode, but I do not do it anymore, only exceptionally.

As I play piano I know how to be in total release from the shoulders, back and arms.

The weigh of an arm allows to play at about mF without any effort, from +- half an inch height.

May be a warm up is better done before and some relax moves during the tuning (as done in Japan with reasons)

A key striker gives an excellent demonstration of the availeable power from the "free fall" of the shoulders and arm.

The same for the tuning arm, with unlocked anckle and shoulder, the posture is strange but the benefit of the arms weight useful.

Pushing on the right leg allow to have even more power, using the whole body.

Now I do not work in a shop on new pianos with extra tight tuning pins. Before fine tuning, I often noticed floor tuners flag-polling a max and warming the pin to ease a little the pinblock.


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,925
D
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
D
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 2,925
Where did you get the pic from? It's odd to see a piano with tuning pins and no strings.


"Imagine it in all its primatic colorings, its counterpart in our souls - our souls that are great pianos whose strings, of honey and of steel, the divisions of the rainbow set twanging, loosing on the air great novels of adventure!" - William Carlos Williams
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
New experimental model of "silent" piano (need to be tuned , hence the tuning pins)

only for deaf pianists (I promise there are some)


Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Originally Posted by Olek
that C lever seem a good thing for the ones who suffer from some injury, but just looking at it I cannot understand how I can use it as much in "stethoscope mode" as I do with a standard lever.

I also perceive the small springiness of my lever as an advantage for some springy motion I use. But certainly ultra rigid lever may be useful after some adaptation. The handle is visibly too thick on the ones I have seen.

I cannot see how one can be injuried by tuning. I had some trouble when using karate mode, but I do not do it anymore, only exceptionally.

As I play piano I know how to be in total release from the shoulders, back and arms.

The weigh of an arm allows to play at about mF without any effort, from +- half an inch height.

May be a warm up is better done before and some relax moves during the tuning (as done in Japan with reasons)

A key striker gives an excellent demonstration of the availeable power from the "free fall" of the shoulders and arm.

The same for the tuning arm, with unlocked anckle and shoulder, the posture is strange but the benefit of the arms weight useful.

Pushing on the right leg allow to have even more power, using the whole body.

Now I do not work in a shop on new pianos with extra tight tuning pins. Before fine tuning, I often noticed floor tuners flag-polling a max and warming the pin to ease a little the pinblock.


You should try it! I also want to stress that it's not a tool for "injured" techs - it's a tool that can be of incredible benefit to anyone willing to learn a new technique. I believe it creates an even better interface between technician and pin, and probably functions as a better "stethoscope" than a traditional lever does.

And yes, I do tune a fair amount of brand new pianos with very tight pins, so it has been a major relief. But that's just one of its advantages.


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Originally Posted by Dave B
Where did you get the pic from? It's odd to see a piano with tuning pins and no strings.


I was wondering if anyone was paying attention; good to see that someone is!

That's a 30s Sohmer Cupid grand that I bought and am reconditioning - it's getting a new stringing scale, and a new WNG action. The block is perfect as-is, as are the tuning pins. So I'm reusing the existing pins.

The board and bridges on this piano are in remarkable condition - very rare to find a NYC piano like this, with light-colored wood. Even the case is in exceptional shape. Was -125 to -150 cents when I purchased, never really played much based on the condition of the parts. I'm also 99% sure I'm the first tech that ever pulled the action.


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
O
9000 Post Club Member
Offline
9000 Post Club Member
O
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,230
Thank you for the witnessing James.

I think of that, looked closely at the videos, and I think I use too much very precise flagpole motion in the vertical plane to be at ease with that tool. Yes initially I work in the rotating plane, of the pin, this is very important and the basis to have control on the pin "twist" I allow, but I work a lot the pin under tension and need the other planes as well.

I would like to test it for verticals, however.

I listened to your records and liked the well build music.

On the tuning side, my result is somewhat different, and I wonder if I need more finesse with the lever or if you envisage the sound differently than me. I am unsure.

Last edited by Olek; 09/29/13 03:17 PM.

Professional of the profession.
Foo Foo specialist
I wish to add some kind and sensitive phrase but nothing comes to mind.!
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,671
L
2000 Post Club Member
Offline
2000 Post Club Member
L
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,671
Originally Posted by That Guy
Quote
If I had my career to do over again, I would 1) not work as hard and 2) alternate tuning hands frequently.


You know I've been doing this for 18 years now (started late, I'm now 54 years old) and sometimes when I read how many pianos people tune in a week I'm astounded. 20-25 pianos in a week. I've never done that and never will. About 15 a week is my limit by choice. For one thing I'm not that ambitious and I found out early on that I can only do so much in one day - my body will give out. Also, I must give credit where credit is due. I'm thankful to God that I live in a house that is paid for and have no other debt. That is one thing that has enabled me to not have to work so hard.


