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#2166257 - 10/14/13 06:35 PM rodeo LH
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 139
Loc: NYC
introduced here at 30:10

http://youtu.be/3CGOSToQWv0

DF

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Piano & Music Accessories
#2166267 - 10/14/13 07:04 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521
Who came up with the nickname "rodeo"?

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#2166279 - 10/14/13 07:32 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 139
Loc: NYC
yawrs trullie

DF

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#2166280 - 10/14/13 07:32 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 414
Loc: California
Hey, again I'm going to be a critic here. I skimmed through the first 25 minutes of this, and I saw nothing at all on how to develop improvised lines, I only saw some demonstrations of what chord voicings to use in the LH. But this is incongruous, because what you teach in this video is substantially simpler than what you actually do in the video, particularly with the right hand ... So, a bit confused as to who the target audience is supposed to be? The title says "Advanced Jazz" lesson. Okay, the playing is advanced, but the lesson is fairly simple, so ...?

I think what you should actually do, is break down the right hand, the improvised lines and show people how to construct those lines. I believe you'll find a substantially bigger, and more appreciative, audience if you do. Just my two cents. Keep on rockin'.


Edited by Michael Martinez (10/14/13 07:38 PM)
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http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2166290 - 10/14/13 07:57 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Michael Martinez]
Dfrankjazz Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 139
Loc: NYC
Listen, *deleted* I don't want to hear your opinions of my *deleted* that you skim through the first few minutes of. At least have to decency to watch the whole *deleted* thing before you unload.

The ablilty to add these types of stylistic elements to one's playing can only be done by advanced players, hence the advanced rating. This particular video is not about teaching the RH line, I do that in part on my Ustream Charlie Parker master class, TOWARDS THE END.

Dave Frank


Edited by BB Player (10/15/13 09:23 AM)
Edit Reason: Profanity deleted

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#2166549 - 10/15/13 08:35 AM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Roger Ransom Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/19/05
Posts: 1257
Loc: SouthWest Michigan
DFrank - Nice guy. If you post something on a public forum, you can, and probably will, get all kinds of comments.

If you're not able to deal with that, don't post.

Your comments are not appropriate here by the way.


Edited by Roger Ransom (10/15/13 09:21 AM)
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#2166567 - 10/15/13 09:31 AM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Roger Ransom]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1281
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Roger Ransom
If you post something on a public forum, you can, and probably will, get all kinds of comments.

If you're not able to deal with that, don't post.


Choosing the right to reply doesn't imply over-sensitivity.

Quote:

Your comments are not appropriate here by the way.


- they perhaps don't fit forum guidelines but I found them to be 100% appropriate.

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#2166577 - 10/15/13 09:54 AM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 742
If I knew how to post a Smilie face eating popcorn, which infers I am enjoying where this tread is going, i would post it now. smile
_________________________
AG N2, CP4, GK MK & MP

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#2166664 - 10/15/13 01:08 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 414
Loc: California
Quote:

This particular video is not about teaching the RH line, I do that in part on my Ustream Charlie Parker master class, TOWARDS THE END.

Dave Frank


Is this the only place you teach the RH line, or are there other videos or materials where you do this?

Honestly, after having watched a few of your videos, my opinion is that you are long on playing, but short on teaching. You've already demonstrated you can play, yeah? Everyone knows that, they can hear it. But playing and teaching are two different things.

So many guys think that they've been gigging for a long time so they know how to instruct others. But, almost nobody knows how to teach jazz. That's a fact. What I'd really like to see you do, is break down your right hand improvised lines into the elements that make it up. That truly would be worthwhile. Are you up for that challenge?

By the way, I don't mind the profanity. But I was hoping for a back-and-forth discussion rather than an obvious dismissal of my comments. Oh well.

I'll check out your Ustream Charlie Parker master class, and I will comment honestly about it. If it does what you say, I'll be sure to talk about it. But if it doesn't, I won't sugar coat my comments.
_________________________
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http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2166684 - 10/15/13 02:13 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Michael Martinez]
rintincop Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/11/04
Posts: 1521

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#2166699 - 10/15/13 02:54 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: rintincop]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 742
Originally Posted By: rintincop
+1
This is getting good. I've had many great teachers but it appears most teachers sometimes hold back some of the most important elements. For example, I learned from many places about the importance of using guide tones lines. OK, maybe I'm stupid but it wasn't until I bought Bert Ligon, connecting chords with linear harmony that the whole idea made sense and gave me a way to create an order in my head of how to choose a 3rd or a 7th, etc.

I'm not here to add to two experienced educators, but I feel like I could be a much different player if I could of had better teachers when I was a young boy.

