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#2155929 - 09/23/13 02:12 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Detecting the counterfeits (2)

A customer visiting an estate sale upgraded to a vintage "Steinway" grand. Being a "Steinway," much money was paid for it.

After purchasing she called the tech who, upon arrival, made the following observations:

1. Steinway fallboard decal to match period present? Yes.
2. Steinway indicated in raised letters on the harp? Nothing present at all. The harp is plain.
3. Harp bears no resemblance to any known Steinway product.
4. Action is not Steinway.
5. Steinway manufactures no grand as small as this one.

What is it then? A counterfeit via a Steinway decal placed on an older refinish job.

Unlike most, this story has a better ending. Once it was pointed out to the estate sale person that the piano was a counterfeit, a full refund was offered. In this, she got lucky. That she was an attorney didn't hurt either.


Edited by bkw58 (09/23/13 10:06 AM)
Edit Reason: clarity
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2159245 - 09/28/13 06:14 PM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
A grand piano moved into the State with the pianist in tow and with a "complete" humidity control system as well. He was quite proud having installed it by himself.

During my first service call I checked the pads. Beneath the beast something was clearly amiss. While asking about it, he said: "O, yeah. I wondered what that was for."

He left the room and returned with the moisture shield in hand.

I installed it and told the client that I'd be back to tune after the system did its thing.

About a month or two passed and I returned to tune.

Didn't have the heart to tell him of the crack now visible in the area of the board directly above the tank.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2160063 - 09/30/13 12:33 PM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
In the following incident, the piano owner is a teacher. The rebuilder is no more - at least not under the name on the receipt - but was of wide renown in the industry, which makes the incident all the more surprising. Renown doesn't always mean qualified. Locating a qualified rebuilder is much the same process as finding a good piano tech. Remarks on this are elsewhere in this thread. The following course of action was recommended. The present disposition of the piano in question is unknown.


Dear ____________Piano Rebuilders:

I am writing because my numerous phone calls have not been returned.

Once again, thank you for rebuilding my vintage Steinway. It is absolutely gorgeous. I only wish that it played as well as it looks.

Apparently you did not have the foresight to understand that rebuilding a piano brings a return to normal usage, and with this comes stress on old parts that you did not see the need to replace.

I am now on my third piano technician trying to determine why the piano action is not working correctly. Some keys do not repeat. Others no longer function at all. The reason, he tells me, is that the only parts you replaced are the hammers and key bushings. The hammer shanks, flanges and wippens are all original, that is over 100 years old.

Repetition springs are failing. The jacks are coming unglued. Buttons are splitting. The action cannot even be regulated correctly and what little can be done doesn't last more than a day or two. You have completely ignored the under-lever parts and the sostenuto.

Given the great distance between us, I urge you to send the necessary funds so my technician can replace the parts and regulate the action. Until such time as you see fit to do so, all that I have is an expensive piece of furniture and little else.

Sincerely,


__________

Piano Teacher






Edited by bkw58 (09/30/13 01:28 PM)
Edit Reason: typos
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2160376 - 10/01/13 08:51 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
A vintage Grotrian grand was in need of rebuilding. Some hesitation ensued due to a crack in the harp.

The local piano tech advised against rebuilding.

When a rebuilder in another State provided assurance that the crack would be repaired and shot the owner a low price, the temptation to proceed was irresistible.

The tech well-knew the quality of work that this particular rebuilder was known for: fast and cheap. Once again, he advised against it.

Notwithstanding, off the Grotrian went.

Upon completion, it arrived back. The piano looked great!

A close inspection by the tech revealed a smooth repair to the harp. Too smooth. But the owner was happy and the tech just smiled and departed.

Fall soon gave way to winter and it was time to tune. The crack in the harp was back. Under the glass the tech could see no signs of repair - not even a dried spot of Elmer's.

Meanwhile, the rebuilder had passed away and his business was no more.

For months the owner pondered what to do. It was during this time that a new method of plate repair was receiving very good reports both here and abroad. And so, the Grotrian was shipped overseas. And another large fee was paid.

When it arrived back in the States, the repair was smooth and undetectable. But the diameter of the plate section was noticeably thicker. Characteristic of the new process.

The Grotrian went on to live a good life.



