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Perhaps. I'm not talking about carrying around a palette of different tunings for customers to choose from. I'm talking about which UT would be the single temperament to set as a standard.

Jim,

I may be missing your agenda but one possibility is to adopt a mild well temperament like the one Ed Foote proposed to me a few months ago. That could then be a springboard to other UTs.

Perhaps Ed and the other advocates would comment on having a "plain vanilla" UT as a standard base.

Wouldn't a "plain vanilla" UT be ET? Especially since it's been argued by proponents of UT's that no one really tunes ET?

(o moderator, where art thou?)

Jim,

I may be missing your agenda but one possibility is to adopt a mild well temperament like the one Ed Foote proposed to me a few months ago. That could then be a springboard to other UTs.

Perhaps Ed and the other advocates would comment on having a "plain vanilla" UT as a standard base.
[/quote]

Greetings,
If we were talking about plumbing, or building airplanes, or writing civil code that everyone must obey, standards would be good and necessary. But when we talk about intonation and pitch, we are talking about art. Artists usually prefer to be given as wide a range of expression as possible, and there is no one standard tuning that does this for everything. We can talk about how much compromise do we want, i.e. the refusal to compromise purity for freedom that meantone offers vs. the ET demand that compromise be exactly even across all keys. Picking a "standard" will never be possible; having a default, simple. The effective use of the "other" tunings requires greater knowledge on the tuner's part, so there is a reason to avoid them.

However, tuning ET for simplicity exacts its own costs. It homogenizes modulations, rendering them no more that changes in pitch, leaving it to our intellectual understanding to furnish the meaning to create emotional responses. Our involuntary response systems are not being yanked around by changes in dissonance. To some, this is a comfort. To others, sterile and unfulfilling.

Leaving this safe environment can be perilous to those that don't understand what happens when you add harmonic values. Chronological coupling of the temperament and composition can get us really close, since all the WT's are basically the same progression, differing in how roughly the sizes of the thirds progress around the circle, and how much distance there is between the most consonant and dissonant of them. Bach seems to have accounted for the 21 cent thirds found in keys like C# and F# on the temperaments of his day, Beethoven seems to have known how to use a Young temperament to create tension without harshness, and Brahms or Schubert's or Schumann's music does well in tunings with a milder form, but still with sufficient contrast to give harmonic direction to the modulations.

As far as ET goes, if no third is as large or larger than the one immediately above, and no third is as small or smaller than the one below, there will be no musician that can tell it is not a perfect tuning. Tuners will, but we don't listen musically, and there can be a lot of errors left in a temperament that will never be discerned in the music. To worry that departing will cause problems with other instruments doesn't seem to be supported by my experience, and there have been numerous times a string player commented on how much easier it was to play "in tune" with a WT piano. I am not alone in this experience, either.
Regards,

Yes, it would. In Sicily you'll find umpteen ice cream parlours with amazing trays of ice cream in a variety of wonderful flavours; each one different from the rest. There's one where all the trays contain exquisite vanilla; I hear it's very popular because it goes well with everything.

I get what you're saying, but that still does't answer the original question.

Okay, you got me there...

Hi Ed,

This has to be a quick reply as I am supposed to get dinner ready :-), I apologize for spelling and other inconveniences and will write in between your lines.

..."Greetings,
If we were talking about plumbing, or building airplanes, or writing civil code that everyone must obey, standards would be good and necessary. But when we talk about intonation and pitch, we are talking about art."...

I am not sure at all. Good intonation is given by nature, or learned throughout hard study; art is altogether a different issue, although both art and tune-intonation require skill, dedication and other qualities. Imo, there is no need to refer to art in order to do the most consciencious and beautiful tuning.

..."Artists usually prefer to be given as wide a range of expression as possible, and there is no one standard tuning that does this for everything."...

Some Musicians need "intonation", some others "express" themselves one way or the other.

