Piano World Home Page Forums Our Most Popular Forums Digital Pianos - Electronic Pianos - Synths & Keyboards Comparison of Portable Digital Pianos under 1000 US$

Quite a few people here seem to like so-called 'clear' sounds produced by DPs with poor sustain and no (or hardly any) sympathetic resonances - which you won't find on any acoustic piano. And criticize the 'muddy' sounds of the DPs that make some effort to emulate the real thing. Just like they criticize the DPs that include acoustic 'artefacts' in the key action.

In the end, it all boils down to - are you purely interested in playing DPs (or just your own DP)? Or do you want to play real pianos as well?

Those who tend to like these 'clear' sounds are, I fear, often misled by a misunderstanding. Not satisfied by the sounds of digitals they think (mistakenly) that artifacts of real pianos such as sympathetic resonances, hammer noises, etc. are the reason for their dislike. In most cases, I think, the opposite is the case: Looped and stretched samples, fake harmonic spectra, i.e. the artifacts of the *digital* world are responsible for unsatisfactory sounds.

So I'd ask: Rather than wanting to play on the real thing, do you actually prefer listening to real pianos? Even under that premise you will like DP's better that emulate as much of the complex sound of acoustic pianos as possible. Whether sampled or modeled.

PS re sympathetic resonances: Don't forget the duplex scale present in many pianos - even more undamped resonances in the mix...

Do you have a reference for that? I have never heard that it was a mechanical limitation, but it was deemed unnecessary as the strings naturally do not sustain enough to interfere with other playing when undamped. I did a bit of googling and did not find any reference to your explanation. I don't think that undamped top strings affect the overall sound much, though. (Except when actually striking those notes, of course.)

They do. Subtly so, but they change the overtones of mid-range keys quite noticeably. I am sure it's a welcome effect for many piano designs.

I see the undamped upper strings as something of a win-win for everyone:

1. It reduces the moving part count.

2. It gives players / listeners natural sympathetic resonance of a type likely more in-tune and predictable than the duplex scale variety.


My feeling it that it's somewhere in-between. Looping, stretching, etc. bring the sound to its knees. Poor / missing sympathetic resonances deliver the death blow. Perhaps I've listened to too many of them, but I've grown to very much dislike the incredibly fake "clear" sound of most DPs. Sticks out like (and about as desirable as) a sore thumb.

IMO APs are well engineered musical instruments, with good reasons for the multiple strings per key and the presence / lack of damping.

That's exactly what I meant.

And by the way, yes the duplex scale can create more problems than it solves unless very carefully designed. On my grand I have selectively damped parts of the duplex scale with a felt band for that reason...

About resonance, I agree with all of you say. Who knows if we ever will see that feature (for real, not only on paper) on digital pianos under 1000 US$. Hard shot, but worth mentioning on the list that no digital piano have it for two reasons: to make clear the damper resonance is not really what most people might think (string resonance). The other reason is like one user mention, I plan eventually include more expensive models, that they might have string resonance. Under 1000 US$ is only entry models. Would be useful include more realistic digital pianos, that obviously are a lot over 1000 US$. For now, I start with 1000 US$ limit because... well... because is the start. Let's see how we do. But I need all of you to keep helping me on this.

About key fulcrum, Casio PX-350 looks average for cheap DP. Less than half compared to real pianos. I would say is too much difference. I think 10mm, 3mm should be the minimum.

Thanks charles. You are not at all hijack this thread. All feedback is very welcome.

About upper keys don't having dampers, I think is for musical reasons, not technical limitations. I think the main reasons is just "it doesn't need to have dampers". Plus maybe add the resonance of those strings all the time.

I don't know if some people prefer artificial advantages from digital pianos, but on this thread I will focus on "pianos simulator" so anything that simulate a acoustic piano is good in my opinion.

Anyone with a Yamaha P-105 and FC3 pedal? Can you test half pedal if is continuous?

Casio PX-5S appears to offer both kinds of sympathetic resonance, and defines them with this terminology:

String Resonance: Generates resonance for the strings of keys being pressed

Damper Resonance: Generates string resonance when the damper pedal is pressed

and it's under $1000. But it doesn't include speakers.

I doubt it, even when they say it. Can you provide a sample to the The DPBSD Project? Here: The DPBSD Project

I tried px 5s in GC. It has string resonance. Press keys down w/o making sound and press another key and release, the down keys will be stimulated and make sound.

The bad thing about it is the pedal can only be on off.

Why would you doubt the Casio has these features, when they are specifically listed in the manual, with parameters for adjusting them? Maybe you can doubt the quality of the implementation or something, which you wouldn't know from a spec sheet, but that's true of lots of what you're comparing. I see no reason to doubt it has the feature, though, if you're just compiling a feature list.


