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#2169115 - 10/20/13 08:32 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: Piano*Dad]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
In all fairness, I will say that I do use recordings as an aid, but I try to follow the basic path of working through the piece first myself. Much of what I learn these days I figure out on my own -- the two little parts of the Grieg Lyric Pieces recital, for instance. So I don't have the benefit of much instruction.

I chose my pieces by sight reading through a bunch of options. That helped me narrow the list. Then I listened to a recording of the pieces just to get a flavor … sort of like attending a recital, but one where I chose the works played. That helped me select the pieces I would learn.

Then I worked on the pieces for a while to get the structure down, and I paid really close attention to the composer's expressed wishes. But I'm not a professional musician, and I would not pretend to have mastered any particular musical genre well enough to know the material cold, so to speak. I'm also not Norwegian, so there is no folk memory and early schooling to help me "feel" the style!

So, like many in my position, after developing my initial ideas about the piece I then looked around for recordings to see ...

1) the range of tempi.

It was generally faster than I had thought, and that was a big help. I pushed the envelope to match the speed of the pros.

2) how people pedaled the works.

I heard very wet and very dry and punctuated versions. That was reassuring because the choice I had already made seemed very appropriate to me.

and lastly,

3) how people played certain very specific phrases.

I had already worked out my own view, but I was happy to make some adjustments when I heard others play passages that just sounded more convincing to me than what I had constructed.

I had no teacher helping me with these piece. I think I would have operated differently if I had been working with one. And in any case, I worked through the pieces first and added the recordings later.
That's perfectly reasonable and I often learn music that way. I think that when one listens to a recording is a relatively small point in the much bigger picture that you do listen to recordings.

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#2169120 - 10/20/13 08:47 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jazzyprof]
Piano*Dad Offline
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… and that may be one small point of disagreement. "When" and "how" one listens to recordings may be quite important, though the effects may vary by individual. I try to do as much of the heavy lifting on my own, early in the process. And I try to do that for the very reasons many have mentioned in this thread. But without benefit of high level professional instruction, I realize that there are insights to be gleaned from a careful listening.

In fact, I don't think anyone has argued that recordings are to be shunned as anathema. We're all part of a much larger musical world, after all. Why else would we throw bombs at each other over Lang Lang's sometimes outlandish interpretations, or Lisitsa's …. nope, not going there. grin
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#2169125 - 10/20/13 08:55 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: Piano*Dad]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
"When" and "how" one listens to recordings may be quite important, though the effects may vary by individual. I try to do as much of the heavy lifting on my own, early in the process. And I try to do that for the very reasons many have mentioned in this thread. But without benefit of high level professional instruction, I realize that there are insights to be gleaned from a careful listening.


I must say that you make far more use of recordings in your learning of a new piece than I ever would, despite my outspoken advocacy of its benefits grin.


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#2169133 - 10/20/13 09:11 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jazzyprof]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Ah, irony!
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#2169177 - 10/20/13 10:49 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: Morodiene]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: Morodiene
For me, there are some recordings I have loved over the years - Brendel's rendition Waldstein, Entremont's version of Pour le Piano, for instance. Since I've listened to them so much, it is difficult for me to separate in my mind the recordings I've heard from my own mental vision of the piece. Not impossible to do, but harder.



This is an excellent point.

A few years ago I decided to learn a piece that I had heard someone else play exactly once, around fifty years earlier. And, amazingly enough, that one hearing from fifty years ago was still floating around in my head when I started to work on the piece, interfering with my own work on the piece, and making it harder to get to where I was going with it.

I would much rather have started from "blank slate", but, OTOH, if I hadn't heard it that time, I might not have been interested in learning it - I don't know.

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#2169178 - 10/20/13 10:54 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: BDB]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: BDB
Remember that eventually you may want to play something that has not been recorded. Listening to recordings should not be a crutch.


One of the more disturbing things that comes up when this issue is discussed here is exactly this - judging from their posts, apparently many people here cannot even conceive of that possibility. It is yet another symptom of the death of what used to be thought of as "classical music", IMO.

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#2169182 - 10/20/13 11:08 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jazzyprof]
Piano*Dad Offline
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Well, these days the likelihood that a new piece will stay totally unrecorded for a substantial length of time is rather low. That may be why many people don't worry too much about ploughing new soil without the aid (or crutch) of someone else's version. But I take your point.
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#2169184 - 10/20/13 11:14 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: Piano*Dad]
Alan Lai Offline
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Originally Posted By: Piano*Dad
Well, these days the likelihood that a new piece will stay totally unrecorded for a substantial length of time is rather low. That may be why many people don't worry too much about ploughing new soil without the aid (or crutch) of someone else's version. But I take your point.