..."We can talk about how much compromise do we want, i.e. the refusal to compromise purity for freedom that meantone offers vs. the ET demand that compromise be exactly even across all keys."...

As mentioned, your concept of ET is a simplification, but you are fully justified... since 12-root-of-two, simply, has never been used... it is a lame theory, not even good as a compromise.

..."Picking a "standard" will never be possible; having a default, simple. The effective use of the "other" tunings requires greater knowledge on the tuner's part, so there is a reason to avoid them."...

Do you really think that? I look forward to hear your tunings, be it UT or ET.

..."However, tuning ET for simplicity exacts its own costs. It homogenizes modulations, rendering them no more that changes in pitch, leaving it to our intellectual understanding to furnish the meaning to create emotional responses. Our involuntary response systems are not being yanked around by changes in dissonance. To some, this is a comfort. To others, sterile and unfulfilling."...

My words were not enough for you, Ed, to demonstrate how wird your believe is, other Colleagues may read more on this on the "Historical ET and Modern ET" thread.

..."Leaving this safe environment can be perilous to those that don't understand what happens when you add harmonic values. Chronological coupling of the temperament and composition can get us really close, since all the WT's are basically the same progression, differing in how roughly the sizes of the thirds progress around the circle, and how much distance there is between the most consonant and dissonant of them."...

It is not only a question of thirds, Ed, the question was and is about all intervals, even beyond the octave (!!) and chord hierarchy, that may tell you why a musician does not like being pushed around with variable beat-tensions, that is when their expression would be messed up.

..."Bach seems to have accounted for the 21 cent thirds found in keys like C# and F# on the temperaments of his day, Beethoven seems to have known how to use a Young temperament to create tension without harshness, and Brahms or Schubert's or Schumann's music does well in tunings with a milder form, but still with sufficient contrast to give harmonic direction to the modulations."...

And you talk about "contrast" and "harmonic direction"... I call that out-of-tune and harmonic misleading.

..."As far as ET goes, if no third is as large or larger than the one immediately above, and no third is as small or smaller than the one below, there will be no musician that can tell it is not a perfect tuning."...

I am not that sure, I would talk about "few", yes, perhaps few musicians will appreciate the difference you mention, perhaps that is how you have confused quasi-ET (read UT) with ET.

..."Tuners will, but we don't listen musically, and there can be a lot of errors left in a temperament that will never be discerned in the music."...

I have always "listened" musically and looked for no errors; if anything, one "error" is considering only 12 notes (the usual temperament), instead of the whole keyboard, be it theory or practice.

..."To worry that departing will cause problems with other instruments doesn't seem to be supported by my experience, and there have been numerous times a string player commented on how much easier it was to play "in tune" with a WT piano."...

Best, that proves that your tunings are good, at least for the musician you have met, but it is far from demonstrating that you know what a modern (aural) ET is about.

Regards, a.c.

I wrote:
..."Picking a "standard" will never be possible; having a default, simple. The effective use of the "other" tunings requires greater knowledge on the tuner's part, so there is a reason to avoid them."...

alfredo capurso writes:
Do you really think that? I look forward to hear your tunings, be it UT or ET.

..."However, tuning ET for simplicity exacts its own costs. It homogenizes modulations, rendering them no more that changes in pitch, leaving it to our intellectual understanding to furnish the meaning to create emotional responses. Our involuntary response systems are not being yanked around by changes in dissonance. To some, this is a comfort. To others, sterile and unfulfilling."...

My words were not enough for you, Ed, to demonstrate how wird your believe is, other Colleagues may read more on this on the "Historical ET and Modern ET" thread.

..."To worry that departing will cause problems with other instruments doesn't seem to be supported by my experience, and there have been numerous times a string player commented on how much easier it was to play "in tune" with a WT piano."...

