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#2167852 - 10/17/13 07:35 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
RonL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 181
I don't get all the Frank Hate - I am sure Dave will cheerfully refund your money - oh wait the videos are free.

Check out the end of his Charlie Parker video: there is a great summary of the jazz elements and an analysis the Koko solo - it is one of the best summaries of the things that make up the language: scales, chromatics, chord tones, approach tones, arpeggios. It's right at the end of the video. Highly recommended.

As a wise man once said about the Barry Harris video:

Any video by anyone on any subject is a "your mileage may vary kind of thing."

Amen and may the spirit continue to guide us to the right notes.

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Piano & Music Accessories
#2168194 - 10/18/13 04:11 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 436
Loc: California
A lot of hot talk in this thread, but what it comes down to is there's only two people who have recorded themselves playing for everyone to hear: myself and the OP.
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2168370 - 10/19/13 06:07 AM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Michael Martinez]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1455
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez
A lot of hot talk in this thread, but what it comes down to is there's only two people who have recorded themselves playing for everyone to hear: myself and the OP.


You’re confused and generating most of the heat.

Dfrank did what he routinely does, posting a video for public consumption so that viewers can take from it what they will. You piped up protesting that he was “short on teaching”. By implication, one can only assume that you claim yourself to be strong in the area that you accuse Dfrank of being weak, namely teaching. The proof of your teaching skills would surely be that one of your willing students shows us what he can do using your methods to learn to improvise. It is for them, your willing students (please don't count me amongst them!), to pipe up at this point so as to demonstrate just how effective your methods are.

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#2168667 - 10/19/13 08:19 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564

Here's Michael Martinez playing "Misty":

http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/Original%20Music/me/Misty.mp3

I rate this performance as mediocre.
The timing is not very good and the style reminds of a mundane pop pianist at a department store. The playing doesn't present a jazz rhythmic or jazz harmonic sensibility.

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#2168774 - 10/20/13 03:38 AM Re: rodeo LH [Re: rintincop]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1455
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: rintincop

Here's Michael Martinez playing "Misty":

http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/Original%20Music/me/Misty.mp3

I rate this performance as mediocre.
The timing is not very good and the style reminds of a mundane pop pianist at a department store. The playing doesn't present a jazz rhythmic or jazz harmonic sensibility.


It reminds me of the adage-

those who can, do;
those who can't, teach;
those who can't teach, teach others to teach.

(or, that last line, "..., teach gym" - Woody Allen)

If the English prof is filling in for the absent Chemistry prof, he need only be a page ahead of his pupils, so there's no reason why MM shouldn't be able to help those with less knowledge than himself but maybe the title 'educator' is a bit of a stretch.

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#2168848 - 10/20/13 09:45 AM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 436
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: rintincop

Here's Michael Martinez playing "Misty":
...
I rate this performance as mediocre.


If this is medicore, I imagine your own playing is rookie.

You guys are goofy. You talk about music like you know it, but I bet there's not one of you who can improvise or play by ear competently.


Edited by Michael Martinez (10/20/13 10:06 AM)
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2168883 - 10/20/13 11:08 AM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Michael Martinez]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez
Originally Posted By: rintincop

Here's Michael Martinez playing "Misty":
...
I rate this performance as mediocre.


If this is medicore, I imagine your own playing is rookie.

You guys are goofy. You talk about music like you know it, but I bet there's not one of you who can improvise or play by ear competently.


Oh, right.

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#2168944 - 10/20/13 01:44 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: rintincop]
ChrisDeVito Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/13
Posts: 2
Loc: New Jersey, U.S.A.
While I enjoyed listening to Michael's rendition of "Misty", I also understand why he sought jazz improvisation advice from Dave Frank's master classes. As someone already mentioned, Dave's Charlie Parker master-class is an excellent resource for right hand improvisation. In addition, Dave shares much more advice in his 20 or so other online jazz piano master classes. Perhaps one should study at least a few of these classes before criticizing the scope of Dave's knowledge sharing. I am not aware of any other series of master classes that can compare in terms of the shear magnitude of Dave Frank's online knowledge sharing efforts. I myself have studied at least a dozen of Dave's classes, and am now in my fifth year of private jazz piano lessons with him. In my 20+ years of formal/private training, I have never met a more dedicated educator (in any field). IMO, Dave Frank is the "Bill Evans" of online jazz piano education. I would love to hear from one of Michael's students. Thanks, Chris
_________________________
Chris DeVito
chris@chrisdevitojazz.com
www.chrisdevitojazz.com

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#2168955 - 10/20/13 02:09 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Michael Martinez]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez
[quote=rintincop]


If this is medicore, I imagine your own playing is rookie.

You guys are goofy. You talk about music like you know it, but I bet there's not one of you who can improvise or play by ear competently.


Don't be so quick to speak. Come to the Jazz advanced thread and listen to some of the players. I would post the links to my videos but I prefer to remain anonymous.