Dewster is on hiatus from DPBSD evals. But an interesting debate might prompt the analyst in him out of hibernation. ;-)


Why unrealistic? Both of these phenomenon exist on real acoustic pianos... you get certain sympathetic vibrations with the pedal up (i.e. only those from other depressed keys), and other sympathetic vibrations with the pedal down. While it is certainly possible that a manufacturer can implement an effect in an unrealistic way, there's nothing inherently unrealistic about either kind of resonance. Probably either effect can be implemented well, and either effect can be implemented poorly!


Why irrelevant, if it adds an element of authenticity to the sound that doesn't exist on models without it? Though again, I'm not saying that simply having the feature on a spec sheet means that it is done well, or that all models that have it sound equally realistic in this respect.

Really, of the two kinds of sympathetic resonances, I would say that the presence of the pedal-down variation would be what you would notice more often. But I guess that depends on your repertoire, whether you play more often with pedal or without.

Getting back to the limitations of a checkmark on a feature list... as has been discussed before, polyphony isn't simply a number either, as voice stealing algorithms alter its effectiveness. I reported a while back that I found a passage that I could play with no audible dropped notes on a model with 32 polyphony, that yielded audible dropped notes on another model with 64! That would have been something else interesting to try to get into the DPBSD test.

Scott is definitely one of the smartest chaps on PW!

James
x

Indeed. But this thread is in danger of becoming 'Daniel Richter's comparison of digital pianos under $1000' with many subjective statements in the original post, and thereon. Nothing wrong with that, but not for me then, and it does devalue the usefulness of the thread, IMHO.

Thanks, guys!

Good for casio then. Happy to know PX-5S have string resonance. Can't tell how good is that resonance because there is no sample yet, but definitely for what you say looks promising (decent). Although that model don't have speakers so for now I can't add it. You think i should include DP that don't have speakers? Maybe I should. I choice add only models with speakers for two reasons: to make my work here easier, especially for the start (the less models the less to worry). 2nd is that the digital pianos with no speakers are more "stage pianos". But anyway, if you guys think is better add DP with no speakers, I will.

I consider that effect important. What i don't consider important is a effect that is not notable nor realistic, like "damper resonance" that many models have but don't really sound realistic.

But anyway, we go far from subject. There is 2 casio's models in the list. Would be great giving me any feedback to fix something about them or a suggestion, opinion, etc. I will consider everything any of you say. I mean, I definitely don't want this thread be the 'Daniel Richter's comparison of digital pianos under $1000' like spanishbuddha say. Not at all. I am open to change anything here. Especially those subjected things. I want to reflect majority opinions about the subjective things, and also add what the minority say if necessary.

Have something I say on the comparison you don't agree, please tell me.

Thanks.

Hi Daniel,

If speakers are important to you, you might be disappointed with Casio. I have the PX350 and I love everything about it except for the speakers. Nice to have in a pinch but I wish the PX350 did not have them and drop the price a $100. I cant even begin to explain how bad they really are. I actually think my iPad speaker sounds better - not kidding. The sound through the speakers completely takes away everything this beautiful rich sounding digital piano has to offer. I knew this going in so I am ok about it only because I use a very good pair of headphone 99% of the time to practice when I travel. Also, I would use an amp or PA if I to entertain in a live situation. But if speakers were my priority I would have gone with the Yamaha P105 and sacrifice just a little on the sound and action.
If the Casio PX350 had good speakers, I cant imagine any other choice even coming close in that price range.
Maybe the next PX series will resolve this issue.


Edit: This is just my opinion. Please, many others might vehemently disagree with me. It's what you like is all that matters


Ash

Personally I don't find built-in speakers that important. But is my personal opinion, not relevant about the general discussion of this thread.

When I choice a digital piano, last thing on my mind is how good the speakers are. But maybe is because I just don't use them very much, like you. I prefer headphones and external amps.

For what you tell me, Casio PX-350 was really a good choice. Casio PX-150 speakers are even worst.

Enjoy your DP.

In my opinion there was VERY little difference in sound between the PX150 and 350. There both so bad you cant tell the difference. However, you put on some good headphones and both pianos sound fantastic. I have a very high end digital piano for my primary use and Casio is not too far off from sounding as good.

If we had to do it over again we would probably go with the PX5S. Yes, more features than we need but does it all and then some. Almost seems obsolete proof - kinda like a Nord but with better action and $$2000 cheaper

I want to hear and play the ES100 more than anything at the moment. Love Kawai... cant help what my ears tell me.

Would like to add to this discussion, that I have the PX-5S and like it very much, at least through my Sennheiser HD380 Pro headphones. I had Yamaha P85 before and I don't understand why the P85 sounded better through it's internal 6W speakers, than the PX-5S sounds through the bigger 16W Creative standalone T40 speakers.

Is it a question of the right settings? You can play with the PX-5S to set the sounds to whatever you like (almost) but there is a learning curve.

I had some T10 speakers (14W each side I think) and my DGX sounded fine through them as well as through it`s own speakers. Pianoteq did not . . . ! Even cheap headphones sound fine with both of `em . .