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Marty,

At least for my benefit, because I really don't know, when did sharps and flats (e.g. D sharp and E flat) coalesce before the present keyboard appeared?

Hi Ian,

The premise of the circle of fifths, and music theory, is the codification of what had developed from chants in use during the eighth century. As you are well aware, the tablature was totally different and a sharp or flat didn't even exist.

To answer your question, I'll have to do some digging through reference materials to find the earliest reference of when accidentals appeared in notation. I'll let you know.

Currently I'm in Chicago and I will need to have access to my library to do a little research. My expertise is more in the early Baroque, rather than the pre- and renaissance eras.

What I meant was that just about every time someone claims to have tuned a "perfect" unequal temperament, there are bad unisons and octaves, and yet somehow I am supposed to come to some conclusion about the temperament from that. Well, the conclusion that I have come to is that most people who claim to tune to some unequal temperament do not tune worth a sou, let alone tune to any temperament.

If you want to sell me on the advantages of one temperament versus another, first show me that you can tune well enough that talking to you about temperament makes sense at all.

If you want to sell me on the advantages of one temperament versus another, first show me that you can hear well enough that talking to you about temperament makes sense at all.

I have tried a number of well temperaments, both on our harpsichord and on one of our pianos. And yes, I did play on them for some time before making up my mind. I did not like the results.

So, while "establishment" appears to be quite a derogatory term in your vocabulary, for my part, I am quite happy to practise "establishment tuning" at this stage of my tuning career. For an autodidact, there is lots to learn from the establishment.

That being said, I fully plan to put my one piano back into a WT. I'm not opposed to them in principle. I just take exception to being called loony-toony for putting an ET (or my best shot at it) on a harpsichord.

Don't quite know what to make of this latest donnybrook. First the piano, and now the harpsichord. Seems like nothing will escape the foray.

The William Dowd Concert French Double was prepped in Equal Temperament countless times for solo, chamber and orchestral performances. For years. No complaints whatsoever. Not from the Maestro who, himself, both conducted and played all the Brandenburg concertos in one stellar performance. Not from numerous guest harpsichordists who always seemed delighted for the piano tech to tune for rehearsals and performances in their stead. Not from the orchestra. Not from entertainment reviews. Standing ovation speaks for itself.

The only complaints received are here. After the fact. From those who heard not.

Another well said, Bob.

But, standing ovation mean that the audience have enough to be sitting, mostly !!!

Thanks, Jim

LOL! Thanks, Isaac.

I can tune the paino any way the customers wants. If you want 3 chords to sound pretty as all get out, and the rest sound like crap. I can do that. Just tell me what key you want to play in

Gary, your ignorance on the subject of temperaments other than ET is showing again...

Ron Koval

The word check in this context means to merely see if you got it right. It shouldn't entail retuning any of the piano.
The order that you do things in depends on the method that you use. Some use a temperament strip and tune all the centre strings of each unison and then tune all the outside strings with the strip out. Others tune each unison of each note as they go so the tune the notes, then the octaves and then the unisons.

If you check thoroughly as you go there should be no need to change anything since the every note on the piano is interdependent on the rest, as you so rightly say.

One important thing to look out for, on the subject of checking, there is a tendency in new tuners and some who should know better, to tune the interval or octave with a much lighter touch that they use to tune the unison with the result that the whole unison finishes up flat. They are beating up their own tunings. It is well to check that when a whole unison is tuned that it is still in tune with the rest of the piano. This happens whether you go by completing each unison as you go or if you use a strip.

The best cure for this is to learn to set a string and pin so that it stays in tune under all circumstances. Tuners for years have talked about setting the pin and completely ignoring setting the string along its entire length. You can set a pin really well but if there slack in the length of wire between the pin and the speaking length. Tuners were taught to beat on pianos mainly as a test that all the action parts were sound. Pounding is not necessary. I let the player do all my test blows. What I am saying is, don't become dependent on beating the strings into tune, there'll always be some who can hit those notes with more practiced concentrated power than almost any tuner.

So, whichever method you use, check as you go.

"tune the string on all its lenght"

As if no bearing points exists (which is more easily said than done).

A blow is useful to be sure but not always.

Somewhere in one of these divided threads about ET I mentioned that it's very likely ET got its foothold in 1853 when three of the great manufacturers were founded It makes sense when designing a new scale to have an even progression at least in the design.