There are plenty of newly composed piano music stay unrecorded.

Your statement is more accurate when you change the word "unrecorded" to "unperformed".

When you record something and distribute it in a mass scale, it has to have commercial value, profitability. Most record labels that are capable of mass distribution aren't interested in newly composed piano music.

For the records sake, even Nikolai Kapustin's music aren't all recorded.

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#2169186 - 10/20/13 11:15 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: Pogorelich.]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.

But that wasn't my point. For sure, we will even subconsciously pick up various things after obsessive listening. Even small things, like a wrong rhythm, a crazy tempo, wrongly learned notes. Of course these things can be fixed, but sometimes it's very annoying and difficult.....


One does pick up stuff without knowing it. When I was a teenager, Samson Francois' recording of Ravel's G major concerto was on my turntable often. A bit later, in college, when I first got the score and learned the piece, I had little idea of how much of what I was doing was very much in line with his interpretation (I was aware of copying a few things, though, like the way he handled the trill at the end of the second movement). It was only many years later that I realized how strong and all-pervasive the influence of that recording had been on my playing.

In a way, that wasn't such a bad thing, because, being a rural kid from a fly-over state, I wasn't really sophisticated and experienced enough at that point to come up with very good interpretation on my own, I don't think. But still, I didn't listen to that recording for reference while I was actually working on the piece, either.

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#2169191 - 10/20/13 11:29 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jazzyprof]
Orange Soda King Offline
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I don't think we can really get by without having heard a good part of the rep we learn, especially the older we get and the more rep we get exposed to. Also, in this day and age, hearing recordings are just a couple clicks away from your computer, smart phone, tablet, as well as the more traditional means of listening to recordings.

However, I don't think it's really beneficial to ones musicianship to listen to recordings to help them learn the music/learn how a piece goes, or figure out how to do more artistic stuff. And yes, it does affect your subconscious, especially with how you treat certain nuances. Michelangeli influenced my Bach-Busoni Chaconne for a long time. Gilels for my Ravel Toccata. Zimerman with my Ravel Concerto in G. Took a while to work it out.

However, I had heard these pieces a good deal well before I learned them, and I couldn't have anticipated that I'd learn them a couple years later, so in that case, it's probably unavoidable to a degree.

I do think it's a good idea to listen to a variety of great recordings of great pianists playing various things, especially the rep they were most noted for. More importantly, I recommend listening to non-piano rep (or chamber music/songs with piano).

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#2169193 - 10/20/13 11:31 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jazzyprof]
jeffreyjones Offline
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I listen to recordings of music I'm working on quite routinely, but with a caveat - it's important to do it with the score to understand how what's on the page is different from what you're hearing. The fidelity of the recording destroys a lot of detail, as does the lack of scrupulousness on a part of many great pianists.

The one exception is that if I'm playing Chopin, I don't listen to any recordings at all. I play what I see, and the results are often dramatically different from the 'normal' interpretation, but they usually convince me.

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#2169196 - 10/20/13 11:34 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: pianoloverus]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
[...]I'd say that if one has to choose between a good teacher and recordings the teacher is always better. .


That's not the impression I got from what you wrote earlier in this thread :

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
"There is no significant difference between listening to a recording, or taking a lesson ..."


It appears that now you are saying there is a difference.
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#2169264 - 10/21/13 06:14 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: Orange Soda King]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Orange Soda King

I do think it's a good idea to listen to a variety of great recordings of great pianists playing various things, especially the rep they were most noted for. More importantly, I recommend listening to non-piano rep (or chamber music/songs with piano).

I learnt to play several Mozart piano sonatas before I'd heard any of his other music (and before I heard anyone else play them) - and I cringe when I listen to the results from those days. I had no idea how to 'sing' the slow movements. My new teacher at my new school recommended that I listen to a Mozart opera, or at least Mozart arias.

So, one afternoon, I went into the music room after school had finished, and looked through the LP collection there, found one of Mozart operatic arias, and put it on the turntable (students at school who were doing Music at 'O' or 'A' Level were allowed to use that room, and its record collection and music scores).
It changed my understanding of Mozart completely: I realized that I needed to sing and phrase a Mozart melody on the piano like an operatic singer, not like a pianist. (And I also fell in love with opera, which, until then, I'd never heard. And with classical vocal music. I joined the school Chapel Choir soon afterwards....).

