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#2161919 - 10/04/13 10:14 PM Artifacts for the sake of realism
doremi Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1758
The CP4 Stage as the new replacement for the CP5 has added, for the sake of increased realism, artifacts from the acoustic piano world, such as the let-off notch and the graded key weight.

Question: Do YOU welcome the increased realism OR
Do YOU think that DPs can be better than APs without those artifacts?

The question is meant to be broad, the CP4 Stage vs CP5 is merely an example.
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#2161933 - 10/04/13 11:13 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
torhu Offline
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Registered: 01/09/12
Posts: 183
I think DP's have some way to go before those questions become interesting. But I'm more pragmatic than some people.
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#2161940 - 10/04/13 11:28 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Excellent question. I guess in my opinion it depends on how difficult it is to transition back to the acoustic after playing on the digital. For example, I find that playing on a digital (without letoff simulation) doesn't make it particularly more difficult to play an acoustic (which does have this). That is, I think the letoff friction makes playing more difficult, but it's not something I need to train on to be used to on an acoustic. For that reason I think it can be left out.

On the other hand, I kind of think the grading is important. On an acoustic you can tinkle out high notes very quickly and with little effort while the lowest notes require quite a strong hand. While this may not be a good thing, I think it's something the pianist needs to be accustomed to. I sometimes find myself playing high notes too heavily on acoustics because acoustics are graded more strongly than graded digitals. All digital pianos seem to have unnaturally heavy keys on the extreme right hand.

One artifact that I would like but that is not emulated in any digital or hybrid I know of is the fact that playing with the pedal down requires less force (because you don't need to lift the dampers) than playing with the pedal released. I wish digitals had that, but I realize it's a hard thing. As it is it seems that most of them emulate the heavier weight of the released pedal, which is why they tend to be on the heavy side. Excellent for Bach. Not so much for more modern stuff.

TLDR: I like grading but I don't like letoff simulation.


Edited by gvfarns (10/04/13 11:34 PM)

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#2161961 - 10/05/13 12:48 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
StarvingLion Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/30/13
Posts: 226
The pursuit of increased realism is nonsensical because digitals are played at a greatly decreased volume of sound because thats why most people buy them in the first place...to not disturb neighbors.

For example, even with headphones, the noise of keys bottoming can be so audible that even the neighbors won't put up with that.

This constraint alone kills the pursuit of realism.

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#2161964 - 10/05/13 01:30 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: torhu]
dewster Offline
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Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: doremi
Question: Do YOU welcome the increased realism OR
Do YOU think that DPs can be better than APs without those artifacts?

The latter.

Originally Posted By: torhu
I think DP's have some way to go before those questions become interesting. But I'm more pragmatic than some people.

Hear, hear!
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#2161966 - 10/05/13 01:58 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
Marcos Daniel Offline
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Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Punta Alta, Buenos Aires, Arge...
I would like that when you play a glissando fast and soft, the DP sounded, as in an AP, which sounds even if the key does not move down more than a couple of milimeters...
Would it be possible if DPs used optical sensor instead of rubber switches?

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#2161977 - 10/05/13 02:53 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: Marcos Daniel]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Marcos Daniel
I would like that when you play a glissando fast and soft, the DP sounded, as in an AP, which sounds even if the key does not move down more than a couple of milimeters...
Would it be possible if DPs used optical sensor instead of rubber switches?


The normal optical sensors that we see in, for example, the AvantGrands are essentially beams that get broken when the hammers pass through them. In the sense that interests you, they are pretty much equivalent to the electromechanical sensors in typical digital pianos.

The actual issue is not the sensors but the hammers. When you play a fast gliss and make sounds without pushing the keys all the way down it is because the hammers had enough momentum that they popped all the way up. Digital pianos also have hammers but they don't seem to be as completely free swinging as their acoustic counterparts. I'm not sure what the underlying cause is, but inasmuch as there is a difference in this respect, I'm confident that it is the physical mechanism of the key and hammer, not the sensor, that is to blame.

BTW it would be technically feasible to build a sensor that continuously measured position and calculated whether a hammer would pop up (aftermarket midi strips calculate how much light is reflected off the bottom of the keys but they don't do anything as smart as what I just suggested). I just don't think that type of sensor/computer is cost-effective. Or perhaps the manufacturers don't see it as necessary.


