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#217075 - 02/05/09 06:34 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Clockwiser,

The only Uk dealer I know who sells Estonai is Besbrode pianos in Leeds:

http://www.besbrodepianos.co.uk/showroom/showroom353.htm ; this is a real bargain; probably closing out of a stock piano.

 Quote:
It really depends on how much the Estonias are selling for these days, because the more they raise their prices the more competition they have
Typical new MRSPs in Europe are:
168: € 20500,- and 190: € 25400,-
Discounts are at the discretion of the dealer but far less than in the US were then the MRSP is higher.
Price increase were rather moderate over the past two years (max. 3% typical)

On the European continent you will find only few dealers too. I know of a couple in Germany and one in Belgium.

Would importing a 190 from Belgium be an option, I know of a really favourable priced new stock clearance instrument. If interested send me a PM.

schwammerl.

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#217076 - 02/06/09 02:35 AM Re: Estonia grand piano
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
One thing we have observed for a long time with Estonia is that it 'clicks' with people either real fast - or it doesn't click at all.

Despite the emergence of quite incredible pianos coming from China these days - I'm thinking of the 7' variety of new grands by Hailun and Brodmann here - someone in our store just played a new 5'6 Estonia and was completely taken by it.

This was a person *only* interested in about 7' grands or larger...

One of our most recent customers for a 190 Estonia returned a brand new Steinway B he had just purchased a short while before.

Others have preferred it to Fazioli and some of our own top German brands.

Estonia doesn't seem to need a *reason* or justification - it seems to be found and adopted by players as if an inner clock was ticking between them in almost pre-arranged syncrony...

To be honest, this sometimes happens without any obvious "reason" and has often taken us by complete surprise.

Could it be that this is one piano that chooses its new owner as much as it is being chosen itself?

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#217077 - 02/06/09 03:20 AM Re: Estonia grand piano
whippen boy Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/02/05
Posts: 3886
Loc: San Francisco
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Estonia doesn't seem to need a *reason* or justification - it seems to be found and adopted by players as if an inner clock was ticking between them in almost pre-arranged syncrony...


 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Could it be that this is one piano that chooses its new owner as much as it is being chosen itself?
Norbert, have you ever considered writing science fiction? \:D
_________________________
Grotrian 225
S&S Hamburg-C
M&H "A" at home

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#217078 - 02/06/09 03:57 AM Re: Estonia grand piano
apple* Offline


Registered: 01/01/03
Posts: 19862
Loc: Kansas
they have a unique resonance .. it sounds for a while longer yet is very manipulatible. i sure like it..
_________________________
accompanist/organist.. a non-MTNA teacher to a few

love and peace, Õun (apple in Estonian)

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#217079 - 02/06/09 06:44 AM Re: Estonia grand piano
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
One thing we have observed for a long time with Estonia is that it 'clicks' with people either real fast - or it doesn't click at all.

Despite the emergence of quite incredible pianos coming from China these days - I'm thinking of the 7' variety of new grands by Hailun and Brodmann here - someone in our store just played a new 5'6 Estonia and was completely taken by it.

This was a person *only* interested in about 7' grands or larger...

One of our most recent customers for a 190 Estonia returned a brand new Steinway B he had just purchased a short while before.

Others have preferred it to Fazioli and some of our own top German brands.

Estonia doesn't seem to need a *reason* or justification - it seems to be found and adopted by players as if an inner clock was ticking between them in almost pre-arranged syncrony...

To be honest, this sometimes happens without any obvious "reason" and has often taken us by complete surprise.

Could it be that this is one piano that chooses its new owner as much as it is being chosen itself?

Norbert [/b]
Dealer hype.

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#217080 - 02/06/09 11:54 AM Re: Estonia grand piano
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
Dealer hype.
That would be an easy explanation.

But the countless new owners of this piano could not all have been complete idiots and my own magic and imagination in this business only goes so far.

As opposed to yours.....

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#217081 - 02/06/09 12:00 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
 Quote:
Dealer hype.
That would be an easy explanation.

But the countless new owners of this piano could not all have been complete idiots and my own magic and imagination in this business only goes so far.

As opposed to yours.....

Norbert [/b]
My comment has nothing to do with my opinion of the quality of Estonias(or the Hailuns or Brodmans you mention although they are not the topic of this thread). I happen to like Estonias a lot. My post is about the appropriateness of your post.

