Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
(ad) Yamaha CP4 Rebate
Yamaha CP4 Rebate
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
94 registered (Anita Potter, Bellicapelli, 36251, anamnesis, 20 invisible), 1064 Guests and 8 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2
Topic Options
#2170284 - 10/22/13 08:57 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5839
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies and Symphonic Dances are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)? And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?

And Rachmaninov's 'The Bells' is much better than Liszt's Christus?

Need I say more?

Or am I just 'confused', because Brendel (and you) says so? wink
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
Ad 800 (Pearl River)
Pearl River World's Best Selling Piano
#2170289 - 10/22/13 09:07 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Valencia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 291
Happy Birthday to Liszt! smile Hopefully one day I'll be able to play one of his pieces.

For now, here is Valentina playing Totentanz, which seems a perfect piece for honouring his 202 birthday:


Top
#2170290 - 10/22/13 09:08 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6326
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are

sentimental tripe.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Need I say more?


Say less.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

Top
#2170293 - 10/22/13 09:15 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Damon]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5839
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are

sentimental tripe.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Need I say more?


Say less.

No, I'll say more.

Rachmaninov's chamber music (especially his cello sonata) is far better than any of Liszt's.
And his songs are far better than any of Liszt's.

I think that just about covers everything....

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

Top
#2170310 - 10/22/13 09:51 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8102
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)? And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?

I wouldn't go so far as "immeasurably greater," but it's true that Liszt never wrote an orchestral work as great as Rachmaninoff's 2nd Symphony, and his concertos cannot compare with Rach's 2nd and 3rd.

Now let's see Jason argue the superiority of the vapid Liszt 1st concerto over the Rach 3rd.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2170321 - 10/22/13 10:11 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8994
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

Now let's see Jason argue the superiority of the vapid Liszt 1st concerto over the Rach 3rd.

But I thought it was the other was around.

The Liszt Eb is a marvelously inventive work, nothing like it had ever been written before, totally original and miraculously spontaneous.

That alone would put it above Rachmaninov 3, which is none of those.

You're not going to win this, Poly. wink
_________________________
Jason

Top
#2170322 - 10/22/13 10:15 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8102
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
The Liszt Eb is a marvelously inventive work, nothing like it had ever been written before, totally original and miraculously spontaneous.

That alone would put it above Rachmaninov 3, which is none of those.

It is definitely inventive and spontaneous. The Liszt is mostly an empty technical display.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2170366 - 10/23/13 12:20 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 611
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

However, what I will say is that Chopin surpassed them both.



shocked

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)?


shocked

Originally Posted By: bennevis
And Rachmaninov's 'The Bells' is much better than Liszt's Christus?


shocked shocked shocked WHAT. I'd take Christus based on the Stabat Mater Dolorosa alone.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?


His 2nd and 3rd PC's, yes (3rd is one of my favourite pieces of music, and I love the 2nd although I prefer Liszt's 2nd). For me, Totentanz > Paganini. I like Rachmaninoff's 1st and 4th about as much as I like Liszt's lesser pieces for p&o: De Profundis, Malediction, PC 3, and less than PC #1.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Rachmaninov's chamber music (especially his cello sonata) is far better than any of Liszt's.


True.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
And his songs are far better than any of Liszt's.


shocked

For me:

Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Liszt was a far greater innovator. Liszt wins grin

Of course, this is all meaningless and subjective.

I don't mean to denigrate Rachmaninoff: indeed, he is one of my favourite composers. The 3rd PC and the Isle of the Dead are two of my favourite works in their respective genres.




Edited by pianojosh23 (10/23/13 12:28 AM)

Top
#2170371 - 10/23/13 12:30 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8102
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Your solo piano rating for Liszt is way too high (you can't just base it on one piece), and your piano/orchestra rating for Rach is way too low. And Rach wins for orchestra.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2170378 - 10/23/13 12:38 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4565
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...
_________________________

"Doing things changes things. Not doing things leaves things exactly as they were."

Top
#2170381 - 10/23/13 12:41 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 611
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Your solo piano rating for Liszt is way too high (you can't just base it on one piece), and your piano/orchestra rating for Rach is way too low. And Rach wins for orchestra.