Edited by gvfarns (10/05/13 02:54 AM)

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#2161981 - 10/05/13 03:16 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
de cajon Offline
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Registered: 06/10/13
Posts: 190
Loc: London, UK
I thought at first that you meant sound artifacts. Re-reading, I think you're referring to tactile artifacts.

I think they're probably necessary. There's always some chance you'll want to play accoustic pianos as well as digitals. And after a couple of hundred years of tinkering with the mechanism, we can probably assume that the feel and the feedback work.

If you did mean sound artifacts, there are pros and cons. I would imagine that some noises are by-products of the mechanism and getting rid of them would be fine. (The whispering noise as the felt of the V-shaped dampers come out from between strings irritates me, for example.) On the other hand, there are noises that are part of the piano's sound and we would miss them. I think of the Hammond tonewheel organ, for example, where the engineers tried for years to get rid of some of the artifacts like the click, only to find that that was an essential part of the Hammond sound for most people.
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#2161993 - 10/05/13 04:49 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
peterws Offline
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Registered: 07/21/12
Posts: 3807
Loc: Northern England.
The biggest artifact would be greatly increased middle frequencies; acoustics tend to have this when you`re close to them. Like, playing. If any DP manufacturer set up a digital in like manner, sales would drop I imagine.

I suppose an external amplification system would be better, or an in built graphic equalizer like Pianoteq has. Then you can decide . .
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#2162020 - 10/05/13 07:31 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1462
Loc: uk south
I’m highly suspicious of letoff simulation. I believe it can only be a technical hazard for the broad majority of keyboard players and even those who aspire to a high level of skill. If that turns out to be the case then all I can see here is a coterie of market leaders trumpeting the drive for traditionalism in an effort to seduce market demand by fostering a naive notion that ‘authenticity’ can only be a good thing . Once that demand has been nurtured, it’s going to be difficult for a manufacture to persuade its clientele that by giving you less, by taking features out, you’re getting something better. That’s where we are with letoff.

More than anything else I would like to see a body of evidence – verifiable, not anecdotal – that letoff simulation is an asset in a DP piano action (I realise there's no current alternative in an AP). Until then, IMHO, the only beneficiaries are those few pros who routinely find themselves having to perform on APs and who want their DP practise sessions to feel as similar as possible. In the age of Youtube and E-citals where ever more performances are delivered on ever-improving DPs - excellent in their own right – it looks like we might be catering for an ever-diminishing minority.

If so, the market tail is wagging the market dog.

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#2162025 - 10/05/13 07:44 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: gvfarns]
Hookxs Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/02/13
Posts: 249
Loc: Czech Republic
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Excellent question. I guess in my opinion it depends on how difficult it is to transition back to the acoustic after playing on the digital. For example, I find that playing on a digital (without letoff simulation) doesn't make it particularly more difficult to play an acoustic (which does have this). That is, I think the letoff friction makes playing more difficult, but it's not something I need to train on to be used to on an acoustic. For that reason I think it can be left out.

On the other hand, I kind of think the grading is important. On an acoustic you can tinkle out high notes very quickly and with little effort while the lowest notes require quite a strong hand. While this may not be a good thing, I think it's something the pianist needs to be accustomed to. I sometimes find myself playing high notes too heavily on acoustics because acoustics are graded more strongly than graded digitals. All digital pianos seem to have unnaturally heavy keys on the extreme right hand.

One artifact that I would like but that is not emulated in any digital or hybrid I know of is the fact that playing with the pedal down requires less force (because you don't need to lift the dampers) than playing with the pedal released. I wish digitals had that, but I realize it's a hard thing. As it is it seems that most of them emulate the heavier weight of the released pedal, which is why they tend to be on the heavy side. Excellent for Bach. Not so much for more modern stuff.

TLDR: I like grading but I don't like letoff simulation.


+1, especially the part about action being lighter when damper pedal is pressed. This is actually rather important aspect of AP action, certainly more perceivable than let-off. I suspect this is partly the reason why I overpedal on acoustics.

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#2162074 - 10/05/13 11:04 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: Hookxs]
bennevis Online   content
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5440
Originally Posted By: Hookxs

+1, especially the part about action being lighter when damper pedal is pressed. This is actually rather important aspect of AP action, certainly more perceivable than let-off. I suspect this is partly the reason why I overpedal on acoustics.


Actually, I rather think that it's more likely that because your DP doesn't sustain anything like an acoustic, you over-pedal on acoustics.