Edited by bkw58 (10/01/13 08:54 AM)
Edit Reason: typo
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2160380 - 10/01/13 09:05 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: bkw58
A grand piano moved into the State with the pianist in tow and with a "complete" humidity control system as well. He was quite proud having installed it by himself.

During my first service call I checked the pads. Beneath the beast something was clearly amiss. While asking about it, he said: "O, yeah. I wondered what that was for."

He left the room and returned with the moisture shield in hand.

I installed it and told the client that I'd be back to tune after the system did its thing.

About a month or two passed and I returned to tune.

Didn't have the heart to tell him of the crack now visible in the area of the board directly above the tank.


I heard such bad reports befor the humidifier rods had a security and they do not warm if the pads are not functionning.

What I do not accept is that the humidistat have no security and can turn wild, humidifying or drying all times.

Thoses systems have to be under survey when they are installed.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2160394 - 10/01/13 09:24 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: Olek]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: bkw58
A grand piano moved into the State with the pianist in tow and with a "complete" humidity control system as well. He was quite proud having installed it by himself.

During my first service call I checked the pads. Beneath the beast something was clearly amiss. While asking about it, he said: "O, yeah. I wondered what that was for."

He left the room and returned with the moisture shield in hand.

I installed it and told the client that I'd be back to tune after the system did its thing.

About a month or two passed and I returned to tune.

Didn't have the heart to tell him of the crack now visible in the area of the board directly above the tank.


I heard such bad reports befor the humidifier rods had a security and they do not warm if the pads are not functionning.

What I do not accept is that the humidistat have no security and can turn wild, humidifying or drying all times.

Thoses systems have to be under survey when they are installed.


Exactly, Isaac. The DC system has evolved over the years improving every step of the way. Unfortunately, the piano owner installed a system without the "smart bar."

I do not know how the absence of the moisture shield had gone undetected for so long. Prior to my servicing it, apparently someone had been changing the pads. Perhaps the owner? Are there some piano supply companies that sell to those not in the trade? Yes. And sometimes with tragic results.

All DC systems need to be checked at least twice annually - especially those without the "smart bar" feature.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2160402 - 10/01/13 09:47 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
if the original circuitry had been redesigned to "do nothing" when moisture level is acceptable this would never happen.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2160762 - 10/02/13 08:23 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: Olek]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Olek
if the original circuitry had been redesigned to "do nothing" when moisture level is acceptable this would never happen.



I agree with your previous remarks, but not sure I understand this one. Thanks all the same.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2160938 - 10/02/13 06:05 PM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: bkw58
Originally Posted By: Olek
if the original circuitry had been redesigned to "do nothing" when moisture level is acceptable this would never happen.



I agree with your previous remarks, but not sure I understand this one. Thanks all the same.


I mean that the circuitry probably have only one relay so the humidifier is on, or in the other position that is the deshumidifier.
It may be because he system correct the RHslowly, they may have think it was not necessary to have a position where nothing happens.

But when there is an electronic glitch one or the other is on.
That is what I call "no security."
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2161019 - 10/03/13 12:08 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: Olek]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Olek
if the original circuitry had been redesigned to "do nothing" when moisture level is acceptable this would never happen.



This is a deliberate design feature. The very low power of the system requires that it function continuously.
_________________________
Keith Akins, RPT
USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
Supporting Piano Owners D-I-Y piano tuning and repair

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#2161072 - 10/03/13 05:48 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
I would not mind if the system stopped on the days where HR is between 45 and 55 for instance.
or even in a smaller plague.
As this is climate dependent, this also should allow for less power used.

I am not electronics designer but the logic tells me that independent relay (or one with 3 positions, does not look like rocket science) should do it and there is only 2 positions one in the box.

I did not hear much reports of failure, I changed a few hygrostats that where noisy or did not function properly,(and where graciously changed and fast enough) but I had to meet a piano that suffered from constant humidification for 3 weeks during humid season to begin to be cautious. It could have been much worse. That last report of crack due to humidifier with dry pads or without pads was more often told to me.

Due to the cost of pianos, I suggest those accessories should be absolutely foolproof.

I believe that it is not so difficult to design and realize a circuitry in 2013.

My initial guess that they did not like oure 60Hz 220 V power.


