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Hi all - The Chickering grand I'm going to be restringing has a hitchpin for each treble string. This is the style of loop that it originally had:

[img:center]http://[/img]

While on the one had I like the idea of duplicating the style that it came with, I'm considering using this double loop style:

[img:center]http://[/img]

I've seen this type of loop done on pianos before, and am just wondering if there's any advantage to using it. Any thoughts? Thanks, Chuck Behm

Hi Chuck, I have no real idea on that, I reproduce what I find.

I have read some ideas about more liberty of the wire with the German loop, for wound strings. ???

What I do is bend the small protuberant part in a "S" shape (by turning it around my hook before cutting) It allow to cut the becket precisely but mostly it make a small strong spring that leave the coils well tight (small punchings on the plate are necessary)

Noticed that on Boesendorfer's

Thanks for the reply, Isaac - When I put the winding on the string, I'll be stopping at a point where the "protuberant part" as you call it does not lie quite flat against the plate when the loop is put on the hitchpin until tension is applied to the string, forcing the coil to tighten up slightly. (I'll be using the small red punchings available for this purpose to keep from scratching the plate.)

I'm not sure I understand the "S" shape you're bending the string in, and its advantage. Chuck

I will look for a picture. I first thought it was just visual, but when the tension is applied the becket is stable,does not move as when it is laid usually.

I like the idea of the strong spring added there.

WHen I make the coils, the remaining wire is bend tight around the hook (passing above the coils, and cut in the rounded part, that make the "s" shape (not really a S but a little) it apply then at then right side near the eyelet on the cloth.

Nevertheless I tap the coils with a brass rod to be sure they are tight, but the move when making the S have tightened them yet


here it is , dismounted (not so clear as when it is mounted) :
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/vie...4671017472&psc=S#5892696053221035122

your first eyelet is inverted seem to me. ( in the end no that is how they are when done with pliers)

Olek, What your describing is very interesting but I do not understand and the link isn't opening.

sorry

I think Isaac is referring to bending the tang up toward the loop, to lessen the effect of it unwinding as tension is applied.

These English loops used to be the bane of my existence; the old Shout House K&C's had them, and they were double-looped, as in your second photo, Chuck.

I may be wrong, but I think the purpose of the double loop is to lessen the stress on the windings and tang.

BDB helped me when I was doing that by showing me his simple, home-made, English loop winder.

the coils are more tight, as it can be seen they twist more than usual English loop when they are dismounted.

Look into Ron Overs procedure for making the German Double Loop. His has an extra bend so that the wire coming off the hitch pin is centered. I'd post a photo but there doesn't seem to be an easy way.

The advantage to a double loop is that it doesn't cinch tightly around the hitch pin (fairly certain anyway).

Unless I do not understand In my experience they do tighten around the pin, and are harder pull as the single loop

You could try the Photo Uploader

Hi Jon - I haven't seen Ron's procedure, but I'm picturing a loop like this:

[img:center]http://[/img]

Is that what you're talking about? Chuck

In my experience, I found that the string always biased toward the 'through' side of the loop (as opposed to the 'tang' side, for lack of a better way to express it), and never truly centered, regardless of how I bent it.

YMMV...

I found I got the most stability when I set the loops as depicted in Chuck's second photo in his OP, but with the tang turned up as in Isaac's photo.

Once again, YMMV...

It is in the pianotech archives with his description.

Loops in a German piano. The originals appear to have been longer.

Chuck, you make the best looking loops but one important question is which type produces the longest sustain.

While I know this is a quick demonstration photo, but it is important that the tail of the windings should bend back up towards the loop(s) for stability. In this photo, it bends away from the loops.

Jim - I believe you're correct. When the string is pulled up to tension, the 'through' side you're talking about is going to pretty much straighten out, as it's the side coming directly off the hitchpin. Chuck

Not to be pedantic but this on also should have the tail bent upwards (as it appears on the photo) to finish up close to the loop(s)

Looking at those German loops Ian posted, it confuses me why an asymmetrical loop would be at all desirable. I would have though the centered loop Chuck posted would be superior. It anchors to the hitch pin in a direct line. I've tied lots of knots in ropes on sailing boats and tying down loads on trailers and one thing you learn is that asymmetrical knots will eventually self-center, which results in lost tension. They tend towards straight lines of force and symmetry. If they don't, they will slip or try to rotate what they are hitched to. Now, I understand that piano wire acts more like a solid than a rope due to its enormous stiffness, but I would have thought the "stretching in" process would take longer for the asymmetrical loops than for the one Chuck posted. It looks to me like the only advantage of the German loop would be that it's easier and faster to tie. Maybe nothing I mention matters in the real piano world. The German loops are quite attractive looking.

Oh dear, Another one. It just looks out of context to see the tail on the bottom one pointing the wrong way. The second one up is better and it finishes up actually on the punching and not on the paint of the plate like the others. I am used to seeing slightly longer tails on every single strung piano I have ever seen. To have the tails sticking out at rightangles looks good but the tails still touch the plate. It defys the purpose of the punching. Again, I have never seen this on factory stringing. It is strange to look at it pointing that way.

If we're going to copy factory, let's do precisely as they do. It really really is for stability reasons to have the tail pointing toward the loop, not away. There is a very good reason for it.