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#2160760 - 10/02/13 07:52 AM Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Stockholms lšn, Sverige
Hi Everyone,

I am wondering if this date coming up has any special significance for anyone here or if it is just another date on the calendar.

Last year I wrote a piano composition for Liszt to celebrate his birthday and which conveyed my impression of his fatherly, compassionate and otherworldly nature. I'm not sure if I'll do it again this year or not - or perhaps just notate a 2nd version of last year's composition for Liszt with added material and development.

Composition requires confidence in what is doing, or doing it in spite of a lack of confidence, and there are ebbs and flows of this state of mind.


M.

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#2160803 - 10/02/13 10:47 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Derek Hartwell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 219
Loc: United Kingdom
Originally Posted By: Michael Sayers
Hi Everyone,

I am wondering if this date coming up has any special significance for anyone here or if it is just another date on the calendar.

Last year I wrote a piano composition for Liszt to celebrate his birthday and which conveyed my impression of his fatherly, compassionate and otherworldly nature. I'm not sure if I'll do it again this year or not - or perhaps just notate a 2nd version of last year's composition for Liszt with added material and development.

Composition requires confidence in what is doing, or doing it in spite of a lack of confidence, and there are ebbs and flows of this state of mind.


M.

It IS a significant date. Liszt is one of my favourite composers and as a member of the Liszt Society I shall be attending the Liszt Society Annual Day in London on 9th November when the Liszt Society Piano Prize will be awarded after competition. Details of this and other activities/events together with news and publications on the website:
www.lisztsoc.org.uk
rk
_________________________
Music Teacher (Piano/Theory/Musicianship)

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#2161107 - 10/03/13 08:48 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Derek Hartwell]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Stockholms lšn, Sverige
Hi Derek,

I don't have any favourite composers but Liszt's music does seem to be closest to my heart in terms of both my feeling for life and my inner sense of being.

I just found this interesting recording by pianist David Bradshaw of Liszt's La Leggierezza with Leschetizky's cadenza ending. I think it might be from a live performance in 1976:



There also is this recording on youtube with him in Liszt's two-piano version of the 2nd Hungarian Rhapsody:



And for a little bit more Lisztian enthusiasm here is a link from another post which is of Liszt's music being played on his 1873 Steingraeber. This is a recording I heard for the first time this morning. In it Andrea Bonatta gets almost as high a quality tone as Nyiregyhazi does in En Reve and Abschied on the Desmar LP but Nyiregyhazi did not need a piano from the 1800s to get that kind of sound. Keith Kerman posted that this piano was owned by Cosima and still is in the family which I assume means that it is in Bayreuth:




M.

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#2161180 - 10/03/13 12:11 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Derek Hartwell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 219
Loc: United Kingdom
Thanks, Michael, for posting those recordings which are very interesting.
Although the piano playing is beyond any criticism from me, I do have to say how I dislike the piano SOUND on the first of the three 'La Leggierezza': the 'empty hall' sound! I wonder if that has been added digitally by the recording engineers ?
Best wishes.
rk
_________________________
Music Teacher (Piano/Theory/Musicianship)

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#2161195 - 10/03/13 12:42 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Derek Hartwell]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Stockholms lšn, Sverige
Originally Posted By: Derek Hartwell
Thanks, Michael, for posting those recordings which are very interesting.
Although the piano playing is beyond any criticism from me, I do have to say how I dislike the piano SOUND on the first of the three 'La Leggierezza': the 'empty hall' sound! I wonder if that has been added digitally by the recording engineers ?
Best wishes.
rk

Hi Derek,

You have good ears! I think you may be right regarding the David Bradshaw La Leggierezza recording. The hall sound, if that is what is on the recording, seems colourless. I kept thinking to myself, "that is a terrible sounding hall"!


M.

