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Not by anyone. The Hammerklavier is monumental in its scope of emotional depth and very hard to play. Even Stravinsky said the fugue of the last movement is "exhuasting".No sonata is as great as this one. And not just the Hammerklavier- sonata no. 21 also is terrifcally hard to master:
One of his greatest and most technically challenging piano sonatas, the first section of the Rondo requires a simultaneous pedal trill, high melody and rapid left hand runs while its coda's glissando octaves, written in dialogue between the hands, compel even advanced performers to play in a simplified version since it is more demanding to play on the heavier action of a modern piano than on an early 19th Century instrument.
Aha yes....!! You have it my friend. Only the Master can beat the Master. He was renowned in Vienna at being the most extrordinary pianist they had ever seen, so much so that virtuoso pianist Daniel Stiebert left Vienna never to return, after Beethoven beat him in a piano improvisation contest.
The greatest sonata not by Beethoven is, in my opinion, Chopin's 3rd. But I would put about 5 Beethoven sonatas before that.
I love opus 111 also- has what sounds like jazz in it! However I do think the Hammerklavier is his best in its depth- it just takes you on a journey and feels like his whole life is in it.The ending is sublime.When I first heard the Hammerklavier I was blown to bits ( in a good way)!
Chopin's sonatas are excellent but Beethoven's later sonatas have something almost otherworldly about them, transcendent- awesome; they affect me like no other piano works I have heard.
After Beethoven I prefer Chopin's- shame he only wrote 3!
I love opus 111 also- has what sounds like jazz in it! However I do think the Hammerklavier is his best in its depth...
I would nominate the Diabelli Variations for that position, or Opus 111 if we're only allowing sonatas.
Originally Posted by EdwardianPiano
Chopin's sonatas are excellent but Beethoven's later sonatas have something almost otherworldly about them, transcendent- awesome...
Chopin's have that also, and I think you're underestimating them, but of course he can't compare with Beethoven, the greatest man ever to walk this earth.
Originally Posted by EdwardianPiano
After Beethoven I prefer Chopin's- shame he only wrote 3!
Agreed, and it's only 2. One of them is no good.
I'm currently working on the B minor. It's incredibly difficult, but the coda alone is worth all the effort. And looking at the entire piece...Wow. That sonata approaches Beethoven, and surpasses everything else.
[quote=EdwardianPiano]I love opus 111 also- has what sounds like jazz in it! However I do think the Hammerklavier is his best in its depth...
I would nominate the Diabelli Variations for that position, or Opus 111 if we're only allowing sonatas.
The Diabelli Variations are excellent of course but I don't hear the emotional depth in them that the later sonatas have esp Hammerklavier.
Quote
Originally Posted by EdwardianPiano
Chopin's sonatas are excellent but Beethoven's later sonatas have something almost otherworldly about them, transcendent- awesome...
Chopin's have that also, and I think you're underestimating them, but of course he can't compare with Beethoven, the greatest man ever to walk this earth.
Yes, Chopin's certainly have great emotion in them and depth, but there is something indefinable in Beehoven's- I cannot quite put it into words. And yes Beethoven was the greatest man to ever be born. I think his character was as interesting as his music- big hearted man, eccentric and very courageous.
Quote
Originally Posted by EdwardianPiano
After Beethoven I prefer Chopin's- shame he only wrote 3!
Agreed, and it's only 2. One of them is no good.
I'm currently working on the B minor. It's incredibly difficult, but the coda alone is worth all the effort. And looking at the entire piece...Wow. That sonata approaches Beethoven, and surpasses everything else.
Have you heard the Liszt?
Which one of Chopin's sonatas is no good?! I'll have to lsuten to them tomorrow- not heard them for awhile- Beethoven has my full attention lately...
Heard Liszt's once, but was a while back- didn't grab me like Beethoven and Chopin.
And what about Beethoven's Fantasy op 77? Brilliant!!!
[quote=EdwardianPiano]I love opus 111 also- has what sounds like jazz in it! However I do think the Hammerklavier is his best in its depth...
I would nominate the Diabelli Variations for that position, or Opus 111 if we're only allowing sonatas.
The Diabelli Variations are excellent of course but I don't hear the emotional depth in them that the later sonatas have esp Hammerklavier.
Are you joking? Variation 24, 31, 33? And the variations as a whole are such a wonderful journey. It's the greatest work ever written for the piano, edging out Bach's similar masterpiece, the Goldbergs, by an appreciable amount.
[quote=EdwardianPiano]I love opus 111 also- has what sounds like jazz in it! However I do think the Hammerklavier is his best in its depth...
I would nominate the Diabelli Variations for that position, or Opus 111 if we're only allowing sonatas.
The Diabelli Variations are excellent of course but I don't hear the emotional depth in them that the later sonatas have esp Hammerklavier.
Are you joking? Variation 24, 31, 33? And the variations as a whole are such a wonderful journey. It's the greatest work ever written for the piano, edging out Bach's similar masterpiece, the Goldbergs, by an appreciable amount.