Here's a bit more living history....
Almost 50 years ago I tuned many ancient Blüthners and Bosendorfers that had an amazing depth of tone and resonance. They had been on the tuning rounds for generations. The smaller (5-6 foot) pianos in particular were resonant in a way we don't hear today. I do know that in the early days of recording, they had to use uprights with the hammers shaved down because the resonance would make the needle jump in the soft wax they used in those days.

The resonance was such that the major 3rds and major 6ths really drew attention to themselves. I had been taught on joining the company to use minimal stretch on the treble and to narrow the scale and tenor octaves. The depth of tone was such that sharpness in the bass was not an issue, the bass still sounded low if anything, even though it was measurably sharp. Modern commercial piano tone will not accept this, the bass sounds sharp even when it is inordinately stretched. of course iH was known in those days.

I found that narrowing the middle slowed down these intervals in a way that they no longer called attention to themselves in the musical texture.

Though I had studied UT's before then because there were harpsichords on my rounds but it was not an option because there would be some intervals that we're really fast and draw even more attention to themselves. These were commercial tunings

Just an idea. These pianos have been long since rebuilt. I came across one Blüthner that the customer was unhappy with because all the hammers had been replaced and it had lost it's resonance and depth. I did the tone regulation techniques taught to me from those days and the depth and resonance came back. The customer was happy but I knew there was more resonance in that piano but the new hammers were not allowing it to flower. More depth came back as I continued to tune and service it over the years.

Modern concert pianos here are selected for their depth of tone when new which develops over time and appropriate servicing. The resonance I remember was not as pronounced in the larger pianos but we can still narrow the tenor octaves and reduce the speed of all the 3rds and 6ths without making it sound sharp or compromising the fifths too much.

I posit that it is over stretching and poor tone quality that leads people away from ET as is is commonly practiced today.

I remember working for a M&H dealer in the 70's. My first job in the 'States. The pianos needed a lot of work but great depth of tone and brilliance could still be had from them. Imagine my dismay when I went to a convention and all the pianos on the M&H stand had been brightened so much as to destroy any depth they had.

I listen to harpsichord music almost entirely for about 25 days of early music festivals dotted about the year and delight in the way a harpsichord tone quality can accept rapid beating thirds and gradually get more in tune as the music resolves into the home keys or mother keys as one of my jazz friends would have it.

All my business today is ET. That's just the way it is. Left to my own devices I will use some of UT's subtleties in tunings that I'm solely responsible for but I share a lot of tuning duties with other tuners simply for convenience of scheduling so on those pianos I am bound by convention and convenience. (so are the pianos). They can be doing duty with one style one day and the opposite end of the style spectrum the next. It has to be one size fits all establisent tuning. The advantage of this is that all the staff tuners can really refine our practical experience of ET because on every tuning, the basics are already solidly in place. We get the satisfaction of doing one thing really really well and making life easy for each other and any soul who wants to play our pianos in the meantime. Not many tuners get to experience teamwork like this. We essentially tune for each other. I feel priveliged to be part of and surounded by such expertise.

I'm just trying to find a middle ground here and some understanding of how this situation came about. There's really no need for this acrimony. Share the road with other drivers. We're all going different places.

After you tune your temperment of choice, let me hear all 12 chords(not just the "pretty ones".) Seriously, if there is a better temperment that makes all the keys sound awesome, I am open to change!

Interesting historical description I also find the tone of pianos was so different some time ago.

The common mistake I see on Bluthner is not buying appropriate hammers, the ones they have today are good, while certainly more on the power side than they where.

I believe part of the tone was lost with modern steel quality, and possibly recycling, hence beginning of the 60-70's years.

When Poehlmann was stopped too.

Then take in account that the basses tend to get warmer on older panels, also.

Some years ago I changed the depth on a new Blüthnere 9' to 10mm (the old standard) for an artist. The improvement in tone (to me)was remarkable. A year or so later I had occasion to do some extensive tone regulation on it and the old Blüthner sound as
I remembered it emerged. The piano got sold immediately after so I didn't get to experience that sound in a large hall.

I also had a similar experience with a 1980's 6'3 in a private home and a modern 6.3 in a private club here.

It seems that age and use do have an influence. I have more success with pianos that have been allowed to develop a crisp attack. The demands of today's playing requires a clean starting transient.

I see this come up now and again. I wonder what the evidence for this is.