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#2161582 - 10/04/13 05:39 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Derek Hartwell Offline
Full Member

Registered: 07/03/09
Posts: 219
Loc: United Kingdom
Thanks for the com(pli)ment, Michael!
However, I don't have absolute pitch. frown
Nevertheless, the sound very much reminds me of the characteristic sound of recordings on the now defunct 'Nimbus' label. It was, I believe, deliberately engineered and I dislike it.
Best wishes.
rk
_________________________
Music Teacher (Piano/Theory/Musicianship)

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#2164886 - 10/11/13 01:33 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
HerrLiszt Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 07/11/07
Posts: 13
Loc: Maryland
I celebrated the year of the maestro's 200th birthday listening to all 99 of Leslie Howard's disks. Since I commute an hour each way to work, this was an enjoyable way to pay honor on his anniversary. Truly amazing the depth and breadth of his collection.


Edited by HerrLiszt (10/11/13 01:34 PM)

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#2164921 - 10/11/13 03:17 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: HerrLiszt]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Stockholms lšn, Sverige
Originally Posted By: HerrLiszt
I celebrated the year of the maestro's 200th birthday listening to all 99 of Leslie Howard's disks. Since I commute an hour each way to work, this was an enjoyable way to pay honor on his anniversary. Truly amazing the depth and breadth of his collection.

That is a lot of lis(z)tening! The only other comparable project with Liszt's piano music I know of was Gunnar Johansen's, and of course Liszt piano works have been discovered since then which Leslie Howard was able to record.

I am glad we are getting a good warm up to Liszt's birthday.

Pianist Ivan Davis for some reason doesn't seem very well known but I personally feel that his debut recording - all Liszt - has many interesting things:



And also on youtube is this recording of him as piano soloist with Eugene Ormandy conducting in Liszt's Fantasia on Hungarian Folk Melodies:




M.

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#2164998 - 10/11/13 06:51 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
The Hound Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 124
Seems a good place to ask this: has anyone seen the film "Song Without End"? I've been watching a couple of old Hollywood composer biopics - Song Of Love and A Song To Remember (though biopic is putting it a bit loosely with the latter). Liszt pops up in both of those to lend a friendly hand to Schumann and Chopin. But Song Without End focuses on him, of course, and I thought I'd give it a shot next (and it seems an appropriate point to watch it).

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#2165135 - 10/12/13 02:51 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: The Hound]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Stockholms lšn, Sverige
Originally Posted By: The Hound
Seems a good place to ask this: has anyone seen the film "Song Without End"? I've been watching a couple of old Hollywood composer biopics - Song Of Love and A Song To Remember (though biopic is putting it a bit loosely with the latter). Liszt pops up in both of those to lend a friendly hand to Schumann and Chopin. But Song Without End focuses on him, of course, and I thought I'd give it a shot next (and it seems an appropriate point to watch it).

I've watched Song Without End more than once and highly recommend it. I am Liszt obsessed though and a bit biased!


M.

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#2165970 - 10/14/13 09:38 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Stockholms lšn, Sverige
I just today noticed that the version of the Dante Symphony Liszt originally intended which has an artwork slideshow of scenes from the Dante's Divine Comedy, and also the vocal recitativo, is online at youtube. I don't want to post the entire series of videos but here is one of the clips to give some idea of it:



The remainder and various other performances of the Dante Symphony, including one with two pianos, and also a performance of the Hungarian Fantasy (Fantasia on Hungarian Folk Melodies), are here at the same channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/bdom001/videos

Just a little more than one week to go until Liszt's birthday!


M.

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#2166012 - 10/14/13 11:13 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
The Hound Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/17/11
Posts: 124
Originally Posted By: Michael Sayers
Originally Posted By: The Hound
Seems a good place to ask this: has anyone seen the film "Song Without End"? I've been watching a couple of old Hollywood composer biopics - Song Of Love and A Song To Remember (though biopic is putting it a bit loosely with the latter). Liszt pops up in both of those to lend a friendly hand to Schumann and Chopin. But Song Without End focuses on him, of course, and I thought I'd give it a shot next (and it seems an appropriate point to watch it).

I've watched Song Without End more than once and highly recommend it. I am Liszt obsessed though and a bit biased!


M.


Michael, how would you rate its accuracy? I assume some liberties will have been taken like with all biopics, but is it largely true to life, or have they basically made a new story, starring Franz Liszt?

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#2166158 - 10/14/13 03:26 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: The Hound]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Stockholms lšn, Sverige
Originally Posted By: The Hound
Michael, how would you rate its accuracy? I assume some liberties will have been taken like with all biopics, but is it largely true to life, or have they basically made a new story, starring Franz Liszt?