Immediately afterwards, I went downstairs into one of the practice rooms, and played the Mozart Sonata I was then learning (K332) - filled with fresh new insight into the music. At my next lesson, my teacher was amazed at the transformation in my understanding, and my playing of the piece. And of course, from then on, whenever opera was on the radio, I'd make it my priority to listen to it - whether it was by Mozart or not.

I'm surprised that even with YouTube easily available to everyone today, there are still pianists playing Mozart who don't listen to his operatic music, concert arias or songs. And don't even know the tune of Dove sono.

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#2169274 - 10/21/13 07:14 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: wr]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: BDB
Remember that eventually you may want to play something that has not been recorded. Listening to recordings should not be a crutch.


One of the more disturbing things that comes up when this issue is discussed here is exactly this - judging from their posts, apparently many people here cannot even conceive of that possibility. It is yet another symptom of the death of what used to be thought of as "classical music", IMO.
Not at all. To me that's like saying that since we now have automobiles no one can conceive of walking a mile if necessary.

The whole use of the word "crutch" in BDB's post sets the wrong tone I think. For many people(I think the huge or even overwhelming majority including the most advanced players)listening to a recording is one of the many ways to learn about music or about a specific piece. No different from taking lessons, and I bet you don't think doing that's a crutch. No different from reading an essay about a piece of music or looking at some excellent editor's ideas about a piece in their edition.

If one decides to play a piece where there's no recording or prior listening experience then one does what's necessary under those circumstances. I don't think that means one should avoid listening to a recording if one's available any more than one should avoid using a car if one has several miles to travel.

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#2169277 - 10/21/13 07:20 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: bennevis]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: bennevis

I'm surprised that even with YouTube easily available to everyone today, there are still pianists playing Mozart who don't listen to his operatic music, concert arias or songs. And don't even know the tune of Dove sono.


Why should they?

I mean, there are a large number of fine piano recordings available of almost any given piano piece of Mozart's, so why would a pianist feel any need at all to hear any of the vocal music, which is not even the same music?

Just because listening to his vocal music improved your understanding (from your POV), doesn't mean that anyone else would have a similar experience. They may already get that aspect of his music, simply from hearing good performances.

Or they may not agree that that sort of transference of vocal to keyboard even matters.

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#2169278 - 10/21/13 07:27 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: BruceD]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
[...]I'd say that if one has to choose between a good teacher and recordings the teacher is always better. .


That's not the impression I got from what you wrote earlier in this thread :

Originally Posted By: pianoloverus
"There is no significant difference between listening to a recording, or taking a lesson ..."


It appears that now you are saying there is a difference.
In my second statement I was saying that taking lessons and listening to a recording are both valid ways of learning about music or about a specific piece one is study. In that way there is no significant difference. I think using an edition by a great editor also falls in that category. I was disagreeing with those that said listening to a recording was not valid.

Because listening to a recording requires the student to figure out everything by them self, I do think taking lessons from a good teacher is a more productive and easier way to learn about music. I had learned several Jarrett ballads before learning Be My Love. If I had been taking lessons from a good teacher they might have suggested beginning a phrase more emphatically long before I figured that out by listening to Jarrett's recording.

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#2169279 - 10/21/13 07:32 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jeffreyjones]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
I listen to recordings of music I'm working on quite routinely, but with a caveat - it's important to do it with the score to understand how what's on the page is different from what you're hearing. The fidelity of the recording destroys a lot of detail, as does the lack of scrupulousness on a part of many great pianists.

The one exception is that if I'm playing Chopin, I don't listen to any recordings at all. I play what I see, and the results are often dramatically different from the 'normal' interpretation, but they usually convince me.
Why do you choose to not listen for Chopin but listen for other composers?

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#2169280 - 10/21/13 07:33 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: wr]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: bennevis

I'm surprised that even with YouTube easily available to everyone today, there are still pianists playing Mozart who don't listen to his operatic music, concert arias or songs. And don't even know the tune of Dove sono.


Why should they?

I mean, there are a large number of fine piano recordings available of almost any given piano piece of Mozart's, so why would a pianist feel any need at all to hear any of the vocal music, which is not even the same music?

Just because listening to his vocal music improved your understanding (from your POV), doesn't mean that anyone else would have a similar experience. They may already get that aspect of his music, simply from hearing good performances.

Or they may not agree that that sort of transference of vocal to keyboard even matters.

Really???