I'll be 54 in November, so we're pretty close to the same age. I've done 30+ in a week pretty regularly, especially when I was tuning the colleges. For about the past six months I've been limiting to 3 tunings/day 3 days a week, for a total of 9 a week, but even that's been difficult.

It's good that you limited yourself early on! Keep up the good work. smile


DiGiorgi Piano Service
http://www.digiorgipiano.com
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Originally Posted by Loren D
Thanks, Ed. I've been using a striker for about a year myself now, but even though I'm no longer using the fingers to strike, the repetitive action of moving my arm up and down to strike the keys with the striker still is causing pain in my wrist, forearm, and sometimes upper arm. Enough of it in a day and the tip of the middle finger goes numb, so I've got some pretty good inflammation going.

If I had my career to do over again, I would 1) not work as hard and 2) alternate tuning hands frequently.


I'm really sorry to hear this. Isn't there some kind of physical therapy that might help? Maybe a chiropractor or kinesiologist? Taping up your arm or hand before tuning? (Kind of like what boxers and football players do - I know a tech who tapes his arm and wrist before tuning.)


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Full Member
OP Offline
Full Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 440
Originally Posted by Olek
Thank you for the witnessing James.

I think of that, looked closely at the videos, and I think I use too much very precise flagpole motion in the vertical plane to be at ease with that tool. Yes initially I work in the rotating plane, of the pin, this is very important and the basis to have control on the pin "twist" I allow, but I work a lot the pin under tension and need the other planes as well.

I would like to test it for verticals, however.

I listened to your records and liked the well build music.

On the tuning side, my result is somewhat different, and I wonder if I need more finesse with the lever or if you envisage the sound differently than me. I am unsure.


Thanks for listening, Isaac.

Would be very interesting to hear your thoughts once you try the C-lever for yourself. (Minimum 25 pianos smile )


Keyboardist & Composer, Piano Technician
www.jamescarney.net
http://jamescarneypianotuning.wordpress.com/
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
500 Post Club Member
Offline
500 Post Club Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 944
Originally Posted by Mark R.
Originally Posted by Roy123
Originally Posted by Mark R.


On the C-lever, the hand exerts its force on the lever in the plane of the pinblock, resulting in purely rotational force (twist, torque) on the pin.


That's not entirely true. A sideways force is applied to the pin that is equal to the force applied to the handle of the lever. This statement assumes that the tuner is applying a unidirectional force to the lever, and not a twist. Given the lever's usage, that's pretty much a given. The longer the lever the less this force is, because for a given amount of torque, force is the reciprocal of the lever arm. The C lever is helpful in this regard because its lever arm is longer than most conventional levers.



I hear what you're saying. A very short lever would have to exert a very high sideways force to achieve the same torque.

But I think the point about the C-lever remains the same: it's not so much the size of this lateral force that matters, but the height (relative to the pinblock) at which it is applied.

Although the sideways force of which you speak, does exist, it is effective on the pin at the same height at which it is applied to the lever. Hence, with the C-lever, this sideways force is effectively applied to the pin within the pinblock, eliminating flagpoling. In fact, if the handle of the C-lever were even longer, so that the tuner could apply force at the level of the keys, the pin would flagpole in the opposite direction (because the sideways force is effectively applied below the pinblock). When pushing the lever left, to raise pitch, the pin would actually flagpole to the right. Conversely, if you operate the C-lever at the very top end of its handle, it would operate much like a conventional lever, and flagpole the pin left.

But by operating the C-lever in the middle of the handle, the force is applied at the height of the pinblock, without resulting in any flagpoling.

That's my best understanding of the vectors at play. (Open to correction, gladly.)


I took the liberty of moving this interesting discussion regarding the forces vectors involved in using the Levitan C Lever to this thread, where it can effectively be searched...

The discussion was taking place here: tuning stability

Jim Ialeggio

Last edited by jim ialeggio; 11/12/13 11:10 AM.

Jim Ialeggio
www.grandpianosolutions.com
advanced soundboard and action redesigns
978 425-9026
Shirley Center, MA
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Piano World, platuser 

Link Copied to Clipboard
What's Hot!!
Piano World Has Been Sold!
--------------------
Forums RULES, Terms of Service & HELP
(updated 06/06/2022)
---------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
(ad)
(ad)
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Recommended Songs for Beginners
by FreddyM - 04/16/24 03:20 PM
New DP for a 10 year old
by peelaaa - 04/16/24 02:47 PM
Estonia 1990
by Iberia - 04/16/24 11:01 AM
Very Cheap Piano?
by Tweedpipe - 04/16/24 10:13 AM
Practical Meaning of SMP
by rneedle - 04/16/24 09:57 AM
Forum Statistics
Forums43
Topics223,392
Posts3,349,302
Members111,634
Most Online15,252
Mar 21st, 2010

Our Piano Related Classified Ads
| Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations |

Advertise on Piano World
| Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map


Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All Rights Reserved.
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community.