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#217082 - 02/06/09 12:59 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
My post is about the appropriateness of your post.
That is a bit the weirdness of this forum.

If a non-dealer member, after having played pianos A, B and C, testifies he prefers A to B and certainly to C, then this is appreciated as an interesting comment.

If however a dealer testifies of some customers who preferred A to B and to C, then this is seen as nonsense and hype.

Who is able to prove that one is more reliable than the other?

schwammerl.

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#217083 - 02/06/09 01:31 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by schwammerl:
 Quote:
My post is about the appropriateness of your post.
That is a bit the weirdness of this forum.

If a non-dealer member, after having played pianos A, B and C, testifies he prefers A to B and certainly to C, then this is appreciated as an interesting comment.

If however a dealer testifies of some customers who preferred A to B and to C, then this is seen as nonsense and hype.

Who is able to prove that one is more reliable than the other?

schwammerl. [/b]
It's not a question of reliability. It's a question of dealer self promotion and the rules of this forum(and the number of times some delears self promote).

What could be more blatant than promoting Hailun and Brodmann in a thread about Estonias?

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#217084 - 02/06/09 01:46 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
birchy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Vancouver
Promotion says call me and I'll give you a deal. Enthusiasm for what is going on in the marketplace including one's own does not stick a finger in anyone else's eye, so I really can't understand your continuing targeting of one or two people.

The topic of the thread is Estonia? As I read it, Norbert's initial comments addressed directly the response real live people have to Estonia - they love its unique character or it doesn't do much for them.

A related response is how visitors react to the tone and performance of the other pianos sitting in his showroom. So he wrote:

 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Despite the emergence of quite incredible pianos coming from China these days - I'm thinking of the 7' variety of new grands by Hailun and Brodmann here - someone in our store just played a new 5'6 Estonia and was completely taken by it.

This was a person *only* interested in about 7' grands or larger...

[/b]
(emphasis mine)

So he was showing that beyond any industry-wide "hype" about his Chinese brands, for some people the Estonia continues to have a tremendous personal appeal.

T-dot is right. If an individual is allowed to say "I love my piano" then why is it offensive when a dealer reports "some people really love this piano"? If it is true in one case, it is true in the other.

Or perhaps truth is not a defense for "crimes" such as this...

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#217085 - 02/06/09 01:52 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
 Quote:
What could be more blatant than promoting Hailun and Brodmann in a thread about Estonias?
Well perhaps if you cannot stand when this is said by a dealer.

However I am not afraid to say that if one is on some more tight budget, considering a Wendl & Lung (partner Hailun factory) is not all that blatant.

Biased? Probably.
Related to the piano business? Not at all.

schwammerl.

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#217086 - 02/06/09 02:01 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
birchy Offline
Full Member

Registered: 05/29/06
Posts: 323
Loc: Vancouver
And I should correct myself that it was Schwammerl who made the point, not T-dot.

(Hi by the way \:\) )

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#217087 - 02/06/09 02:21 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
 Quote:


If an individual is allowed to say "I love my piano" then why is it offensive when a dealer reports "some people really love this piano"? If it is true in one case, it is true in the other.

Or perhaps truth is not a defense for "crimes" such as this... [/QB]
It's not a question of truth(whether the statement was made by a customer of Norbert). Is it not true that when a dealer mentions a customer's favorable comments/reactions about a piano he sells it's self promotion?
That kind of statement belongs on the delaers website(where delears often post "testimonials") or the Estonia forum.

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#217088 - 02/06/09 02:39 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
turandot Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/27/07
Posts: 7089
Loc: torrance, CA
Plover,

I really enjoyed this recent post of yours.

 Quote:
Yes. Norbert has been secretly rebuilding Avantgardenabi's beloved Knabe and meanwhile Pianoloverus has lent his BB to AGN whose has painted it white because he wants to rent it to Melody7 who has decided she really wants a rosewood Boesendorfer like SHpiano who has unknown to anyone else traded her Bluthner for three of Pianomadam's Essexes but at the last minute Pianomadam installed Boesendorfer player system in one of the Essexes which angered Ori who contacted Rich Galassini who said "your piano may not sing, but I sure can."

Since Pianoloverus has no piano now he has asked Norbert for a Stanwoodized/Wapinized Hailun vertical in jacaranda finish with fourth pedal, ice cream cone legs, full damp chaser, fallboard name changed to Estonia, tunable front and rear duplexes, string cover made by Kenny, and underlid in lieu of an advertising fee. Norbert has...
Do you think you could add a little dose of that humor into these moderating posts of yours where you expound on what dealers should and should not do?