Speak to Mitsuko Uchida, Murray Perahia, Alfred Brendel (or even Horowitz....) or any number of great Mozart pianists.
Whenever the subject of Mozart crops up in interviews with great pianists, they bring up the subject of his operas, and how important it is to to at least hear their arias sung by great singers to understand how operatic his instrumental music is. This is probably most evident in his piano concertos, but almost every Mozart slow movement in his piano sonatas is like an aria for piano.

And you don't think it's at all necessary??

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#2169287 - 10/21/13 07:51 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: bennevis]
wr Offline
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Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: bennevis

I'm surprised that even with YouTube easily available to everyone today, there are still pianists playing Mozart who don't listen to his operatic music, concert arias or songs. And don't even know the tune of Dove sono.


Why should they?

I mean, there are a large number of fine piano recordings available of almost any given piano piece of Mozart's, so why would a pianist feel any need at all to hear any of the vocal music, which is not even the same music?

Just because listening to his vocal music improved your understanding (from your POV), doesn't mean that anyone else would have a similar experience. They may already get that aspect of his music, simply from hearing good performances.

Or they may not agree that that sort of transference of vocal to keyboard even matters.

Really???

Speak to Mitsuko Uchida, Murray Perahia, Alfred Brendel (or even Horowitz....) or any number of great Mozart pianists.
Whenever the subject of Mozart crops up in interviews with great pianists, they bring up the subject of his operas, and how important it is to to at least hear their arias sung by great singers to understand how operatic his instrumental music is. This is probably most evident in his piano concertos, but almost every Mozart slow movement in his piano sonatas is like an aria for piano.

And you don't think it's at all necessary??


If it is necessary, it can't be very good piano music. Take your pick.

And yes, I'm quite aware that many excellent pianists reference his vocal music when they are talking about his piano music. If they have already done that, I shouldn't need to - all I should need is to hear them play.

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#2169393 - 10/21/13 10:44 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: wr]
BruceD Offline
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Originally Posted By: wr
[...]
And yes, I'm quite aware that many excellent pianists reference his [Mozart's] vocal music when they are talking about his piano music. If they have already done that, I shouldn't need to - all I should need is to hear them play.


It seems to me that you are missing the point!

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#2169446 - 10/21/13 11:53 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jazzyprof]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Pianoloverus, I'm just extremely confused why you think there is no significant difference between listening to a recording and a lesson. That is just not true. A recording would have never taught me how to produce a big, rich and effortless sound or how to practice specific passages etc etc etc.
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#2169473 - 10/21/13 12:24 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: wr]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: bennevis

I'm surprised that even with YouTube easily available to everyone today, there are still pianists playing Mozart who don't listen to his operatic music, concert arias or songs. And don't even know the tune of Dove sono.


Why should they?

I mean, there are a large number of fine piano recordings available of almost any given piano piece of Mozart's, so why would a pianist feel any need at all to hear any of the vocal music, which is not even the same music?

Just because listening to his vocal music improved your understanding (from your POV), doesn't mean that anyone else would have a similar experience. They may already get that aspect of his music, simply from hearing good performances.

Or they may not agree that that sort of transference of vocal to keyboard even matters.


Could this be sarcasm at its best?
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#2169520 - 10/21/13 01:48 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: Pogorelich.]
pianoloverus Online   content
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Pianoloverus, I'm just extremely confused why you think there is no significant difference between listening to a recording and a lesson. That is just not true. A recording would have never taught me how to produce a big, rich and effortless sound or how to practice specific passages etc etc etc.
There is no significant difference in the sense one can learn a great deal from each. That is how I have used "significant difference" throughout this thread. I even gave a very specific example from my own playing.


Edited by pianoloverus (10/21/13 01:51 PM)

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#2169544 - 10/21/13 02:32 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jazzyprof]
Pogorelich. Offline
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Well, I don't know. I certainly have learned a lot from orchestral recordings or watching concerts, but it's a very different kind of learning.

If I had the choice, I would much rather have a lesson with my teacher..
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#2169691 - 10/21/13 06:26 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jazzyprof]
Louis Podesta Offline
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Okay, now the Aspy is going to weigh in.

First, my late teacher taught all of his students to listen to multiple recordings of every piece they were working on. He did this because, unlike Dr. Mark C., not every person has the Rachmaninoff luxury of being able to listen to a ton of great pianists in concert. (It really wasn't a luxury, it was the only way they had prior to recordings)

Second, when my teacher instructed us to listen to recordings, and also films of Rubinstein, Horowitz, and Arrau, he always said to look for any little trick of the trade they we could pick up from these great artists.

Accordingly, the first thing I noticed was that, as different as these gentleman were in terms of style, they all sat very still, and were very body-centered with little or not facial emotion. They were all zoned-in to their music.