I think maybe it fictionalizes some things such details in the scene for the Kiev charity concert in 1847 where Carolyne zu Sayn-Wittgenstein first heard Liszt perform - but it seems to do this as embellishment that doesn't contradict the known facts. I'm definitely not a Liszt expert - to be a Liszt expert one has to know a lot! - but I've read what I can here and there over the years. What I mainly focus on is the music and the example he set for other musicians through performing for charity and selflessly helping out other composers and pianists. One would have to look very hard in his letters to find any sentence where he admires his own skills and abilities - I haven't read anything like that from him.


M.

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#2169838 - 10/22/13 12:52 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Michael Sayers Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/15/13
Posts: 1027
Loc: Stockholms lšn, Sverige
Happy birthday Liszt!


M.

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#2169840 - 10/22/13 12:56 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Happy 202nd Birthday! laugh
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2169861 - 10/22/13 02:13 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
ChopinAddict Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/29/09
Posts: 6098
Loc: Land of the never-ending music
Happy Birthday!
_________________________



Music is my best friend.


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#2169906 - 10/22/13 07:40 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: ChopinAddict]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: ChopinAddict
Happy Birthday!

You're a Chopin Addict. You're supposed to be Liszt's mortal enemy. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2169971 - 10/22/13 10:31 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6114
Loc: St. Louis area
It seems strange to wish a happy birthday to someone who is deceased, but for my favorite composer, Happy Birthday. There should be an annual e-cital for his works on this date. whistle
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2169977 - 10/22/13 10:36 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8858
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Happy Birthday Franz Liszt, a composer honoured to be in my top five!

I remember reading an article by Alfred Brendel some years back wherein he compared Liszt's genius with Rachmaninov's 'elevated conversation', a view I endorse. That ought to rile a few members, but hey, take it up with Brendel, certainly nobody's fool. wink
_________________________
Jason

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#2169978 - 10/22/13 10:43 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5028
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Happy Birthday Franz Liszt, a composer honoured to be in my top five!

I remember reading an article by Alfred Brendel some years back wherein he compared Liszt's genius with Rachmaninov's 'elevated conversation', a view I endorse. That ought to rile a few members, but hey, take it up with Brendel, certainly nobody's fool. wink


"You cannot be serious!' (as Johnny would say) - apropos of Brendel's "Does classical music have to be entirely serious?" grin

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#2169988 - 10/22/13 11:11 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 408
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Ah, Liszt - you've always been my favorite. You were a true Shakespeare of musical storytelling. I adore the brilliantly intense narratives with perfectly timed wink & nudge to remind us it's only make-believe. Your damn-the-torpedoes bombast - hey, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. And for sharing from the depths of your own sorrow I present many thanks for that gentle caution not to dwell on darkness.

Happy Birthday memories to the man and his music.
_________________________

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#2169994 - 10/22/13 11:20 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
sophial Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 3460
Loc: US
Happy Birthday, dear Franz Liszt-- quite possibly the greatest pianist who ever lived, virtuoso and consummate musician, composer, innovator, conductor, transcriber, generous colleague, teacher for the ages, and humanitarian. The word "genius" is tossed around easily, but Liszt truly was one. Thank you for so many sublime musical moments.

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#2170010 - 10/22/13 11:44 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Auntie Lynn Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/04
Posts: 1105
Loc: San Francisco, CA
Still the best - nobody else even comes close...

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#2170014 - 10/22/13 11:51 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Happy Birthday Franz Liszt, a composer honoured to be in my top five!

Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Brahms, and Chopin. No Liszt.

He is in my top ten though.
The sonata is among the greatest piano works of the Romantic era - some would say THE greatest, although I disagree.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170017 - 10/22/13 11:53 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
I remember reading an article by Alfred Brendel some years back wherein he compared Liszt's genius with Rachmaninov's 'elevated conversation', a view I endorse. That ought to rile a few members, but hey, take it up with Brendel, certainly nobody's fool. wink

Yes, he is. Brendel doesn't understand music. This much should be obvious to whoever has heard him play late Beethoven, in which he supposedly "specializes." As for his view of Rachmaninoff, it is hogwash.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170022 - 10/22/13 12:05 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 408
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Happy Birthday Franz Liszt, a composer honoured to be in my top five!

