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My advice is that you need to be more specific - what exactly do you need? Are the schools you're looking at able to give you what you need? Do they have a good track record of helping others get the same thing? Is there a market for what you want to do? Do you know how to break into it? If you don't, can the faculty at the university help? Do they have the connections and practical experience?
And here's the trick - in music, you need to be able to figure a lot of those things out yourself. Unlike medicine or accounting or business or engineering, music programs do not offer a clear vocational path. Everybody in music is to some extent a self-made entrepreneur. A university can help you develop your skills, but a big part of making it in music is creating a market for those skills yourself.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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Although i don't agree with you cold cynical view of life i know what you are saying, but no more than because others have posted the same advice already...And there's no need for me to detail my entire biography, i asked for advice on university, not advice on how to live my life. I think you're being hard on boo1234. He was responding to things like the following in your initial post: I'm not really sure what to do with my life... so do you think i should go to university? ...So what do you think, should i bother? or should i go by way of another route? ... I earn my living from music but I don't think boo's view is cold and cynical at all, and I do think he was trying to be helpful and not patronising.
Du holde Kunst...
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The reality of the situation is that he'll be close to 30 when he earns his degree and is going to be in a lot of debt while trying to find a job in a field where the job market is very scare as it is even for highly trained and talented people. I think it makes more sense to get a steady paying job and to do music composition on the side as a hobby, when you take into account that the composition people at the schools he applied to said his compositions and theory skills were lacking.
People need to stop living in fantasy land where you can be what you want to be and should do what you love to do. It doesn't pay the bills. Okay, two things - money isn't everything in life, and there are ways to do this without going into debt. I think the reason many posters have recommended doing composition as a hobby is that the OP doesn't give the impression that he has studied music that much in the past. In your case, I'd guess you had been studying piano quite seriously for quite a long time by the time you graduated from high school.In other words, you were much better prepared. OTOH a former high school math student of mine was always very interested in music, especially composition. He studied biology in college and worked in a lab for quite a few years after college. Then he applied to Juiliard where I think(not really sure?)he may not have been accepted at first. He eventually got into Juilliard, got his PhD in composition there studying with John Corigliano, and now teaches at Juilliard. He seems to be very successful and has won numerous awards and commissions. You can read more about him here: http://raymondlustig.com/#/about/
Last edited by pianoloverus; 10/17/13 05:56 PM.
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...they told me my theory was too far behind and my compositions were too old fashioned. Well now, my theory's better as i study it a lot... Post a composition of yours and I'll tell you whether you need to work on your theory or not.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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...they told me my theory was too far behind and my compositions were too old fashioned. Well now, my theory's better as i study it a lot... Post a composition of yours and I'll tell you whether you need to work on your theory or not. haha no thanks, like i'd care for the self-professed music god's opinion.
All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
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Although i don't agree with you cold cynical view of life i know what you are saying, but no more than because others have posted the same advice already...And there's no need for me to detail my entire biography, i asked for advice on university, not advice on how to live my life. I think you're being hard on boo1234. He was responding to things like the following in your initial post: I'm not really sure what to do with my life... so do you think i should go to university? ...So what do you think, should i bother? or should i go by way of another route? ... I earn my living from music but I don't think boo's view is cold and cynical at all, and I do think he was trying to be helpful and not patronising. Perhaps I was a bit harsh and defensive. I apologise boo1234. Perhaps I shouldn't have asked for advice here. Just forget I ever said anything.
Last edited by TheHappyMoron; 10/17/13 06:23 PM.
All theory, dear friend, is grey, but the golden tree of life springs ever green.
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...they told me my theory was too far behind and my compositions were too old fashioned. Well now, my theory's better as i study it a lot... Post a composition of yours and I'll tell you whether you need to work on your theory or not. haha no thanks, like i'd care for the self-professed music god's opinion. (insert infinite string of question marks here) Self-professed music god? Are you feeling all right?
Regards,
Polyphonist
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...they told me my theory was too far behind and my compositions were too old fashioned. Well now, my theory's better as i study it a lot... Post a composition of yours and I'll tell you whether you need to work on your theory or not. haha no thanks, like i'd care for the self-professed music god's opinion. (insert infinite string of question marks here) Self-professed music god? Are you feeling all right? ...they told me my theory was too far behind and my compositions were too old fashioned. Well now, my theory's better as i study it a lot... Post a composition of yours and I'll tell you whether you need to work on your theory or not. haha no thanks, like i'd care for the self-professed music god's opinion. (insert infinite string of question marks here) Self-professed music god? Are you feeling all right? Clearly he has everything all figured out.