It's apparent you won't be changing your opinions, but how about a more light-hearted approach?
_________________________
Will Johnny Come Marching Home?
The fate of the modern wartime soldier

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#217089 - 02/06/09 02:57 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
pianoloverus Online   content
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/29/01
Posts: 19096
Loc: New York City
 Quote:
Originally posted by turandot:
Plover,

Do you think you could add a little dose of that humor into these moderating posts of yours where you expound on what dealers should and should not do?
[/b]
Glad you liked that post. It's not just my opinion of what dealers should and should not do. It's in the forum rules.

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#217090 - 02/06/09 05:42 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
ftp Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/10/05
Posts: 2365
Loc: Philadelphia
Norbert

Are you selling that Steinway B that you received for the Estonia 190? What's it going for?

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#217091 - 02/06/09 06:59 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
mdsdurango Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/01/04
Posts: 1755
Loc: Durango Colorado
 Quote:
Originally posted by whippen boy:
 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Estonia doesn't seem to need a *reason* or justification - it seems to be found and adopted by players as if an inner clock was ticking between them in almost pre-arranged syncrony...


 Quote:
Originally posted by Norbert:
Could it be that this is one piano that chooses its new owner as much as it is being chosen itself?
Norbert, have you ever considered writing science fiction? \:D [/b]
_________________________
WHAT???????
Yamaha S6, U5C, P120
http://michaelstith.com

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#217092 - 02/06/09 07:52 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
 Quote:
Norbert

Are you selling that Steinway B that you received for the Estonia 190? What's it going for?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No, the owners reportedly returned piano to dealer.

Norbert
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#217093 - 02/06/09 10:31 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
cscl Offline
Full Member

Registered: 08/13/07
Posts: 255
Loc: Suburban Boston
When I started off my piano search, I'd never heard of Estonia pianos, but tried them out along with Yamahas (my initial preference), Kawais, and Bostons, and then the more I learned, the more I was ineluctably drawn to the Estonia. 1.5 years later I'm all the more happy for my purchase and even visited the factory where it was made in Tallinn.

If there's Estonia kool-aid out there, then I've drunk from the super-sized cup. What Norbert says may be dealer hype, but I have to say it's accurate as well! So many things clicked with this piano and have continued to click with ownership.
_________________________
cscl
Estonia 190 Satin Ebony
ABF Recitals: x9 — Studio Recitals: x17
*

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#217094 - 02/06/09 11:32 PM Re: Estonia grand piano
ChatNoir Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/19/05
Posts: 1469
Loc: Encino, California
Amen!
_________________________
Some men are music lovers. Others make love without it.

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#217095 - 02/07/09 12:26 AM Re: Estonia grand piano
Norbert Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 07/03/01
Posts: 13963
Loc: Surrey, B.C.
What some consider 'dealer hype' may be simply attention given to undervalued stock by others.

There is a difference in hyping things if this are done in isolation of other forces within industry - endless rows of enthusiastic customers being the most important indicator with people like Larry Fine running a not-to-distant second.

If Larry Fine sees fit to continuously upgrade his ratings of certain pianos such as Estonia as he has done vigorously over the years - 'hyping' by those whose simple crime was being 'ahead of time' - and had the courage to say so - needs to be seen in a somewhat different light.

If it does make cetain folks here feel better: "pleading guilty".

Meantime: *stay tuned*.

Norbert \:o
_________________________
www.heritagepianos.com
Greater Vancouver B.C. piano dealers for : C.Sauter, Estonia, Brodmann, Ritmuller
604-951-8642

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#217096 - 02/07/09 03:00 AM Re: Estonia grand piano
schwammerl Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/16/06
Posts: 2011
Loc: Belgium
Below is an interesting article on "over-hypin your brand" also called "putting lipstick on a pig":

http://www.google.com/search?hl=nl&lr=&rlz=1T4GGLG_enBE307BE307&q=hyping+in+marketing&start=10&sa=N

After I've read it I concluded noe of the pitfalls apply to Estonia Pianos for the moment, i.e.
* no rapid excessive line extensions
* no feature creeping
* lack of budget for product develompment not compensated by lot of advertsing
* and the brand doesn't show up in the wrong places

Does some of this apply to other brands?

You will be the judge.

schwammerl.

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