Edited by Olek (10/03/13 06:44 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2161077 - 10/03/13 06:31 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Mark R. Online   content
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/31/09
Posts: 1961
Loc: Pretoria, South Africa
Keith, could you explain further, please?

Why is there a need for the system to be operational if the rH is within specs? Why not have a separate control loop...
... for the humidifier (e.g. "on" at 40%, "off" at 43% or even 46%)
... and the dehumidifier (e.g. "on" at 50%, "off" at 47% or even 44%) ?


Edited by Mark R. (10/03/13 06:36 AM)
Edit Reason: corrected a number
_________________________
Autodidact interested in piano technology.

1922 49" Zimmermann, project piano.
1970 44" Ibach, daily music maker.

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#2161109 - 10/03/13 08:56 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: kpembrook]
Robert Scott Online   content
Full Member

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 282
Loc: Minnesota
I agree with Mark and Olek. There is no reason in principle why a humidity control system, even one operating on minimal power, could not provide a dead band of several percent RH where neither humidification nor drying was taking place. This would slightly enlarge the excursions of RH because of the dead band. But it could potentially save power and water, requiring less refilling when ambient RH is high. However the main reason for the design is cost. The existing design uses a simple 2-position snap action humidity-sensitive switch that routes power to one heating element or the other. There is no electronic sensor for humidity. There is no relay. To implement a dead-band would require a substantially more expensive control unit, perhaps with a micro controller.
_________________________
Robert Scott
Hopkins, Minnesota
http://www.tunelab-world.com

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#2161113 - 10/03/13 09:10 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
Thank you Robert

I cannot believe 3 position sensors could not be found.

I seem to have a simple hygrostat for my deshumidifier (with a long horse hair in a tube) and the switching allows for a neutral zone, (seem to me) without any electronics.



I see no mention of maintenance for the hygrostat. My system need to be dusted, and calibrated from time to time.



Edited by Olek (10/03/13 09:24 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2161425 - 10/03/13 09:24 PM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
Craigslist is where people go to get a piano on the cheap. That's exactly what they get. But sometimes they get a piano that's not worth hauling to the dump.
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Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2161435 - 10/03/13 09:42 PM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2380
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
FWIW, the dehumidifier bars on the Piano Lifesaver systems I've installed are cold to the touch when it's dry. If there's current, it's not enough to create heat.
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
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#2161953 - 10/05/13 12:06 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: Robert Scott]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3187
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott
I agree with Mark and Olek. There is no reason in principle why a humidity control system, even one operating on minimal power, could not provide a dead band of several percent RH where neither humidification nor drying was taking place.


Yes.

That's what i do for a living - I'm a mechanical engineer whose interests are HVAC and control.

NOBODY designs a system without a deadband. I was shocked to hear the DC doesn't have one. Even the cheapest "honeywell round" thermostat for your furnace incorporates one to forestall short cycling.

It would be dirt cheap to incorporate this feature.
_________________________
gotta go practice

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#2162909 - 10/07/13 08:58 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
From another PW Tech thread and germane to the issue addressed herein:

If nothing else, consulting a qualified piano tech might have prevented this:

"The DIY Crown Saver" (Patent pending) wow (With apologies to M&H.)

Can it be undone? Most anything can. But at what cost?

(Thanks to Jim for posting and his customer for the pic. This one is worth much more than a thousand words.)

_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2162920 - 10/07/13 09:17 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: Robert Scott]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Robert Scott
I agree with Mark and Olek. There is no reason in principle why a humidity control system, even one operating on minimal power, could not provide a dead band of several percent RH where neither humidification nor drying was taking place. This would slightly enlarge the excursions of RH because of the dead band. But it could potentially save power and water, requiring less refilling when ambient RH is high. However the main reason for the design is cost. The existing design uses a simple 2-position snap action humidity-sensitive switch that routes power to one heating element or the other. There is no electronic sensor for humidity. There is no relay. To implement a dead-band would require a substantially more expensive control unit, perhaps with a micro controller.


Thanks to everyone who commented on the DIY DC installation: Mark, Keith, Jim, Isaac, Robert, Tim, etc. Good questions are raised with respect to a "dead band." No doubt, DC has addressed this issue in the past? If not, a response from DC is invited. (In a DC-specific thread would be ideal.)
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2162930 - 10/07/13 09:43 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Olek Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7434
Loc: France
I seem to recall they pretend the system cycles in permanence due to small variations during the day, and also due to the slowness of correction obtained (the efficiency would come from a warm air cycling and circulating, they may have think a little to find that argument, the subject being not easy to defend wink.