I certainly find that I can get away with all sorts of pedalling sins on most DPs that I can't on acoustics - I can even keep my right foot down all through the first movement of Beethoven's Moonlight (which is actually what the composer requests - though admittedly his period Broadwood had poor sustain. Like most present-day DPs....). On my V-Piano, I have to dial the decay time to +60 to simulate the level of sustain similar to that of a small grand, and +70 for a concert grand.
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#2162078 - 10/05/13 11:14 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5440
Originally Posted By: doremi
The CP4 Stage as the new replacement for the CP5 has added, for the sake of increased realism, artifacts from the acoustic piano world, such as the let-off notch and the graded key weight.

Question: Do YOU welcome the increased realism OR
Do YOU think that DPs can be better than APs without those artifacts?

The question is meant to be broad, the CP4 Stage vs CP5 is merely an example.


Yamaha has finally seen sense grin - and realized that many people who play DPs also play on acoustics.

As I've said before, if you never play on real pianos, you'd do away with grading and let-off, and lighten the key weight loads........which is similar to what you'd get in cheap keyboards, come to think about it.

But if you have any aspirations at all of playing on real pianos, you'd want as many of the so-called artefacts built into the action as possible. The sideways-shifting of the keyboard when the una corda pedal is depressed obviously isn't possible, nor the lightening of keyweight when the sustain is depressed.

But the grading is so variable on acoustics that it's the one artefact that I believe is unnecessary, because on acoustic pianos, the better the piano, the less the grading in general. I hardly notice it on a Fazioli concert grand, but it's very evident (and obtrusive) on a Yamaha baby grand that I once played.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2162411 - 10/06/13 06:10 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
slipperykeys Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/12
Posts: 382
Loc: Dorset, England
It is strange to me how there is an assumption that an, "acoustic", indeed, ANY "acoustic" is superior to any digital, for me that is not the case, and I have the upright acoustic Hirsch piano to prove it.

There is a difference in acoustic pianos. For example, an upright does not have the same feel as a grand.
With the realism of modern digitals I think that a good digital is not worse than an upright, just different. In many cases, my own included, the digital is vastly better.

There are so many terrible upright and grand acoustic pianos around the world and people still play them.

To an extend any inability to adapt between the different types is down as much to poor pianist ability of the performer as it is to a difference in keyboard response.

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#2162441 - 10/06/13 08:46 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: dire tonic]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: dire tonic
I’m highly suspicious of letoff simulation. I believe it can only be a technical hazard for the broad majority of keyboard players and even those who aspire to a high level of skill. If that turns out to be the case then all I can see here is a coterie of market leaders trumpeting the drive for traditionalism in an effort to seduce market demand by fostering a naive notion that ‘authenticity’ can only be a good thing . Once that demand has been nurtured, it’s going to be difficult for a manufacture to persuade its clientele that by giving you less, by taking features out, you’re getting something better. That’s where we are with letoff.

I agree, though I see fake letoff as less of a technical hazard, and more of just guys sitting around the lab, instructed by their PHB to spitball ways to make the key mechanism more "realistic" when a bulb goes off and one of them (let's call him Moe) says "hey, we can easily put a $0.02 little rubber thingie in there you can barely feel" whereupon Larry goes to fetch the 20 gallon bucket of key grease and Curly is off waking up marketing.

Same with key weight grading, in most DPs it isn't nearly as prominent as in a real life, which is a good thing because I see these practices as something of a glass half empty. I don't see this ending well - at this rate we'll soon be forced to own DPs with slightly unlevel, warped, scraping, yellowed keys.

Sonically, I'd like more realistic variation from DPs. But when it comes to the keys, uniformity of action and lack of friction strike me as good goals, and both of these are undermined by IMO dubious marketing practices. Why can't the stooges be working on getting us better sound?
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#2162447 - 10/06/13 08:57 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: slipperykeys]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5440
Originally Posted By: slipperykeys
It is strange to me how there is an assumption that an, "acoustic", indeed, ANY "acoustic" is superior to any digital, for me that is not the case, and I have the upright acoustic Hirsch piano to prove it.

There is a difference in acoustic pianos. For example, an upright does not have the same feel as a grand.
With the realism of modern digitals I think that a good digital is not worse than an upright, just different. In many cases, my own included, the digital is vastly better.

There are so many terrible upright and grand acoustic pianos around the world and people still play them.

To an extend any inability to adapt between the different types is down as much to poor pianist ability of the performer as it is to a difference in keyboard response.

Yes, that's what I've implied in my posts here (and even in Pianist Corner grin) several times. I've berated my childhood Yamaha vertical often enough - OK, I did get to ABRSM Grade 4 on it before I went on to better pianos in another part of the world, but last time I paid a visit, it really was as bad as I remembered, with brittle and almost unvarying tone and keys that kept sticking: my DP is miles better in every aspect.

I've also said often enough that any serious pianist need to be able to adapt to any action (yes, even a harpsichord or clavichord or pipe organ wink ), and it seems odd to me that some people think there is such a thing as the perfect action. Spend an hour in a big piano showroom, and you'll find all sorts. And if that showroom has reconditioned as well as new pianos, and uprights as well as grands, you'll have a field day...

But what cannot be denied is that common to all of them is that escapement 'notch' feel, and if that causes a problem with your technique when playing softly and slowly, you'll never be able to play on any acoustic satisfactorily. Which is why I've never understood why Yamaha abandoned it on its Clavinovas until reinstating it (apparently - I've not seen it myself) on their latest model.
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#2163134 - 10/07/13 06:51 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
doremi Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1758
Is the hammer itself an artifact?

The hammer was needed for mechanical sound generation. But the hammer is not needed for electronic sound generation. A counterweight would do. With 2, 3, or more sensors.
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#2163135 - 10/07/13 07:02 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5440
Originally Posted By: doremi
Is the hammer itself an artifact?

Yes, and no DP has hammers except for the AGs and NU1. In those Yamahas, the hammers have nothing to hit.....
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2163153 - 10/07/13 08:07 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: bennevis]
gvfarns Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Yes, and no DP has hammers except for the AGs and NU1. In those Yamahas, the hammers have nothing to hit.....


I wouldn't say that. It doesn't look like a regular hammer, but all hammer action digital pianos I've seen have hammers. Anything with a counterweight that's not rigidly attached to the key is a hammer in my book.

It is odd that those Yamaha hammers don't hit anything, though. I guess they have their reasons.

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#2163299 - 10/08/13 06:26 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: dewster]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1462
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: dewster

I agree, though I see fake letoff as less of a technical hazard, and more of just guys sitting around the lab, instructed by their PHB to spitball ways to make the key mechanism more "realistic" when a bulb goes off and one of them (let's call him Moe) says "hey, we can easily put a $0.02 little rubber thingie in there you can barely feel" whereupon Larry goes to fetch the 20 gallon bucket of key grease and Curly is off waking up marketing.



I can easily imagine that grin

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#2163330 - 10/08/13 08:27 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: gvfarns]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Yes, and no DP has hammers except for the AGs and NU1. In those Yamahas, the hammers have nothing to hit.....


I wouldn't say that. It doesn't look like a regular hammer, but all hammer action digital pianos I've seen have hammers. Anything with a counterweight that's not rigidly attached to the key is a hammer in my book.

It is odd that those Yamaha hammers don't hit anything, though. I guess they have their reasons.

I think the hammer assembly is 'disconnected' from the key action, on an acoustic at the point of hitting the strings, so why bother have it hitting anything? Except perhaps 'hammer noise' which some DP's have as an adjustable parameter anyway. There - hammer noise - back on topic, do we have to have that?

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#2163629 - 10/08/13 07:58 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: spanishbuddha]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: spanishbuddha
Originally Posted By: gvfarns
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Yes, and no DP has hammers except for the AGs and NU1. In those Yamahas, the hammers have nothing to hit.....


I wouldn't say that. It doesn't look like a regular hammer, but all hammer action digital pianos I've seen have hammers. Anything with a counterweight that's not rigidly attached to the key is a hammer in my book.

It is odd that those Yamaha hammers don't hit anything, though. I guess they have their reasons.

I think the hammer assembly is 'disconnected' from the key action, on an acoustic at the point of hitting the strings, so why bother have it hitting anything? Except perhaps 'hammer noise' which some DP's have as an adjustable parameter anyway. There - hammer noise - back on topic, do we have to have that?

I agree with gv, a weighted lever that isn't connected to the key 100% of the time is a hammer, and all DPs with hammer actions that I'm aware of have this. The hammer must hit something to dissipate the energy imparted to it, and that something must sufficiently damp the hammer otherwise it will rebound.
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#2163774 - 10/09/13 04:12 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: dewster]
spanishbuddha Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 2434
Loc: UK
Originally Posted By: dewster
The hammer must hit something to dissipate the energy imparted to it, and that something must sufficiently damp the hammer otherwise it will rebound.

Done by the back check or hammer rail, on the actions under discussion.

Back OT again, in a other thread someone has discovered their DP's top octave and a bit has string resonance with the damper unpressed.

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#2164373 - 10/10/13 10:44 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
doremi Offline
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Registered: 04/06/07
Posts: 1758
The top octave (or so) of acoustic pianos has no dampers, by design, to help them 'sing' (although only a few acoustic pianos can truly 'sing'). Considering that no-dampers-in-top-octave is a deliberate design decision, I would not consider it an artifact.

On the other hand, emulating this effect on DPs is pathetic IMHO, at least on all DPs that I have tried out, because of the short sustains. Exaggerating a little to get the point across, I would say that you can't sing if you are coughing all the time eek
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Had I progressed to playing chords,
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#2164401 - 10/10/13 11:33 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
Daniel Corban Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/17/13
Posts: 215
Loc: Canada
I am under the impression that no dampers on the high notes is simply because the decay is so fast, they are not needed. Not adding the dampers would have saved time and materials when originally making pianos. In other words, it is an engineering and manufacturing decision, not musical.

As for the topic at hand, I am happy that Yamaha didn't add a fake escapement to their Clavinovas. I don't enjoy the feeling on the Rolands I have tried.


Edited by Daniel Corban (10/10/13 11:34 AM)
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#2164423 - 10/10/13 12:23 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
Daniel Richter Offline
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Registered: 10/09/13
Posts: 179
Loc: Venezuela
I prefer realism, to trick my brain as much as possible I am playing a real acoustic piano. No matter what, I think that is what digital piano manufacturers are trying to do, and anything that get both (acoustic and digital) closer is an improvement.

But the idea is simulate top of the line pianos, obviously. We don't need artifacts that are only in cheap, bad acoustic pianos.
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#2164458 - 10/10/13 01:46 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
Vid Online   content
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Registered: 06/12/01
Posts: 874
Loc: Vancouver, B.C.
Quote:
But the idea is simulate top of the line pianos, obviously. We don't need artifacts that are only in cheap, bad acoustic pianos.


I kind of agree to this but the problem with emulating only top of the line pianos with even actions would make a transition (in the real world) to the majority of acoustics you will likely have to play difficult.
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#2164742 - 10/11/13 06:52 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
Rincewind Offline
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Registered: 06/14/13
Posts: 9
Maybe someday DPs will be perceived as instrumets in their own right - but now they are seen as the less interesting cousins of acoustic pianos, and therefore try to emulate them as closely as possible, even their shortcomings that AP builders would gladly do away with but can't due to physical constraints.

As far as hammers are concerned - all hammer action DPs have hammers or physical equivalents of some sort. IMO it would make more sense to have sensors monitoring the HAMMER part of the assembly, not the KEY, as hammers and their action is what produces sound in a real AP. Are there any DPs that would have a sensor for speed and/or force of hammer impact rather than monitor key movement?

Also, the difference of key weight with or without sustain pedal (in AP) would not be so difficult to emulate in a DP. Im fairly surprised that no manufacturer has done it so far, in the race for realism. Or have they?

Anyway, I'd prefer the DP keys weighted on the ligher side, being a habitual pedaller.

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#2164806 - 10/11/13 10:29 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: Rincewind]
dewster Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/07/09
Posts: 4354
Loc: Northern NJ
Originally Posted By: Rincewind
Are there any DPs that would have a sensor for speed and/or force of hammer impact rather than monitor key movement?

Most modern DP hammer actions have the position sensors actuated by the hammer, not the key.

Originally Posted By: Rincewind
Also, the difference of key weight with or without sustain pedal (in AP) would not be so difficult to emulate in a DP. Im fairly surprised that no manufacturer has done it so far, in the race for realism. Or have they?

No one does this, not even Yamaha with the Avant Grand, because it would require complex and expensive physical additions. Whereas hammer weight grading and fake let-off are free or almost free.

Originally Posted By: Rincewind
Anyway, I'd prefer the DP keys weighted on the ligher side, being a habitual pedaller.

I don't play much but I agree. Weight up to a point gives greater control, but past that point gives greater difficulty playing and greater risk of injury. I'm kind of surprised at the overly heavy feel of most DP actions. And grading, even though it tends to be minimal in DPs, exacerbates this.
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#2164811 - 10/11/13 10:41 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: Rincewind]
gvfarns Offline
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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 3484
Loc: Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Rincewind
IMO it would make more sense to have sensors monitoring the HAMMER part of the assembly, not the KEY, as hammers and their action is what produces sound in a real AP. Are there any DPs that would have a sensor for speed and/or force of hammer impact rather than monitor key movement?


Well, if you look at the internals, all the common digital pianos we discuss here measure the movement of the hammer, not the key. However,

1) It seems to me that the hammers are not disconnected from the keys as much in digitals. It is possible but not easy to trigger a note on a DP without fully depressing the key. However, my impression is that this is much easier on acoustics. .

2) The sensors measure hammer position, not impact force. The two should give the same value except that the impact force is almost an instantaneous measurement. The way current sensors work is they measure the time it takes for the hammer to pass between the two sensors, which gives velocity. Knowing this and the mass you can get the force. The possible problem is that there must be some distance between the two sensors so any acceleration or deceleration that happens between the two sensors would be averaged out.


Edited by gvfarns (10/11/13 10:42 AM)

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#2166020 - 10/14/13 11:30 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
Marcos Daniel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Punta Alta, Buenos Aires, Arge...
Does anybody know is someone did a "blind playing test" with different actions?
Perhaps using a virtual piano, so the sound doesn't influence, that would answer our questions in some extent.
I think companies do this kind of test internally to develop new products, but it would be interesting that someone did it with different brands and actions within the same brand, perhaps we would be surprised with results.

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#2166094 - 10/14/13 01:46 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: Marcos Daniel]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5440
Originally Posted By: Marcos Daniel
Does anybody know is someone did a "blind playing test" with different actions?
Perhaps using a virtual piano, so the sound doesn't influence, that would answer our questions in some extent.

Anyone can do such a 'blind playing test' - I did so when looking to buy my DP three years ago, and occasionally since then, when testing a new DP.

All you have to do is to play the DP with it switched off. Or pull out the plug.... wink
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2166112 - 10/14/13 02:09 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: doremi]
Marcos Daniel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Punta Alta, Buenos Aires, Arge...
I mean without knowing the model, like pepsi challenge

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#2166219 - 10/14/13 05:15 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: Marcos Daniel]
bennevis Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5440
Originally Posted By: Marcos Daniel
I mean without knowing the model, like pepsi challenge

Then you'd actually have to be blindfolded, but I don't see how that is relevant - unless you've been conditioned to expect a certain type of action based on the brand and the model etc.

Or unless you're a DP 'virgin' - like I was three years ago - and have absolutely no preconceptions of what actions specific DP models have. In fact, what I found, as a DP virgin, was that my preconceptions (such as they were) were thrown out of the window: I'd expected Clavinovas to feel and sound closest to the real thing (as Yamaha is the biggest respected brand in acoustic pianos), whereas they were well behind Roland and Kawai DPs in both aspects.
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2166376 - 10/14/13 11:24 PM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: bennevis]
Marcos Daniel Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/07/13
Posts: 184
Loc: Punta Alta, Buenos Aires, Arge...
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Then you'd actually have to be blindfolded, but I don't see how that is relevant - unless you've been conditioned to expect a certain type of action based on the brand and the model etc.


That was what I was referring to, when we test a keyboard we already know the brand reputation, if it is a entry level action, if it has ivory touch, let off, etc, so much information perhaps influences what we feel.

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#2168820 - 10/20/13 08:20 AM Re: Artifacts for the sake of realism [Re: Marcos Daniel]
anotherscott Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/20/10
Posts: 3412
Originally Posted By: Marcos Daniel
I would like that when you play a glissando fast and soft, the DP sounded, as in an AP, which sounds even if the key does not move down more than a couple of milimeters...

I have noticed that some DPs are much more amenable to a shallow thumbnail gliss than others. The Roland Ivory Feel-G (as I played in the FP-4F) is poor for gliss, so is the Fatar TP40 (as I played in the Nord Stage 2 HA). OTOH, I thought the "PHA III Ivory Feel-S Keyboard with Escapement" (Roland FP-7F) and assorted Casios were fine.

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