Beethoven, Bach, Mozart, Brahms, and Chopin. No Liszt.

He is in my top ten though.
The sonata is among the greatest piano works of the Romantic era - some would say THE greatest, although I disagree.


Why are you even crashing the Liszt birthday party?

I'm checking the punchbowl.
_________________________

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#2170026 - 10/22/13 12:09 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
I'm not crashing the party. To prove it, I will post this work, one of my favorite Liszt miniatures. It is a stroke of absolute genius.

_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170039 - 10/22/13 12:28 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 408
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
That's better!

Please understand, if it were "Polyphonist's birthday celebration" and someone was all up here talking 'meh...' about you, I would fast be handing them their hat and showing the way to the door! smile
_________________________

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#2170273 - 10/22/13 08:28 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: sophial]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8858
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: sophial
Happy Birthday, dear Franz Liszt-- quite possibly the greatest pianist who ever lived, virtuoso and consummate musician, composer, innovator, conductor, transcriber, generous colleague, teacher for the ages, and humanitarian. The word "genius" is tossed around easily, but Liszt truly was one. Thank you for so many sublime musical moments.

Many thanks for your post, sophial. You said it so well. heart

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?
_________________________
Jason

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#2170277 - 10/22/13 08:42 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
Originally Posted By: sophial
Happy Birthday, dear Franz Liszt-- quite possibly the greatest pianist who ever lived, virtuoso and consummate musician, composer, innovator, conductor, transcriber, generous colleague, teacher for the ages, and humanitarian. The word "genius" is tossed around easily, but Liszt truly was one. Thank you for so many sublime musical moments.

Many thanks for your post, sophial. You said it so well. heart

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?

Jason, they were both geniuses, and I am not going to argue right now that one is greater than the other. However, what I will say is that Chopin surpassed them both.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170284 - 10/22/13 08:57 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5028
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies and Symphonic Dances are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)? And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?

And Rachmaninov's 'The Bells' is much better than Liszt's Christus?

Need I say more?

Or am I just 'confused', because Brendel (and you) says so? wink

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#2170289 - 10/22/13 09:07 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Valencia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 248
Happy Birthday to Liszt! smile Hopefully one day I'll be able to play one of his pieces.

For now, here is Valentina playing Totentanz, which seems a perfect piece for honouring his 202 birthday:


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#2170290 - 10/22/13 09:08 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6114
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are

sentimental tripe.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Need I say more?


Say less.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2170293 - 10/22/13 09:15 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Damon]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5028
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are

sentimental tripe.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Need I say more?


Say less.

No, I'll say more.

Rachmaninov's chamber music (especially his cello sonata) is far better than any of Liszt's.
And his songs are far better than any of Liszt's.

I think that just about covers everything....

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).

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#2170310 - 10/22/13 09:51 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)? And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?

I wouldn't go so far as "immeasurably greater," but it's true that Liszt never wrote an orchestral work as great as Rachmaninoff's 2nd Symphony, and his concertos cannot compare with Rach's 2nd and 3rd.

Now let's see Jason argue the superiority of the vapid Liszt 1st concerto over the Rach 3rd.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170321 - 10/22/13 10:11 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8858
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

Now let's see Jason argue the superiority of the vapid Liszt 1st concerto over the Rach 3rd.

But I thought it was the other was around.

The Liszt Eb is a marvelously inventive work, nothing like it had ever been written before, totally original and miraculously spontaneous.

That alone would put it above Rachmaninov 3, which is none of those.

You're not going to win this, Poly. wink
_________________________
Jason

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#2170322 - 10/22/13 10:15 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
The Liszt Eb is a marvelously inventive work, nothing like it had ever been written before, totally original and miraculously spontaneous.

That alone would put it above Rachmaninov 3, which is none of those.

It is definitely inventive and spontaneous. The Liszt is mostly an empty technical display.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170366 - 10/23/13 12:20 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 604
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

However, what I will say is that Chopin surpassed them both.



shocked

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)?


shocked

Originally Posted By: bennevis
And Rachmaninov's 'The Bells' is much better than Liszt's Christus?


shocked shocked shocked WHAT. I'd take Christus based on the Stabat Mater Dolorosa alone.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?