You think I'm basing it on just one piece? I do think there is nothing Rachmaninoff wrote for the piano that is as good as the Sonata, but I also put Liszt's Annees, Harmonies Poetiques, and Etudes ahead of Rach's Preludes and Etudes. I would take Liszt's Weinen Klagen variations over the Corelli's AND the Chopin. Also, there is Liszt's incredible work as an arranger and the fact that he just wrote more good music for the instrument...his achievement is far broader and his music has more versatility.

As for orchestra, I wouldn't put Rach 2 above Liszt's Faust, nor would I put Rach 1 or 3 ahead of the Dante. I see the Isle of the Dead as being as good as the best of Liszt's tone poems -if not better- but Liszt just wrote far more good music. You wouldn't put The Rock ahead of Tasso, Orpheus, Les Preludes, Huns, Heroide Funebre, midnight procession, etc would you?

As for piano and orchestra, I do think Rachmaninoff's achievements are more significant and deserve the nod by the margin I suggested, but Liszt's works are great for what they strive to be. They are very inventive, beautiful, and well constructed within their framework.

Again, though: all I am writing can only really be put down to what I like better. Heaps of people see it the opposite to me, and I am no more right than them.

Top
#2170382 - 10/23/13 12:41 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4565
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow
You cannot compare them, they are too different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just STOP!
_________________________

"Doing things changes things. Not doing things leaves things exactly as they were."

Top
#2170387 - 10/23/13 12:46 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 611
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
You cannot compare them, they are too different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There's that, too. Really all I have said is that I prefer Liszt and his style better, and I am biased. grin

Top
#2170391 - 10/23/13 12:55 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 611
Anyway back to the point of the thread: Happy birthday Liszt, the composer who has given me more than any other.

Top
#2170392 - 10/23/13 12:55 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4565
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow
Haha, I didn't just mean you.. I meant the whole lot of them!!!

I love both, but of course Rachmaninov is my one and only. But, I have played tons of Liszt, so you cannot judge me (and yes, including the sonata).
_________________________

"Doing things changes things. Not doing things leaves things exactly as they were."

Top
#2170395 - 10/23/13 01:06 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8102
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2170396 - 10/23/13 01:09 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: pianojosh23]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8102
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
As for orchestra, I wouldn't put Rach 2 above Liszt's Faust, nor would I put Rach 1 or 3 ahead of the Dante.

Huh? I was separating concertos and orchestral works - so the Rach Opus 27 goes up against the Faust, and wins by a large margin. Opus 30 goes up against either Liszt concerto, and there is no contest there either.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2170401 - 10/23/13 01:34 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4565
Loc: not somewhere over the rainbow
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.


Yeah, maybe, whatever... I still like the 1st sonata more than anything. But I do think the b minor is a complete genius.
_________________________

"Doing things changes things. Not doing things leaves things exactly as they were."

Top
#2170402 - 10/23/13 01:37 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]
Polyphonist Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 8102
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.


Yeah, maybe, whatever... I still like the 1st sonata more than anything. But I do think the b minor is a complete genius.

At least we have that straight. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
Page 2 of 2 < 1 2

Moderator:  Brendan, Kreisler 
What's Hot!!
The February 2015 Issue of our Free Piano News Newsletter is out now! FREE Piano Newsletter
--------------------
The best thing I've learned on Piano World....
-------------------
Posting Pictures on the Forums
-------------------
Forums Rules & Help
-------------------
ADVERTISE
on Piano World

The world's most popular piano web site.
-------------------
PIANO BOOKS
(ad) Jazz Piano Online
Jazz Piano Online Lessons
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Need help to identify 41 key piano (Herrburger Brooks)
by Paulmk5
03/03/15 06:01 AM
Glenn Gould on television - Music in the U.S.S.R.
by pianoman9
03/03/15 05:35 AM
What is the key of your life?
by piano_friend
03/03/15 03:20 AM
the Steinway at the Vanderbilt Mansion
by Michael Sayers
03/03/15 03:05 AM
exercises and compositions for children
by Michael Sayers
03/03/15 02:19 AM
Forum Stats
78,377 Registered Members
43 Forums
162,027 Topics
2,379,025 Posts

Most users ever online: 15,252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2015 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission