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Just curious...doing a bunch of gigs with a female vocalist so the keys are all strange wondering what the consensus is.

Depends on time constraints. If you can't learn all the needed keys in time to work with her, then obviously the transpose button.

RonL,

Just depends if you want the gig to be a learning experience (or not) and if you have a bass player who will be watching your LH.

There's nothing wrong with using the transpose button especially if you're the only instrument accompanying the vocalist. Convenience and ease ARE good things! On the other hand, some prefer to learn the tunes in different keys because it's good skill and can teach you lot in the doing of it. When you transpose you'll generally hear things a little differently and course your fingers will definitely feel the difference if they're used to the tune in the original key

It comes down to learning is learning and gig survival (and making the vocalist comfortable) is always the prime directive!

I lean towards the transpose button, because this is a gig, and gigs are about pleasing the customer rather than learning new skills or showing off.

But I can see it both ways.

In my opinion trasposing exercises are very powerful!

For example I like very much "Stardust" H.Carmichael in Db instead in Cmaj maj.

I think anyway that trasposing a Chopin Etude or a Jelly Roll Morton's Stride Piece, is very time expensive and (perhaps) tends to mechanize the trasposition.

Instead, learning trasposition at first in a little piece (like Misty or Over the Rainbow), allow you to catch the meaning of all kind of armony and chords logic...

Enrico

There is different schools of thoughts on this. Some of my teachers have told me you need to learn around 500 standards and be able to play in any keys, but other teachers can't really do that either. Some of my teachers would be furious at the thought of using sheet music in vocalist's key, let alone using the transpose button. They think you are not really doing your job as a musician unless you learn all those new songs in singer's key by ear. Of course that may be extreme, but then again, they became A-list players because they are willing to do the homework.

Then again, we don't really live in a time where musicians get the chance to play standard gigs 5 nights a week, which is how these people learned to do that. If you are new to accompanying vocalist, learning 2 sets of music by ear, or learning it in their key is pretty daunting task.

So it really depends on your expectations, your goals as a musician and what kind of work you want to be getting.

That, above, is absolutely what we should be striving for. But in the meantime you have to do the gig. So, it's ok to read lead sheets for those songs you don't know so well, and it's ok to have them in the singer's key, as long as you keep working at memorizing and transposing them. The idea is that six months from now, you should be able to play them from memory in different keys. For that you have to have discipline, work at it systematically, and once you've got a song memorized, you never take the sheet to your gig again.

The good news is, the more you do it the easier it gets.

The transpose button, meh. First of all it often sounds weird because it forces chords inversions that don't sound good. Also, what do you do if your next gig has an acoustic piano? (Yeah, there are still some of those around for some reason...)

A friend of mine had a lesson with a really well known jazz musician in the LA area. He told my friend the first lesson is free but he will have to bring a real book. The first thing he did was tear his real book apart and told him never to use it again. For him, if you have to rely on sheets, then you don't know the tune well enough and you are not ready to take the gig in the first place.

Of course that is pretty extreme case... but again, he is at the top of the food chain for a reason. Again, it really depends on what your expectations are and how much you are willing to practice for it. Doing it this way may help you learn quicker in the long run, bu it takes a lot of investment up front.

Well there you go... that sounds about right!! Ha ha.
I suppose he'd also destroy any "transpose button" with a flame thrower.

I read this in some book: a musician in Art Blakey's band was playing a tune from a lead sheet. Art said out loud: "oh, Xxx, he's not playing, he's reading"

That said, as I noted earlier, you still have to get through the gig. But everytime you're reading something, you should know in the back of your mind, that it's WICKED AND WRONG!

Well got through the gig with the transpose button, though I did start one tune in the wrong key because I forgot to turn the transpose off, opps.

Perhaps I should start another thread because I would be interested to hear opinions on learning sings in all keys, seems excessive to me.

If you mean learning *every* song in all keys, then yeah that's excessive. (Better to learn in the standard key and a couple of related keys)

But if you mean should you be proficient in all 12 keys, then yes this is the correct goal to have.