If I had not been taught how to critically listen, and sometimes watch, I would have never picked up on the arpeggiation, et al, of the old recordings. This in turn led me to the discovery of the original style of 19th century performance, which I recently have been able to prove started in the 17th century, even before the classical period. (Mark C.!)

When I listen to Radu Lupu play the the Brahms Intermezzo Op. 118 No. 2, I listen for what he does that I like that I could possible adapt to my performance. The complete performance of whatever I listen to, and now watch on You Tube, is very rarely the totality of my experience.

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#2169727 - 10/21/13 07:36 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: Pogorelich.]
wr Offline
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Registered: 11/23/07
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Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.


Could this be sarcasm at its best?


No, it's not sarcasm - I just haven't got that vocal fetish thing going that so many pianists do. Although I love listening to classical music that doesn't involve the piano, it's rarely going to be vocal music. I've got many hundreds of classical LPs and CDs, but I would guess that less than 1% of my collection is vocal. And of that, much is choral, not solo.

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#2169742 - 10/21/13 08:13 PM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: wr]
bennevis Online   content
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Originally Posted By: wr
I just haven't got that vocal fetish thing going that so many pianists do. Although I love listening to classical music that doesn't involve the piano, it's rarely going to be vocal music. I've got many hundreds of classical LPs and CDs, but I would guess that less than 1% of my collection is vocal. And of that, much is choral, not solo.


I've got several fetishes, but vocal music isn't one of them wink .

For instance, Verdi operas are mostly a closed book to me. And Wagnerian Heldentenors shouting out inconsequentials, and sopranos screeching at indeterminate pitch with their wobbly vibratos do nothing for me - give me the 'bleeding chunks' or Maazel's "The Ring without Words" any time.

But the sublimity of Soave sia il vento, the nobility of O, Isis und Osiris, the beauty & simplicity of O mio babbino caro, the sincerity and latent tragedy of Un bel di, vedremo - in fact, the three Mozart/Da Ponte operas and Die Zauberflöte, and the big operas of Puccini are all essential parts of my musical diet, and give me certain aspects of music that aren't to be found in any piano music. Not to mention the Lieder of Schubert which encapsulates his humanity in all his glory (and how can anyone claim to know Schubert without having heard Winterreise and Die schöne Mullerin?), and the profundity of predominantly choral religious works like Palestrina's masses, Handel's Messiah, Mendelssohn's Elijah, and Mozart's, Verdi's and Fauré's Requiems. And so much else.

No doubt, my musical tastes are colored my my having spent some of my happiest music-making times singing as a chorister in my school choir. There is something about the human voice that transcends mere music-making....

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#2169831 - 10/22/13 12:31 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: wr]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: wr
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.


Could this be sarcasm at its best?


No, it's not sarcasm - I just haven't got that vocal fetish thing going that so many pianists do. Although I love listening to classical music that doesn't involve the piano, it's rarely going to be vocal music. I've got many hundreds of classical LPs and CDs, but I would guess that less than 1% of my collection is vocal. And of that, much is choral, not solo.


I get what you're saying (although we can learn a great deal from singers...........), but I would really suggest if you are playing Mozart to listen to his operas.. different world than the art song, for sure =)
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2169836 - 10/22/13 12:48 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: jazzyprof]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4763
Loc: USA
I can understand both sides here. If a painter wants to become good at landscapes, he could greatly benefit from actually going to beautiful places, but at the same time, he could learn everything he needs to by being educated and by studying the works of other painters. So, the real thing isn't a necessity but it could definitely benefit the painter to experience it.

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#2169862 - 10/22/13 02:15 AM Re: Why listening to recordings is good when learning a piece [Re: JoelW]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17963
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: JoelW
I can understand both sides here. If a painter wants to become good at landscapes, he could greatly benefit from actually going to beautiful places, but at the same time, he could learn everything he needs to by being educated and by studying the works of other painters. So, the real thing isn't a necessity but it could definitely benefit the painter to experience it.


I'll have to disagree with you on this analogy. A great artist painting a scene is not only copying what he sees at a given moment, he is absorbing into his artistic persona the mood, the atmosphere and even the sounds he hears as he paints. His painting is an amalgam of all that has touched his senses and the result is not a "photograph" of what he saw at a given moment in time but an impression of all that he saw, felt, lived and reacted to during the creative experience.

Studying and copying works of artists is removing oneself from the total experience and can only result in poorer art, accurately rendered, perhaps, but without feeling.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
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Estonia 190

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