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Perhaps I shouldn't have asked for advice here. Just forget I ever said anything. I don't think there was anything wrong with asking your question. I hope you can make a satisfying choice.
Du holde Kunst...
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I think in a university environment you will learn things that you otherwise won't if you "do it yourself" or even just take lessons. You learn from your classes, your readings, further readings guided by self study, your profs, and especially your classmates (given that you get lucky and hang out with knowledgeable friends). The daily environment is quite different than when you're trying to learn things on your own and are not in school. That's my experience anyway. As for age, I think now is always the time - you will only get older, right?
"The eyes can mislead, the smile can lie, but the shoes always tell the truth."
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Must just quote some good advice from Whoopi Goldberg in the movie “In the Habit 2" (an absolute treat) ... when she says to a young student ... when you wake in the morning and the first thing you think about is “writing†... then you are a WRITER. If the first thing you think about is “music†... then you are a MUSICIAN.
The OP is clearly a musician and should plug away in spite of
Boo (hoo) saying “I think you are reaching the point where you are too old and need to seriously focus on earning money.†What a clown! ... life is not for making money but for having fun.
I like rada’s bit “Personally, I think you should always go with what you loveâ€
More boo (hoo) gloom and sackcloth “The reality of the situation is that he'll be close to 30 when he earns his degree and is going to be in a lot of debt while trying to find a job in a field where the job market is very scare as it is even for highly trained and talented people.â€
Rimsky-Korskov managed to compose masterpieces while doing duty on the bridge of a Russian clipper Almaz. ... Imagine a world without the dreamy blockbuster “Scheherazadeâ€!
As someone who spent 6 years qualifying as Architect at the University of Cape Town I might add that, the competitive nature of studying with students of the same age proved hugely motivational ... but that it was only in my 3rd year that I began to cotton on to the true imaginative capacity of an architect ... in being able to design in one’s head ... no need for a pencil and paper .
The OP mentioned that his compositions have a “jazz†flavour (for all the lame duck reactions of the professorial gang consulted) ... And that, perhaps the greatest song writer of them all was George Gershwin. (What wouldn’t I do for the royalties on just one of his hits “Summertimeâ€.)
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[...]And that, perhaps the greatest song writer of them all was George Gershwin. (What wouldn’t I do for the royalties on just one of his hits “Unforgettableâ€.)
Can you trust a man who can't get simple, verifiable facts right? George Gershwin didn't write "Unforgettable." It was written by Irving Gordon and published in 1951. Regards,
BruceD - - - - - Estonia 190
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"How the heck can we believe you"
Sorry BruceD old chap, I was getting ahead of myself ... my rot has been corrected to read "Summertime".
regards btb
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On a side note: we don't pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for education here in the UK The Royal Academy is £9k a year, 4 years thats £36k + living in London for 4 years (not exactly cheap). As someone who started at the Royal Academy when I was 29 if my experience is anything to go by then you will learn a lot. Whether that is good value for money or will give you what you want are not questions anyone can help you with.If I had my time again in todays financial situation I think I would be tempted to study privately with a couple of carefully picked people.
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The reality of the situation is that he'll be close to 30 when he earns his degree and is going to be in a lot of debt while trying to find a job in a field where the job market is very scare as it is even for highly trained and talented people. I think it makes more sense to get a steady paying job and to do music composition on the side as a hobby, when you take into account that the composition people at the schools he applied to said his compositions and theory skills were lacking.
People need to stop living in fantasy land where you can be what you want to be and should do what you love to do. It doesn't pay the bills. Simply the truth. However, most members here do not like these facts.
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Must just quote some good advice from Whoopi Goldberg in the movie “In the Habit 2" (an absolute treat) ... when she says to a young student ... when you wake in the morning and the first thing you think about is “writing†... then you are a WRITER. If the first thing you think about is “music†... then you are a MUSICIAN.
The OP is clearly a musician and should plug away in spite of
Boo (hoo) saying “I think you are reaching the point where you are too old and need to seriously focus on earning money.†What a clown! ... life is not for making money but for having fun.
I like rada’s bit “Personally, I think you should always go with what you loveâ€
More boo (hoo) gloom and sackcloth “The reality of the situation is that he'll be close to 30 when he earns his degree and is going to be in a lot of debt while trying to find a job in a field where the job market is very scare as it is even for highly trained and talented people.â€
Rimsky-Korskov managed to compose masterpieces while doing duty on the bridge of a Russian clipper Almaz. ... Imagine a world without the dreamy blockbuster “Scheherazadeâ€!