Actually, when properly installed - in not too extreme conditions- and when everything works, the moisture is "regulated" (stay within a acceptable range at 15% variance if memory serves.

Eventually this is just not much "politically correct" to have the system using power when unnecessary, but I could accept that.

My main concern now is the humidistat, if not working properly, can leave one of the sytems on permanently. seshumidifier or humidifier.

I believe that a dead band would avoid that, as the system have to switch above and under a certain level , I suppose (?) it may suppress the danger of having something on "by default".

Now an attentive and educated customer could keep the system under survey easily, noticing if something does not go as expected. But experience showed me they generally are not very attentive and some of them do not understand the moisture levels well, or have not an external hygrometer.

And in institutional environment, who cares ?

Jim of course the dehumidifier say cold when unnecessary , if everything is working correctly and even in absence of humidifier.

If something was plugged on the over outlet it would be on, during that time.

I did not install so many system, that is why I was chocked to have those fails. It is presented as fool proof, with documents signed from piano companies saying their benefit.

I did not even envisage they could stay blocked in one position.

I suspect that the DC company lives on a "situation rent".









Edited by Olek (10/07/13 09:56 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


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#2163217 - 10/07/13 11:35 PM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Gary Fowler Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/27/13
Posts: 375
The problem is that the average person thinks that their child's piano teacher is a piano expert. Nothing could be further from the truth.
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Making the world a better sounding place, one piano at a time...

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#2163426 - 10/08/13 11:52 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: Gary Fowler]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Gary Fowler
The problem is that the average person thinks that their child's piano teacher is a piano expert. Nothing could be further from the truth.


Often, students will look to their piano teacher for expertise in recommending a piano tuner. This expertise we welcome, especially when it's our telephone that rings. It's when piano teachers recommend a specific piano that we must walk a fine line. The challenge for techs is in learning how to work with the teacher when we believe he or she to be wrong. Further complicating matters is when a finders fee is on the line. This is not to say that we should acquiesce to a bad recommendation. Truth is always right. It's all about tact. Offend one piano teacher in word or deed and be prepared to lose her business as well as students, families, friends and neighbors. The piano-chain can be far lengthier than we think.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2163477 - 10/08/13 01:43 PM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Sometimes the involvement of the piano teacher is quite innocuous. What often happens is that a teacher is asked to play "some pianos" to help with selection of a piano. A decent teacher can certainly express an opinion about touch and tone. That can be very helpful to parents who are non-players.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2163831 - 10/09/13 08:41 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: Minnesota Marty]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Sometimes the involvement of the piano teacher is quite innocuous. What often happens is that a teacher is asked to play "some pianos" to help with selection of a piano. A decent teacher can certainly express an opinion about touch and tone. That can be very helpful to parents who are non-players.


Thanks, Marty. Exactly. To the best of my recollection, all of my experiences with piano teachers in this regard were favorable. Some were just more challenging than others. It got really interesting when the piano student, parents, teacher and piano tech were joined by the various salespersons, dealers, siblings, best friend, et al. I think that's called a committee?
help
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2163837 - 10/09/13 09:01 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7239
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: bkw58
It got really interesting when the piano student, parents, teacher and piano tech were joined by the various salespersons, dealers, siblings, best friend, et al.



Now that, I'd love to see. (from a safe distance!)
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2168081 - 10/18/13 11:34 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
"Experts"

When doing the recon on qualified professionals we will often encounter experts: the real, the perceived, and the self-proclaimed. Therefore, is it helpful to remember the following:

1. Experts deal with both facts and opinions.
2. Experts in some fields are much more reliable than experts in other fields.
3. Experts disagree enormously among themselves.
4. Experts in every field are very unreliable when they speculate about the future, or (under some circumstances) the past.
5. A surprisingly large number of experts have been caught deliberately deceiving the public.
6. Experts have very frequently been led astray when their emotions have become involved.
7. Experts have a regrettable tendency to exaggerate their own importance, and to persuade the public that they know more than they really do.
8. Non-specialists very often can - and do - make better decisions than experts, once the experts have stated the facts requiring a decision.