I seem to recall Michael that you were quite dismissive of Keith Jarrett as a "jazz" player. Perhaps your ears aren't attuned to recognizing his greatness.

For all the talk you write about on your website about harmony, counterpoint and jazz I heard none of that on any of your song clips. http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/Original%20Music/index.html

Frankly, do you even play jazz? I heard no sense of timing, syncopation, harmonic depth.... You were using root position block chords on Arthur's Theme. your Misty was.... no altered dominant voicings, all plain vanilla. weird trills added in the melody for no reason. I mean if you are going for the cocktail lounge gig it might pass. Have you even played in a proper jazz band before?

Sad to say I learned nothing reading your site, except cheap shills to buy your "jazz" books.

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#2168957 - 10/20/13 02:14 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
Man I sure learned "alot" on your Ear training 101 video!!


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#2168962 - 10/20/13 02:23 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
Gotta say, I'm not impressed one bit by your training videos. You talk too much, have too many "uh.. ummm..." play on some cheap keyboard which has horrible sound. the camera angle is "uh" very strange to look at, you hide your face.

Hmm, now compare that to Dave Franks' videos. Not so easy is it.

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#2168964 - 10/20/13 02:27 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
Is this how you play the "blues"? LOL


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#2168967 - 10/20/13 02:41 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
Here's a bet, can anyone sit through this entire video without shutting it off and can actually say they "learned" how to play a bass line?



Surely it doesn't take 33 minutes to explain a B minor pentatonic scale? You show no practical application of the scale, there is NO bass line, no rhythm or groove established.

Michael, I say this in the nicest way possible. You are NOT a music educator. I have many engineer friends and they all have that similar analytical mindset. Could be great for engineering, but when translated to teaching music...I would rather watch paint dry than have to sit through that mess.

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#2169056 - 10/20/13 06:09 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
BB Player Offline


Registered: 11/17/06
Posts: 2714
Loc: Not in Texas
How about if we leave the personal insults and ad hominem attacks at the door? If you find Dave's or Michael's posted videos useful - great! If you think they're a waste of time then let me suggest you not waste your time watching any more of them. If you're aware of others either created by you or by someone else that are more instructive then by all means post them but there's no need to insult either those who post videos or those who find them valuable.
_________________________
Greg

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#2169057 - 10/20/13 06:10 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 436
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: ChrisDeVito
While I enjoyed listening to Michael's rendition of "Misty", I also understand why he sought jazz improvisation advice from Dave Frank's master classes.


Wrong. I didn't (and don't) seek improvisation advice from DF's class. I reviewed his videos to critique their instructional value. I do this as part of recommending to students which materials are worth studying.

Originally Posted By: The Wind

Don't be so quick to speak. Come to the Jazz advanced thread and listen to some of the players.


I'm not talking about "some" of the players in other places. I'm talking specifically about the people who have spoken out on this thread. Like yourself, for example.

Originally Posted By: The Wind


For all the talk you write about on your website about harmony, counterpoint and jazz I heard none of that on any of your song clips.

Frankly, do you even play jazz?


Yes I do, over many years of playing I've done rock, reggae, jazz, pop and indie gigs - bars, lounges, hotels, out on the street. What about you?

Quote:

I heard no sense of timing, syncopation, harmonic depth.... You were using root position block chords on Arthur's Theme. your Misty was.... no altered dominant voicings, all plain vanilla.


Let me ask you a question. If you choose to harmonize something in a specific way, what does this say? For example, if I choose to harmonize the opening bar of Misty as Gm Gm Gm, instead of Gm >Gmaj >Dmaj/Emaj7, or some other "standard" way that you learn from your classes at Berklee, what are you going to say about that? Your comment about root chords shows that you simply follow what you are told instead of thinking for yourself.

If I sit down at the piano and I want to play a standard using root, 3rd and 5th chords in the LH instead of Bill Evans type voicings or quartals or whatever else, well then that's what I'm going to do. If I choose to do the piece with runs and embellishments, or if I choose to play the changes or make bebop lines, or if I choose to do it playing one single note throughout 8 bars, okay. The point is not how you play or whether you conform to preconception, the point is that you understand enough about music, and you have practiced enough of the right things, so that you know how to make your OWN music.

By the way, that recording was probably made, like 15 years ago and I don't remember where or under what circumstance. I have uploaded almost nothing of what I have done over the years in terms of recordings of any kind. This stuff is all scattered around in boxes, packed up, I don't even know where some of it is. I barely put this website together a few months ago when I finished writing my books.

Between my full time contract gig in computers, a half-time job in computers, a wife, music commitments, hanging out with drinking buddies, a mistress, and working out at the gym, I barely have time to do anything else. I wish I had all the time in the world. I wish I could devote 10 hours a day to creating lots of video lessons, taking someone all the way from the foundations up to playing jazz and reharmonizing tunes. I wish I could had hours to sit down and convert my cassettes and CDs to mp3. I wish I had more time for composing.