As someone who spent 6 years qualifying as Architect at the University of Cape Town I might add that, the competitive nature of studying with students of the same age proved hugely motivational ... but that it was only in my 3rd year that I began to cotton on to the true imaginative capacity of an architect ... in being able to design in one’s head ... no need for a pencil and paper .
The OP mentioned that his compositions have a “jazz†flavour (for all the lame duck reactions of the professorial gang consulted) ... And that, perhaps the greatest song writer of them all was George Gershwin. (What wouldn’t I do for the royalties on just one of his hits “Summertimeâ€.)
It is so interesting to notice that the majority of members here (or the most vocal members) are either, I'm just taking a guess: 1. Music hobbyists with a well-paid full time job. 2. Retired or near retirement music hobbyists. 3. Well established music teachers in their 60s. While the young professional musicians shed some light on how bad the profession actually is, and how bad the music job market is, they get either patronizing or criticizing replies. To the OP, since one member already said the truth about music as a profession, I am going to just say you should read his reply carefully and judge yourself.
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Another truth:
Lots of people make a living doing music. You have to be good, creative, and maybe even a little lucky, but people do it every day.
The main difference between going to college for music and going to college for medicine (or any other professional track) is that at the conclusion of a professional degree, there are jobs you can apply for. In music, you have to go out and create your own job.
Looking at the title of this thread, I'd put it like this:
Pros of university: good training, make connections Cons of university: it doesn't guarantee anything
The problem with threads like these is that the OP wants to skip to the end of his story to find out if he'll be okay. I have some friends to who went back to school late - a few have done quite well. One works as a church musician and recording engineer in NYC. Another teaches and works with an opera company and professional orchestra in Florida. I have other friends who haven't done as well - they ended up going back to school for something else entirely, or found desk jobs or work in sales, etc...
The OP needs to figure out how much he's willing to gamble. Obviously, the biases in this thread reflect people's own answers to that question. Those of us who have chosen music and have been successful or who didn't choose music and regret it a great deal think it's worth the gamble. Those who have found success and happiness doing other things think it's not worth the gamble.
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt) www.pianoped.comwww.youtube.com/user/UIPianoPed
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Everyone who's posted on this thread obviously would be giving opinions colored by their own experiences, or by that of others they know. Or maybe by what they've read.
In my own case, I have an acquaintance who won a scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music, and won several prizes while there, including an international piano competition. After engagements dried up, he decided he didn't want to become a teacher, changed tack and went back to university to study medicine. He's now a surgeon. He regretted ever going to the RAM, because he'd be a lot more successful as a surgeon now if he'd just kept music as a hobby, and he could have just satisfied his performing cravings by taking part in amateur competitions (he'd have had a good chance of winning them), once his medical career had become established. As it is, he is still looking for a consultant job, competing against other surgeons at the same level as him, but much younger. He has no time to play piano any more.
There's a wonderful Canadian ex-concert pianist, Naida Cole, who also changed career and is now pursuing a medical career. Her recordings of French music on Decca - Ravel's Gaspard & Miroirs, Fauré, Chabrier - are still among the best around.
I also know personally of a violinist who plays in a London orchestra as first violin. She supplements her income by teaching, doing sessional work (film music, backing for pop bands, musicals etc). She doesn't regret choosing music as her profession, but tells me that it's a precarious existence. She has to play a lot of music she dislikes (pop and some musicals), teach recalcitrant students, and has to pass an audition every three years to stay in the orchestra - competing against all the young, upcoming violinists fresh from youth orchestras and conservatoires. Many of them (like herself) had failed to attain a solo career, and decided to try for an orchestral job instead.
If music be the food of love, play on!
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I'm not really sure what to do with my life.
The first line of the initial post sums it up... Maybe it's not about "going back to school or not," at all! I should have learned by now that in some cases, investing effort in advice is pointless, because the person lacks the sense of direction needed to act on any advice. Sure enough, OP comes back later to say to "forget the whole thing." In my case, teacher has suggested going to school to study music (adding that there are no guarantees to employment), but obviously that would color my own answer. And as such, I am plotting to take my own advice to the OP, to go back to school.
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People need to stop living in fantasy land where you can be what you want to be and should do what you love to do. It doesn't pay the bills.
Simply the truth. However, most members here do not like these facts. What if you become "what you want to be" and "do what you love to do," and it pays the bills? (smirk) It does happen, you know. It's not fantasy land, it's the land of blood, sweat & tears sometimes.
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