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#2170284 - 10/22/13 08:57 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5265
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies and Symphonic Dances are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)? And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?

And Rachmaninov's 'The Bells' is much better than Liszt's Christus?

Need I say more?

Or am I just 'confused', because Brendel (and you) says so? wink
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2170289 - 10/22/13 09:07 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Valencia Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/06/11
Posts: 250
Happy Birthday to Liszt! smile Hopefully one day I'll be able to play one of his pieces.

For now, here is Valentina playing Totentanz, which seems a perfect piece for honouring his 202 birthday:


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#2170290 - 10/22/13 09:08 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]
Damon Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/22/06
Posts: 6167
Loc: St. Louis area
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are

sentimental tripe.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Need I say more?


Say less.
_________________________
It's been scientifically proven that Horowitz sucks.

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#2170293 - 10/22/13 09:15 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Damon]
bennevis Offline
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 5265
Originally Posted By: Damon
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are

sentimental tripe.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

Need I say more?


Say less.

No, I'll say more.

Rachmaninov's chamber music (especially his cello sonata) is far better than any of Liszt's.
And his songs are far better than any of Liszt's.

I think that just about covers everything....

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).
_________________________
"I don't play accurately - anyone can play accurately - but I play with wonderful expression. As far as the piano is concerned, sentiment is my forte. I keep science for Life."

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#2170310 - 10/22/13 09:51 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: bennevis
Originally Posted By: argerichfan

I find it inexplicably astounding that anyone could rate Rachmaninov a greater composer than Liszt. Rachmaninov had his limited bag of tricks which he expertly manipulated and recyled, but Liszt was always on to something new, throwing his compositional spear into new realms, and continually reinventing himself.

Why is it that so many PW members confuse talent with genius?

Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)? And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?

I wouldn't go so far as "immeasurably greater," but it's true that Liszt never wrote an orchestral work as great as Rachmaninoff's 2nd Symphony, and his concertos cannot compare with Rach's 2nd and 3rd.

Now let's see Jason argue the superiority of the vapid Liszt 1st concerto over the Rach 3rd.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170321 - 10/22/13 10:11 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
argerichfan Offline
8000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/15/06
Posts: 8903
Loc: Pacific Northwest, US.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

Now let's see Jason argue the superiority of the vapid Liszt 1st concerto over the Rach 3rd.

But I thought it was the other was around.

The Liszt Eb is a marvelously inventive work, nothing like it had ever been written before, totally original and miraculously spontaneous.

That alone would put it above Rachmaninov 3, which is none of those.

You're not going to win this, Poly. wink
_________________________
Jason

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#2170322 - 10/22/13 10:15 PM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: argerichfan]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: argerichfan
The Liszt Eb is a marvelously inventive work, nothing like it had ever been written before, totally original and miraculously spontaneous.

That alone would put it above Rachmaninov 3, which is none of those.

It is definitely inventive and spontaneous. The Liszt is mostly an empty technical display.
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Polyphonist

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#2170366 - 10/23/13 12:20 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 605
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist

However, what I will say is that Chopin surpassed them both.



shocked

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Maybe because Rachmaninov's three symphonies are far greater works than any of Liszt's (including his symphonic poems)?


shocked

Originally Posted By: bennevis
And Rachmaninov's 'The Bells' is much better than Liszt's Christus?


shocked shocked shocked WHAT. I'd take Christus based on the Stabat Mater Dolorosa alone.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
And that Rachmaninov's concertante works for piano and orchestra are immeasurably greater than any of Liszt's?


His 2nd and 3rd PC's, yes (3rd is one of my favourite pieces of music, and I love the 2nd although I prefer Liszt's 2nd). For me, Totentanz > Paganini. I like Rachmaninoff's 1st and 4th about as much as I like Liszt's lesser pieces for p&o: De Profundis, Malediction, PC 3, and less than PC #1.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
Rachmaninov's chamber music (especially his cello sonata) is far better than any of Liszt's.


True.

Originally Posted By: bennevis
And his songs are far better than any of Liszt's.


shocked

For me:

Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Liszt was a far greater innovator. Liszt wins grin

Of course, this is all meaningless and subjective.

I don't mean to denigrate Rachmaninoff: indeed, he is one of my favourite composers. The 3rd PC and the Isle of the Dead are two of my favourite works in their respective genres.