Will put them on you tube tomorrow....but no not joking..Hammerklavier is the one that affects me the most as an entire work but the variations in sonata no. 30 give me shivers of delight.
[quote=EdwardianPiano]I love opus 111 also- has what sounds like jazz in it! However I do think the Hammerklavier is his best in its depth...
I would nominate the Diabelli Variations for that position, or Opus 111 if we're only allowing sonatas.
The Diabelli Variations are excellent of course but I don't hear the emotional depth in them that the later sonatas have esp Hammerklavier.
Are you joking? Variation 24, 31, 33? And the variations as a whole are such a wonderful journey. It's the greatest work ever written for the piano, edging out Bach's similar masterpiece, the Goldbergs, by an appreciable amount.
Will put them on you tube tomorrow....but no not joking..Hammerklavier is the one that affects me the most as an entire work but the variations in sonata no. 30 give me shivers of delight.
Yes, I agree about the last movement of 109 - absolutely ethereal. But the "as a whole" prize, again, goes to Diabelli for me. The Hammerklavier is pretty high up there though, and at least we both love late Beethoven. You'd be surprised how many people out there don't get it. (Too deep for them? )
Yes, I agree about the last movement of 109 - absolutely ethereal. But the "as a whole" prize, again, goes to Diabelli for me. The Hammerklavier is pretty high up there though, and at least we both love late Beethoven. smile You'd be surprised how many people out there don't get it. (Too deep for them? wink )
They don't?! Well onto the Diabelli variations you mentioned then Chopin's C minor sonata. By the way here's a Beethoven radio station:
Those variations are of course briliant. I blew my nose during variation 32 (got a cold) and my ears popped really loud and the music leapt out at me! 24 is beautifully gentle and tender. I will have to listen to them again in one go when I am not tired and full of cold. I am still going with the Hammerklavier as the most profound though. Now onto poor Chopin....
[/quote] It's always good to fall under Beethoven's spell! When you meant the BBC prgramme- did you mean the documentary-drama one with Paul Rhys? If you really want Beethoven fresh and full of life then Ronald Brautigam on fortepiano is it! [/quote]
Crisp and vivacious! His tremolo is sublime. It is unfortunate the modern piano action adds so much extra work to getting to the music of at least the earlier LvB works. Early in my musical awakening I came across LP vinyl of ( was not available 8-track evidently ) Fritz Neumyer playing Haydn sonatas on a hammerflügel. Beautiful little gems.
Crisp and vivacious! His tremolo is sublime. It is unfortunate the modern piano action adds so much extra work to getting to the music of at least the earlier LvB works. Early in my musical awakening I came across LP vinyl of ( was not available 8-track evidently ) Fritz Neumyer playing Haydn sonatas on a hammerflügel. Beautiful little gems.
I like to rewatch the scenes in the Paul Rhys docu drama- my favourites are when he beats Daniel Stiebert in the piano contest and when Julie is struggling with the 3rd movement of the C sharp sonata and he is standing there watching, then he comes up to her he and says "Can I help?" And when he sits down to play it her mouth falls open in amazement. Did you know the pianist for this drama was Ronald Brautigam?
Oh I haven't heard the Brautigam Pathetique yet- thanks for the link! Ronald's playing on the fortepiano is stunning- I think B would approve. There are some more of his vids on you tube- check out the Hammerklavier sonata- astonishing!!
Is a hammerflugel a period keyboard? Ronald also has recorded Haydn on fortepiano- what a revelation! All the subtleties can be heard.
Here is the c sharp sonata, first mvt on a late 1800s piano with well temperament ( B was using something similar not equal temperament we have today):
Just popping in to give Mr B. a bit of love! I enjoyed playing Fur Elise and Moonlight Sonata 1st mvt as a teen, plus a couple of others. His music is so stormy and passionate. Loved the vid of the metal guitar version of M/S 3rd mvt!
Just popping in to give Mr B. a bit of love! I enjoyed playing Fur Elise and Moonlight Sonata 1st mvt as a teen, plus a couple of others. His music is so stormy and passionate. Loved the vid of the metal guitar version of M/S 3rd mvt!
That's nice Jessie- Mr B deserves it. Yes stormy and passionate is right- must be what makes his music so alive and engaging- the 3rd movement of the C sharp minor ( don't like the term Moonlight it doesn't fit it and Mr B didn't give it that name- it was quasi una fantasia...) certainly is stormy and passionate isn't it! The metal version is interesting.
I like to rewatch the scenes in the Paul Rhys docu drama- my favourites are when he beats Daniel Stiebert in the piano contest...
Is it this scene? I love it.
(By the way, it's Steibelt, not Steibert.)
Yeah that's it- well poor Daniel is so memorable I got his name wrong. They greatly simplified his playing for this scene as he was said to be a virtuoso pianist but Beethoven was better again! After he beat Steibelt, Beethoven was declared the champion and no more piano improvisation contests were held- it was then agreed he was the best in Vienna and unbeatable. Imagine his improvisations- they must have been out of this world! The descriptions by people who saw them indicate that.
)
) Fritz Neumyer playing Haydn sonatas on a hammerflügel. Beautiful little gems.