If you have any doubts about a professional recommendation, do not hesitate to get a second opinion.


Edited by bkw58 (10/18/13 12:02 PM)
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
Piano Technicę

"Never argue with a fool, people may not be able to tell you apart." - author unknown

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#2169091 - 10/20/13 07:41 PM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: bkw58]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1674
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Well, I've just about run out of old stories to tell.
[Hold your applause smirk ]

If any other techs have something to share, please do so. Otherwise, I leave you with this link to the FAQ section of the PW Tech thread.

"Live long and shop wise."

How to find a good piano technician.


Addition to post #2168081 "Experts": The enumeration is attributed to Alan Hayward (M.Sc. [Eng.] Ph.D.)


Edited by bkw58 (10/21/13 07:29 AM)
Edit Reason: Attribution added to post #2168081
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Bob W.
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#2169206 - 10/21/13 12:20 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: Mark R.]
kpembrook Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/06/10
Posts: 1304
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Keith, could you explain further, please?

Why is there a need for the system to be operational if the rH is within specs? Why not have a separate control loop...
... for the humidifier (e.g. "on" at 40%, "off" at 43% or even 46%)
... and the dehumidifier (e.g. "on" at 50%, "off" at 47% or even 44%) ?


Sorry, I missed this for a while.

Here's the thing. Dampp Chaser actually employs engineers and has had a continuous product development, testing and research effort for years.

I've heard the explanation from Damp Chaser people, but don't have it all in my head at the moment. But the main takeaway is that the continuous operation is deliberately selected for a purpose -- not a failure in design scope or a cheapened approach driven by the sharp-pencil folk in the office.

If I recall, the function of the humidistat is to sense the operation of the system, not to relate directly to the ambient humidity in the room. The system is so low power that it must function continuously in order to be effective -- even at small variations of room humidity from the ideal.

Additionally, the system works on a cycling percentage where even in high humidity situations, the humidifier might come on and in low humidity situations the heater bar may come on. It may be 90/10% or 40/60% but it does cycle. It does not at all work by just operating the humidifier until there is adequate moisture or operating the heater bar until things are dried out.

I'm afraid this is not a very complete explanation, but is the best I can do at the moment for an explanation that made sense when I heard it.

What I have been impressed with over the many years I have been installing the systems is that it DOES WORK. That data point should be seriously taken into consideration before suggesting "improvements".

Hope this helps . . .
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USA Distributor for Isaac Cadenza hammers and Profundo Bass Strings
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#2169300 - 10/21/13 08:07 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: kpembrook]
TimR Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/17/04
Posts: 3187
Loc: Virginia, USA
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
Originally Posted By: Mark R.
Keith, could you explain further, please?

Why is there a need for the system to be operational if the rH is within specs? Why not have a separate control loop...
... for the humidifier (e.g. "on" at 40%, "off" at 43% or even 46%)
... and the dehumidifier (e.g. "on" at 50%, "off" at 47% or even 44%) ?


. The system is so low power that it must function continuously in order to be effective -- even at small variations of room humidity from the ideal.


Sounds good in theory, but humidistats are notorious for indifferent accuracy even when new, and quickly go out of calibration. Can a system sense small variations from ideal?

Quote:
Additionally, the system works on a cycling percentage where even in high humidity situations, the humidifier might come on and in low humidity situations the heater bar may come on. It may be 90/10% or 40/60% but it does cycle. It does not at all work by just operating the humidifier until there is adequate moisture or operating the heater bar until things are dried out


It's just an on/off humidistat, there's no microprocessor. I'd have to see this one to believe it. (and if you did have that kind of intelligence built in, it could have a dead band in the middle)
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gotta go practice

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#2169383 - 10/21/13 10:34 AM Re: It pays to use a qualified professional. [Re: kpembrook]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 514
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: kpembrook
[quote=Mark R.]
What I have been impressed with over the many years I have been installing the systems is that it DOES WORK. That data point should be seriously taken into consideration before suggesting "improvements".


I've been impressed as well. When you check a tuning after 12 months and there's been very little change in the tuning, it's a pretty good indiction the system is working. I've seen this time and time again, piano after piano.
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