Best, that proves that your tunings are good, at least for the musician you have met, but it is far from demonstrating that you know what a modern (aural) ET is about.
Regards, a.c.[/quote]

Greetings,

I never got questioned about my aural tuning. I think I was formally trained by the best, and spent most of my career working in professional musical situations. I have been allowed to microscopically examine the tunings of some of the finest tuners on the planet, and had them examine mine the same way. I have stretched and compressed, tuned by 12th, etc. If you have a magical answer to highly tempered thirds everywhere in an equal temperament, I would love to hear it, but all the synchronicity, beat cancelling, stretching and octave reinforcement that can be used doesn't erase the sameness. Like I said, some people are comforted by this, and your response seems to indicate you are one of them. What do you do with the dissonance that Bach obviously uses, like in his organ scores,( Toccata in D??). I don't think that blare of minor 2nds and everything else is unmusical, I hear it as a necessary precursor to the passage that follows. Dissonance is not bad, it is a musical quality. I maintain that a piano is capable of more than one harmonic texture,and that there is more musical value in a tuning that offers a variety of harmonic sounds.

My tunings are available. I have two CD's online (Katahn at CDbaby). There is a free version of a Mozart fantasie in a WT on the "Six Degrees" site, listen away! or you could perhaps find one of the millions of CD's by the country artists I have tuned ET for.

I am going to assume you meant "weird". That is fine with me. If following my own esthetic sense appears weird to another, it isn't my problem. I am comfortable with my direction, and I know of many others that share it. Inre the forums, what I am saying is that I've got people paying good money for these tunings, I am here just trying to explain why that is.
Regards,

Ok, back to the beginning. I think that because there is such a wide variation of aural tuning, the only standard should be a electronic tuning device calculation... After all, if having a standard is so important, then shouldn't it be the same all over? OnlyPure software is the only one that I know of that doesn't allow for user input to alter stretch, so that's probably the best bet to determine the standard - no way to mess with the calculation.

Ok, now all you aural techs can go run out and buy the software and learn how to tune all over again. The rest of us can dump our favorite ETD; we can train all the piano players to only expect an OnlyPure tuning - don't even try to suggest that there might be a better sounding way of tuning....

Ron Koval

Hi Ed,

I went to the Six Degrees site in search of the Mozart and couldn't locate it. I'd love to hear it.

Could you provide a link or identify the CD it is from?

Thanks!

Greetings,

I never got questioned about my aural tuning. I think I was formally trained by the best, and spent most of my career working in professional musical situations. I have been allowed to microscopically examine the tunings of some of the finest tuners on the planet, and had them examine mine the same way. I have stretched and compressed, tuned by 12th, etc. If you have a magical answer to highly tempered thirds everywhere in an equal temperament, I would love to hear it, but all the synchronicity, beat cancelling, stretching and octave reinforcement that can be used doesn't erase the sameness. Like I said, some people are comforted by this, and your response seems to indicate you are one of them. What do you do with the dissonance that Bach obviously uses, like in his organ scores,( Toccata in D??). I don't think that blare of minor 2nds and everything else is unmusical, I hear it as a necessary precursor to the passage that follows. Dissonance is not bad, it is a musical quality. I maintain that a piano is capable of more than one harmonic texture,and that there is more musical value in a tuning that offers a variety of harmonic sounds.

My tunings are available. I have two CD's online (Katahn at CDbaby). There is a free version of a Mozart fantasie in a WT on the "Six Degrees" site, listen away! or you could perhaps find one of the millions of CD's by the country artists I have tuned ET for.

I am going to assume you meant "weird". That is fine with me. If following my own esthetic sense appears weird to another, it isn't my problem. I am comfortable with my direction, and I know of many others that share it. Inre the forums, what I am saying is that I've got people paying good money for these tunings, I am here just trying to explain why that is.
Regards,
[/quote]

Thanks for your reply, Ed, I am pretty tired (after a hard day) but I will try to post my reply.

..."I never got questioned about my aural tuning."...

Yes, I believe you.

..."I think I was formally trained by the best, and spent most of my career working in professional musical situations."...

Yep.

..."...I have been allowed to microscopically examine the tunings of some of the finest tuners on the planet, and had them examine mine the same way."...