I'd say I learned more in last 3 years using some books, but mostly bits from different YouTube videos.
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#2166708 - 10/15/13 03:37 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Randy Klein Offline
Full Member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 59
Loc: New York, NY
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with Michael Martinez' critique of Dave Frank's teaching. Dave Frank is not only a great player, but one of the finest teachers of this style of piano improvisation. It is true that the videos start from the point of a performance video, but why not? Musicians learn through imitation. Why not imitate one of the best. Dave has a monster LH. Look at it. Watch how his hand movements are meticulously placed. Notice how connected physically he is. You can see that his brain is connected to his LH. This is part of the learning in this lesson. Just because a lesson isn't specifically spoon fed, doesn't mean it isn't taught.

Lastly, everyone learns at their own pace and in their own way. I suggest that you watch the video to the end. Take notes. Practice. Then after you have done so, you will have the right to make comments about a lesson from a well informed and dedicated teacher of piano. Practice then speak!

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#2166713 - 10/15/13 04:06 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Randy Klein]
Info2011 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 35
Originally Posted By: Randy Klein
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with Michael Martinez' critique of Dave Frank's teaching. Dave Frank is not only a great player, but one of the finest teachers of this style of piano improvisation.


+1

I get a lot out of Dave's videos tutorial-wise. And it's also just good to see how it's all done.

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#2166775 - 10/15/13 06:05 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
RonL Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/10/12
Posts: 181
The left comping video is my favorite of the Frank series. I have seen it twice. I like the way it presents the different concepts.

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#2166911 - 10/15/13 11:25 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Info2011]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 742
Originally Posted By: Info2011
Originally Posted By: Randy Klein
I'm sorry, but I have to disagree strongly with Michael Martinez' critique of Dave Frank's teaching. Dave Frank is not only a great player, but one of the finest teachers of this style of piano improvisation.


+1

I get a lot out of Dave's videos tutorial-wise. And it's also just good to see how it's all done.

I think MM was critiquing the wrong video. I think he thought the video was called "15 ways to improve your improvised lines.

Maybe Dave's video should of been called "15 left hand concepts for solo piano," but like any video from an accomplished player such as Dave, we must be grateful that they're sharing their knowledge at all.
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#2167144 - 10/16/13 11:36 AM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Farmerjones Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 196
Loc: USA
73,497 hits to date plus all positives, speaks for itself.

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#2167196 - 10/16/13 01:07 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 414
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Randy Klein
It is true that the videos start from the point of a performance video, but why not? Musicians learn through imitation.

Well, then why even watch a video? Just pick up some albums and rewind them over and over at slow speed.
If you feel that you have learned to improvise from listening to his videos, then I would be curious to hear the result. Can you record a short video?
Quote:

Then after you have done so, you will have the right to make comments about a lesson from a well informed and dedicated teacher of piano.

My assessment is of his videos (from an instructional standpoint) is right on the mark as it stands.
Originally Posted By: 36251
I've had many great teachers but it appears most teachers sometimes hold back some of the most important elements.

Yes. They do this for two reasons:
1. so their paying students will keep coming back
2. because they don't want to reveal "secrets" that took them years to develop. Another way to put this is that the trick itself may be simple and readily explained, but nobody explained it to them, so why should they bother explaining it to anybody else.
Quote:

I'm not here to add to two experienced educators, but I feel like I could be a much different player if I could of had better teachers when I was a young boy.

Amen. Your experience is not isolated, unfortunately.
Originally Posted By: 36251

like any video from an accomplished player such as Dave, we must be grateful that they're sharing their knowledge at all.

Wow. I completely disagree. If the teaching isn't good, then there's no point. Have you actually learned anything from those videos? If so, I would like to hear it. And I mean hear it, as in: you record yourself improvising on concepts you've learned.
Originally Posted By: Farmerjones
73,497 hits to date plus all positives, speaks for itself.

Actually, no. It doesn't. I would bet 99.99% of those "positives" are solely reactions to the quality of the performance, not the learning process.

You guys need to separate your awe of the performance from what you are able to learn and take away from the videos. I'm not critiquing his performance, I'm critiquing his instructional ability. The main characteristic of his videos, is his RH improvised lines. This is what gives his performances their jazz sound. And this is the thing that he does not teach. Instead, he gives some simplistic hints and tips on rhythm and basslines.
I would challenge anybody on this forum who believes they have learned something substantial or important from these videos, to demonstrate it with their own youtube vid.


Edited by Michael Martinez (10/16/13 01:53 PM)
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2167219 - 10/16/13 01:53 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Michael Martinez]
Farmerjones Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 196
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez

Actually, no. It doesn't. I would bet 99.99% of those "positives" are solely reactions to the quality of the performance, not the learning process.


Actually, yes.
You're "betting" not actually reading the comments. Many actually learned from the video. Advanced aspects can be taught by example.