Quote:

Sad to say I learned nothing reading your site, except cheap shills to buy your "jazz" books.


Guy, let me tell you something. I took six months off work last year to write those books. Why do you think I did that? To make money from them? Give me a break. Any money I make from selling music books, or from doing anything in music for that matter, is pennies compared to what I make doing system engineering work here in the Valley. So then, why do you think I wrote them? I wrote them to share my experience with and understanding of music to people who want to learn. I wrote them because there's so much crappy music instruction out there, that it's ridiculous. People think there's some "mystical secret" to playing jazz. There's not. You just need to be taught the right way.

Originally Posted By: The Wind

Michael, I say this in the nicest way possible. You are NOT a music educator.


Spare me the patronizing "niceness." Until you prove you know how to play, your comments mean nothing. Your excuse is that you wish to remain anonymous. We all know what that really means: you can't play for sht, right?

The more people blab without showing what they're made of, the less credible they become.

We are still back at square one. Of everyone who has splattered their comments on this thread, only two people have demonstrated their musicianship: myself and DF.


Edited by Michael Martinez (10/20/13 06:14 PM)
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2169061 - 10/20/13 06:33 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
The Wind Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/28/13
Posts: 468
*Personal attack deleted*

Following up a warning about personal attacks with a personal attack has earned this poster a two week vacation. Anyone else care to join him or shall we restrict our discussion to instructional videos and lay off the personal attacks?


Edited by BB Player (10/20/13 06:46 PM)

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#2169527 - 10/21/13 02:06 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1564
Those 2 videos are slow paced and talk about basic music theory concepts from first year theory.

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#2170243 - 10/22/13 07:30 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: rintincop]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 436
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: rintincop
Those 2 videos are slow paced and talk about basic music theory concepts from first year theory.


That's why they are in the "Getting Started" section for beginning students. It would be nice, when you guys are critiquing my videos, if you would pay attention to the context.
And, I dont' mind criticism at all, as long as it's constructive and benefits everyone.


Edited by Michael Martinez (10/22/13 07:49 PM)
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2170598 - 10/23/13 12:12 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Rollin shoulders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/11
Posts: 51
Loc: WNY
This is a forum where ideas are meant to be spread, and discussed. Not to ridicule others.

Dave Frank posts informational videos, some of us don't enjoy the way he teaches.
Dave Frank self promotes because he makes money off of views on his youtube videos.

I'm starting to think he posts stupid things on these forums, causes controversy (annoying people), as a way to help his view count.
Kind of like pop stars who do something absolutely ridiculous on TV so consumers watch and talk about it...
Except, on a way lower level because this is a piano forum.

If I get banned or kicked from the forums (like my last account) I honestly don't care. Everyone is so thick on these forums. Go play piano or something
_________________________
1940's Wurlitzer Spinet
Casio CDP-100 with MacBook Pro for VST's
_____________________________
A.S in Music and Science '13
Music Certificate '13

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#2170600 - 10/23/13 12:14 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Rollin shoulders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/11
Posts: 51
Loc: WNY
The Wind - Your attitude is foolish. If you think you're so much better at teaching, why don't you post a tutorial video.

I hate these forums
_________________________
1940's Wurlitzer Spinet
Casio CDP-100 with MacBook Pro for VST's
_____________________________
A.S in Music and Science '13
Music Certificate '13

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#2170631 - 10/23/13 01:01 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
KlinkKlonk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/19/09
Posts: 368
whats' wrong with self promotion? it's not like anyone ever learned to play watching videos anyway
"post a vid" is the new "come at me bro!"; fit for video games or whatever, not for playing the piano!
piano is about love, guts, it's a REAL thing

one positive thing about franks vids is that he's not knocking down on other teaching methods, there are lots of vids with where some renowned player dismisses: "dont play with a metronome", "dont use chord scale theory" "use chordscale theory" etc

and even if you dont pick up something from a perceptual or technical point of view, his videos always transmit inspiration, and transpiration, at least for me.

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#2170751 - 10/23/13 05:04 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: KlinkKlonk]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 436
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: KlinkKlonk

"post a vid" is the new "come at me bro!"; fit for video games or whatever, not for playing the piano!
piano is about love, guts, it's a REAL thing


I'll give two thumbs up on this.

Quote:

one positive thing about franks vids is that he's not knocking down on other teaching methods,


I'll give a thumbs up here too
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2211042 - 01/08/14 05:19 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
spider Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 09/22/11
Posts: 2
Just a lurker mostly who is trying to learn. I like the arguing. At least it gets the discussion going, is often entertaining and usually results IMO in some learning beyond the Original Post. Oh well perhaps this will be like most forums where they ban contributors constantly and no discussion takes place.

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