Yes, I hope you understand that here we get into relativity.

..."...I have stretched and compressed, tuned by 12th, etc."...

Hmmm... your "etc." leaves a too large leeway.

..."...If you have a magical answer to highly tempered thirds everywhere in an equal temperament, I would love to hear it, but all the synchronicity, beat cancelling, stretching and octave reinforcement that can be used doesn't erase the sameness."...

I too look forward to meeting you sometime, all would be easier and (I'm sure) more enjoyable.

..."...Like I said, some people are comforted by this, and your response seems to indicate you are one of them."...

I indicate that.. if we talk about intonation, "thirds" (only - on their own) do not represent an issue.

..."...What do you do with the dissonance that Bach obviously uses, like in his organ scores,( Toccata in D??). I don't think that blare of minor 2nds and everything else is unmusical, I hear it as a necessary precursor to the passage that follows. Dissonance is not bad, it is a musical quality."...

Here I would agree (I think I told you before), "Dissonance is not bad", so much so that minor 2nds (nor other intervals that sound "dissonant") do not need to be "more dissonant", just for the sake of making dissonance more... dissonant.

..."I maintain that a piano is capable of more than one harmonic texture,and that there is more musical value in a tuning that offers a variety of harmonic sounds."...

Perhaps I shoud have cut that sentence in half, 'cos it might be true.. "...a piano is capable of more than one harmonic texture..", but here we may swim into the Harmonic Ocean, where everything can be "harmonic"; no, better we stick to "intonation" and how we can share that feeling.

..."My tunings are available. I have two CD's online (Katahn at CDbaby). There is a free version of a Mozart fantasie in a WT on the "Six Degrees" site, listen away! or you could perhaps find one of the millions of CD's by the country artists I have tuned ET for."...

Thank you, I will try to get the links.

..."I am going to assume you meant "weird"."...

Yes, sorry.

..."That is fine with me. If following my own esthetic sense appears weird to another, it isn't my problem. I am comfortable with my direction, and I know of many others that share it. Inre the forums, what I am saying is that I've got people paying good money for these tunings, I am here just trying to explain why that is."

I thought we were talking about temperaments and intonation, not monay... as you see I cannot even spell that word. :-)

Sincere regards, a.c.

However, that is exactly what musicians do in practice. I have never heard of any codified dissonance chart, but a musician is taught to pull (lead) a 7th to the tonic or resolution (consonant). In effect, making the dissonance more dissonant.

Hi Ron,

Your post sounds a bit contorted, are you ok? The point is not a "software that doesn't allow to alter stretch", one point (perhaps) is there where you say "... a better sounding way of tuning".

I haven't tested Stopper's device, but I would certainly be able to say if it is worth... my own "intonation" standard.
.

Exactly MM, a musician would not like that passage to be "milder" nor over-contrasted, depending on the key (or the tuning)... this is what I mean by chord hierarchy.
.

Yes, go to CDbaby and type in the artist's name, which is Enid Katahn. It will show both of our well-tempered CD's. track 12 on the "Six Degrees" recording is a free track. (I am trying to figure out how to make all three of the comparison tracks free before I announce this on the forums with its own posting). The full liner notes are on another web site, but the Beethoven notes are all there. (Warning: long.)

I should have put a warning up there not to listen to the Pathetique before hearing some other, milder compositions, since the amount of tempering I used for that sonata was, while not wolfish, as extreme as I think people can tolerate. The middle Ab mvt. is backed up with a full 21 cents in the harmony. If that doesn't get one thinking about graveyards, I don't know what will.
Regards,

I assure that there is a standard, and it is well known and recognized by pianists.

They may even ask for another tuning if the piano does not sound as expected.

And that standard is carefully learned and worked, and bullet proof tuning too.

I think Ron was being humorous, Alfredo.

Thanks Ed,

I went to the "Six Degrees" site, rather than "CDbaby." I'll give it a listen.