Everybody and their dog, teaches piano over the internet. Sometimes I feel like im actually the only one that does not. But one thing I do know is perception. When one coffee company started to knock another coffee company's product in their advertising campaign, they found sales of coffee went down for both companies. I personally, don't let my opinion pick my pocket.

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#2167222 - 10/16/13 01:58 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Farmerjones]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 414
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Farmerjones
Many actually learned from the video.

I would like to hear this demonstrated.
Quote:

Advanced aspects can be taught by example.

He doesn't teach advanced stuff. If he actually taught what he plays, then this would be a different conversation.
Quote:

Everybody and their dog, teaches piano over the internet.

And, most of them teach it very poorly.
Quote:

When one coffee company started to knock another coffee company's product in their advertising campaign, they found sales of coffee went down for both companies. I personally, don't let my opinion pick my pocket.

Not exactly sure what you're saying. Are you suggesting that one's opinions should not be expressed?
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2167228 - 10/16/13 02:19 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
dire tonic Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/17/11
Posts: 1281
Loc: uk south
Originally Posted By: Michael Martinez

I would challenge anybody on this forum who believes they have learned something substantial or important from these videos, to demonstrate it with their own youtube vid.


Then for the sake of balance let’s issue the same challenge to anyone who happens to have watched your recent videos. Let any one of them upload something to YT showing how they’re coping with your ‘method’.

While we’re at it, how about you showing what you can do with the standard ‘There will never be another you’. You purport to be an educator so it’s fair to ask what sort of results one can expect from your method; it goes without saying, you would be its finest exemplar, the proof of the pudding.

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#2167232 - 10/16/13 02:46 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Info2011 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/13/11
Posts: 35
Michael -

Clearly, you're passionate about the teaching aspect of jazz, so I'm sure you have a good sense of how to teach this stuff yourself.

Would love it if you could post some video tutorial(s). I feel I've benefited so far from things like Dave's and 7notemode's tutorials, but there's no doubt that I can use all the help I can get.

Thx.

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#2167233 - 10/16/13 02:48 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
The bass line video is one of the most useful jazz piano lesson on the web.
To say that Dave is a great player is an understatement, so say that he is weak as a teacher is ignorance, jealousy or both. Dave is one of the best teachers you'll ever run into. I've had many.

I've worked off of the bass line video and the 15 elements for hours. I can play a bass line on just about any tune. If someone asked me "Can you show me how to play a bass line". I'd say yes, go watch DF video and get grinding. There's simply no way I would lay it better.
Show me a video with solo piano techniques split the way that the 15 elements are described.

I was at Aebersold this year and many knew DF or knew of him. Dan Hearle commented how he's run into so many of his students and that they were great. Dan's a super nice guy btw.
If you happen to walk along the streets of NY alongside DF, you will run into people that stop and say, "Hey you're the guy from the youtube video. I love your stuff man".

Michael, let it slide man. Do your own bass line video, or whatever video. Let people love it and move on. You're not gonna get much love around here bashing. There's plenty of business for everyone. So just be cool.

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#2167235 - 10/16/13 02:50 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Info2011]
knotty Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/01/07
Posts: 2993
Loc: Bethesda, MD (Washington D.C)
Originally Posted By: Info2011
Michael -

Clearly, you're passionate about the teaching aspect of jazz, so I'm sure you have a good sense of how to teach this stuff yourself.

Would love it if you could post some video tutorial(s). I feel I've benefited so far from things like Dave's and 7notemode's tutorials, but there's no doubt that I can use all the help I can get.

Thx.


7notemode (tom) is another super nice dude who hangs around here sometimes. An awesome pianist who makes wonderful videos. I often recommend his videos alongside Dave's.

Those 2 should give me a cut on the crazy dough they're making via youtube...

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#2167251 - 10/16/13 03:29 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: knotty]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 742
Originally Posted By: knotty
Originally Posted By: Info2011
Michael -

Clearly, you're passionate about the teaching aspect of jazz, so I'm sure you have a good sense of how to teach this stuff yourself.

Would love it if you could post some video tutorial(s). I feel I've benefited so far from things like Dave's and 7notemode's tutorials, but there's no doubt that I can use all the help I can get.

Thx.


7notemode (tom) is another super nice dude who hangs around here sometimes. An awesome pianist who makes wonderful videos. I often recommend his videos alongside Dave's.

Those 2 should give me a cut on the crazy dough they're making via youtube...
both are great players but videos are not the "nuts and bolts" videos I really learn from. Not that I shouldn't transcribe them but I choose to transcribe the historical greats like Sonny Clark, Herbie, Red Garland, Tommy Flanagan, Barry Harris, etc.

I appreciate anyone who has figured it out to share their skill in any way.
_________________________
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#2167269 - 10/16/13 03:48 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: dire tonic]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 414
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: Info2011
Michael -
Would love it if you could post some video tutorial(s).