His 2nd and 3rd PC's, yes (3rd is one of my favourite pieces of music, and I love the 2nd although I prefer Liszt's 2nd). For me, Totentanz > Paganini. I like Rachmaninoff's 1st and 4th about as much as I like Liszt's lesser pieces for p&o: De Profundis, Malediction, PC 3, and less than PC #1.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Rachmaninov's chamber music (especially his cello sonata) is far better than any of Liszt's.


True.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
And his songs are far better than any of Liszt's.


shocked

For me:

Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Liszt was a far greater innovator. Liszt wins grin

Of course, this is all meaningless and subjective.

I don't mean to denigrate Rachmaninoff: indeed, he is one of my favourite composers. The 3rd PC and the Isle of the Dead are two of my favourite works in their respective genres.




Edited by pianojosh23 (10/23/13 12:28 AM)

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#2170371 - 10/23/13 12:30 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Polyphonist Offline
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Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Your solo piano rating for Liszt is way too high (you can't just base it on one piece), and your piano/orchestra rating for Rach is way too low. And Rach wins for orchestra.
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Polyphonist

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#2170378 - 10/23/13 12:38 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...
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#2170381 - 10/23/13 12:41 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 604
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Your solo piano rating for Liszt is way too high (you can't just base it on one piece), and your piano/orchestra rating for Rach is way too low. And Rach wins for orchestra.


You think I'm basing it on just one piece? I do think there is nothing Rachmaninoff wrote for the piano that is as good as the Sonata, but I also put Liszt's Annees, Harmonies Poetiques, and Etudes ahead of Rach's Preludes and Etudes. I would take Liszt's Weinen Klagen variations over the Corelli's AND the Chopin. Also, there is Liszt's incredible work as an arranger and the fact that he just wrote more good music for the instrument...his achievement is far broader and his music has more versatility.

As for orchestra, I wouldn't put Rach 2 above Liszt's Faust, nor would I put Rach 1 or 3 ahead of the Dante. I see the Isle of the Dead as being as good as the best of Liszt's tone poems -if not better- but Liszt just wrote far more good music. You wouldn't put The Rock ahead of Tasso, Orpheus, Les Preludes, Huns, Heroide Funebre, midnight procession, etc would you?

As for piano and orchestra, I do think Rachmaninoff's achievements are more significant and deserve the nod by the margin I suggested, but Liszt's works are great for what they strive to be. They are very inventive, beautiful, and well constructed within their framework.

Again, though: all I am writing can only really be put down to what I like better. Heaps of people see it the opposite to me, and I am no more right than them.

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#2170382 - 10/23/13 12:41 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
You cannot compare them, they are too different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just STOP!
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2170387 - 10/23/13 12:46 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 604
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
You cannot compare them, they are too different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There's that, too. Really all I have said is that I prefer Liszt and his style better, and I am biased. grin

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#2170391 - 10/23/13 12:55 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 604
Anyway back to the point of the thread: Happy birthday Liszt, the composer who has given me more than any other.

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#2170392 - 10/23/13 12:55 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Haha, I didn't just mean you.. I meant the whole lot of them!!!

I love both, but of course Rachmaninov is my one and only. But, I have played tons of Liszt, so you cannot judge me (and yes, including the sonata).
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2170395 - 10/23/13 01:06 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.
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Polyphonist

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#2170396 - 10/23/13 01:09 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: pianojosh23]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
As for orchestra, I wouldn't put Rach 2 above Liszt's Faust, nor would I put Rach 1 or 3 ahead of the Dante.

Huh? I was separating concertos and orchestral works - so the Rach Opus 27 goes up against the Faust, and wins by a large margin. Opus 30 goes up against either Liszt concerto, and there is no contest there either.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170401 - 10/23/13 01:34 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.


Yeah, maybe, whatever... I still like the 1st sonata more than anything. But I do think the b minor is a complete genius.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2170402 - 10/23/13 01:37 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7573
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.


Yeah, maybe, whatever... I still like the 1st sonata more than anything. But I do think the b minor is a complete genius.

At least we have that straight. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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