Edited by pianojosh23 (10/23/13 12:28 AM)

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#2170371 - 10/23/13 12:30 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Your solo piano rating for Liszt is way too high (you can't just base it on one piece), and your piano/orchestra rating for Rach is way too low. And Rach wins for orchestra.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170378 - 10/23/13 12:38 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: bennevis]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...
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'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2170381 - 10/23/13 12:41 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 605
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
Solo piano: Liszt >>>>>>>>>>>>> Rach.
Orchestra: Tie.
Choral: Tie.
Song: Liszt > Rach.
Chamber Rach >>>>>> Liszt.
Piano/Orc: Rach >>> Liszt.
Organ: Liszt >>>>>> Rach.

Your solo piano rating for Liszt is way too high (you can't just base it on one piece), and your piano/orchestra rating for Rach is way too low. And Rach wins for orchestra.


You think I'm basing it on just one piece? I do think there is nothing Rachmaninoff wrote for the piano that is as good as the Sonata, but I also put Liszt's Annees, Harmonies Poetiques, and Etudes ahead of Rach's Preludes and Etudes. I would take Liszt's Weinen Klagen variations over the Corelli's AND the Chopin. Also, there is Liszt's incredible work as an arranger and the fact that he just wrote more good music for the instrument...his achievement is far broader and his music has more versatility.

As for orchestra, I wouldn't put Rach 2 above Liszt's Faust, nor would I put Rach 1 or 3 ahead of the Dante. I see the Isle of the Dead as being as good as the best of Liszt's tone poems -if not better- but Liszt just wrote far more good music. You wouldn't put The Rock ahead of Tasso, Orpheus, Les Preludes, Huns, Heroide Funebre, midnight procession, etc would you?

As for piano and orchestra, I do think Rachmaninoff's achievements are more significant and deserve the nod by the margin I suggested, but Liszt's works are great for what they strive to be. They are very inventive, beautiful, and well constructed within their framework.

Again, though: all I am writing can only really be put down to what I like better. Heaps of people see it the opposite to me, and I am no more right than them.

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#2170382 - 10/23/13 12:41 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
You cannot compare them, they are too different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

just STOP!
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2170387 - 10/23/13 12:46 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 605
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
You cannot compare them, they are too different!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



There's that, too. Really all I have said is that I prefer Liszt and his style better, and I am biased. grin

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#2170391 - 10/23/13 12:55 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
pianojosh23 Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/08
Posts: 605
Anyway back to the point of the thread: Happy birthday Liszt, the composer who has given me more than any other.

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#2170392 - 10/23/13 12:55 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Michael Sayers]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Haha, I didn't just mean you.. I meant the whole lot of them!!!

I love both, but of course Rachmaninov is my one and only. But, I have played tons of Liszt, so you cannot judge me (and yes, including the sonata).
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2170395 - 10/23/13 01:06 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170396 - 10/23/13 01:09 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: pianojosh23]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: pianojosh23
As for orchestra, I wouldn't put Rach 2 above Liszt's Faust, nor would I put Rach 1 or 3 ahead of the Dante.

Huh? I was separating concertos and orchestral works - so the Rach Opus 27 goes up against the Faust, and wins by a large margin. Opus 30 goes up against either Liszt concerto, and there is no contest there either.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2170401 - 10/23/13 01:34 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Polyphonist]
Pogorelich. Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/08
Posts: 4528
Loc: in the past
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.


Yeah, maybe, whatever... I still like the 1st sonata more than anything. But I do think the b minor is a complete genius.
_________________________

'I want to invest my emotions only in music; it will never disappoint me or hurt me - it is a safe place to be.'

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#2170402 - 10/23/13 01:37 AM Re: Liszt's birthday on October 22, 2013 [Re: Pogorelich.]
Polyphonist Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Pogorelich.
Originally Posted By: bennevis

(But I'll concede that Liszt's B minor Sonata is better than any of Rachmaninov's piano works grin).


ummmmm??????????????????????????????????????

haha no...

Yes, it is. Even I agree, and I am a huge advocate of Rachmaninoff, as you know.

And the greatest Romantic piano work was written by neither of them.


Yeah, maybe, whatever... I still like the 1st sonata more than anything. But I do think the b minor is a complete genius.

At least we have that straight. grin
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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