Certainly. The only video I've done so far teaching how to improvise on a particular tune, is not jazz, it's the Aha tune Take on Me: Take on Me

I welcome you (and others) to watch it, and upload your improvisations based on it. Unlike Mr. Frank's videos, I don't beat around the bush with nonsense like "Let the Spirit Guide you to the right notes." I laughed my @ss off when I heard that.

Originally Posted By: dire tonic

While we’re at it, how about you showing what you can do with the standard ‘There will never be another you’.


Certainly. I will do.

Likewise, how many of you guys are actually going to improvise something for us and post it here? Or are you all talk, and no action?


Edited by Michael Martinez (10/16/13 04:06 PM)
_________________________
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http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2167282 - 10/16/13 03:58 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: knotty]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 414
Loc: California
Originally Posted By: knotty
The bass line video is one of the most useful jazz piano lesson on the web.


I don't think I've seen this one. I'll check it out.

Quote:
Michael, let it slide man. Do your own bass line video, or whatever video. Let people love it and move on.


That's cool, man. I appreciate that

Quote:

You're not gonna get much love around here bashing.

Mmmmm, don't mistake criticism for bashing.
Quote:

There's plenty of business for everyone.

Teaching music is a labor of love for me. It's not my livelihood.


Edited by Michael Martinez (10/16/13 04:08 PM)
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2167438 - 10/16/13 10:50 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Rollin shoulders Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/16/11
Posts: 51
Loc: WNY
Michael Martinez- I see exactly where you're coming from. For the last few months I've pointed out the "forum spamming" Dave Frank does on this site.
(Oh look! An improvisation video! How cool!... Oh wait. It's Dave Frank again.)

Is he a highly respected player? It seems so.
Can he play piano? Sure.
Is there anything you can do about it? Simply put: No.

I've read your comments throughout this whole thread, and I completely agree with what you're saying.
Sadly, because we don't have 1,000+ posts on here, we don't have respective opinions like some others, so we eventually are unheard.

This is actually why I've stopped visiting the forums as much as I'd like to... It all comes down to post count.
... And then you have these guys like Dave Frank making up random names to techniques that are basically very similar to others (Rodeo = Alberti Bass much? maybe with one exception?... I rest my case.)

So I'll be the 1% here and fully support your opinion Michael. You did validly prove your point by quoting others.
I'm just glad I'm not the only one here who thinks Dave Frank's Posts are essentially self promotion and egotistical!
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#2167718 - 10/17/13 02:01 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
Michael Martinez Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/22/12
Posts: 414
Loc: California
Rolling shoulders -

I know there's a lot of people who feel the same way, but who are too timid to say anything. They feel like they don't have the right to critique someone who is an experienced performer. But the fact is, you have every right to criticize their teaching if you aren't learning anything from them. Dave Frank's videos do smack more of showcasing his talents rather than helping people learn to play jazz.



Edited by Michael Martinez (10/17/13 02:03 PM)
_________________________
Music Educator, Computer Engineer, avid reader of literature, enjoyer of the outdoors
http://www.michael--martinez.com/music/

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#2167809 - 10/17/13 05:55 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Michael Martinez]
RodScod.com Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/17/13
Posts: 5
Loc: Washington DC
I've seen some of the DF videos and frankly (get it), have learned much from them. I'll be sure and check out the mentioned videos in this thread.

Anyone can criticize and most fools do!!


Edited by RodScod.com (10/17/13 06:10 PM)

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#2167848 - 10/17/13 07:30 PM Re: rodeo LH [Re: Dfrankjazz]
36251 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/12/10
Posts: 742
I keep thinking that if a video is free then it's up to us to decide if we want to watch it. It can be called anything and do nothing to advance whatever it's about. Once we decide to watch it, maybe the whole thing, maybe just 10 seconds then we critiquing it. The only real thing then to do is either like it, in which case you might tell people about it OR think it s*cks and just move on to next one. There's no reason to let anyone know if you hate it unless you know person and want to [censored] on him. I guess there's also the chance you think it's stupid or funny and you want to become a comedian and share it with a cute one-liner.

Now if someone is trying to sell a DVD and promotes a video to advertise then I think it's important that people review it and be truthful.

I do wish that people selling their wares would do it in a specific place. I'm not a fan of reading a thread and finding out it's an info-mercial.

I think both main parties made mistakes in this. DF could of explained the technique without the link. I understand it made it easy, but it can be implied, by some, as promotion. The explanation approach, IMO, would of promoted, but in a more subtle way. MM didn't have to bring it in the gutter, but I do agree with some of points he made.

This thread also brings to light the risk that heavy weights can get themselves into by exposing their identity.
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