Ron,

The question of how many keys to learn something in is always lurking about. So Michael's comment to 12-key proficiency is exactly what you want. 12-key proficiency is the grail.

That said, how to get to that - it comes down to how to sequence the learning process. Everyone learns a little bit differently. (That "mileage may vary thingy").

I just downloaded a new instructional thingy from Dave Liebman, Bob Mintzer, and Bob Shepperd. They're all talking about playing in 12 keys.

There's another version of the same from an interview with Harold Danko on my blog.

http://www.polishookstudio.com/2013/10/online-jazz-piano-harold-danko-interview.html

Harold talks about 12-key practicing in one of the articles he let me post with the interview. Here's the article.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u...tice%20Routines%20of%20the%20Masters.pdf

Here's what he said:

“ … I often tell my students that cost-effectiveness is key - that is, just go ahead and practice everything in all keys. That way you won’t have to pay another teacher to tell you the same thing some other time. The greatest players have all traveled this same trail in some manner …”

Do 2 or 3 keys a day and then in a week all 12 keys always get covered. But that's just one way to do it (one learning sequence). Again, there's no one sequence for everyone. (I know you know that already ....

Hope this helps!

Well, according to some of my teachers, the ability to be able to play 300-500 songs by memory and being able to do them in different keys is necessary. It's what you have to do if you want to work as a musician.

Of course, you do have to take these things with grain of salt... because most of us don't get the opportunity play jazz gigs 5 nights a week and make a living on it like they did 20-30 years ago, and it's a skill they've acquired over years and years of playing. Personally I think it's good(even necessary) long term goal to have. It's also important to keep in mind that these things do get a log easier the more you do it. It's not unusual for people to learn the changes to a tune as the band is playing... and I've seen people learn the tune in matter of 1-2 choruses... if you get to that point, learning a new tune is pretty fast process.

I guess it goes hand in hand with really understanding the harmonic structure of a tune - something I have beard Bill Evans talk about and he has a lot of arrangements where there are key shifts. If you understand Take The A Train as I,II+, iim,V7 I then transposition and tune memorization is easier - I guess.

You have to pick your battles I suppose. There is that great quote from Dizzy that goes something like: every day I pick up the trumpet and practice. Some days I win, other days the trumpet wins. One day I am not gong to be around to pick up the trumpet anymore and the trumpet is going to wn forever. Point is I think that we only have a limited amount of time to work on things that we could work on forever - technique, ear training, learnng tunes, transcription, chord voicings, bass lines, improv, writting tunes, playing fast, transposition, the list goes on and on.

I had a trumpet. Let me tell you, it did not win ...

ROTFLMAO

Your teachers are wrong to say that you "can't work as a musican if you don't know 300 song". It entirely depends on context. It probably should be your goal, but you can definitely work and get paid long before you get to that point. The "knowing 300 songs by memory in all keys" is like the gold standard, but it doesn't preclude you from getting out there first.



Most definitely true. This is why at the beginning of my book, I say pick one song, learn it thoroughly with all the reharmonizations, improvisations, etc.. ,then repeat with the next song. By three or four songs later, you'll find the whole process becomes more natural. The things you learn in rehamonizing one song, apply to many different tunes.



In my opinion this is obvious and necessary. This is where the "Roman numeral system" comes into play as an instructional tool. This makes it easier to transpose and it makes it easier to understand how things revolve around a tonal center. As I say in one of my video lessons, learn a tune, then learn it in the neighboring key on the left on the circle of fifths, then on the neighboring key on the right - in other words, the original key, then adding or subtracting a sharp or flat. Get accustomed to that process for each tune you learn. As your tune repertoire grows, so does your familiarity with all 12 keys.

No my teachers didn't say you can't work as a musician "at alll" if you don't know 300+ songs in all keys. You are twisting what I said. Of course you can get some gigs without knowing that much,but your ability to get gigs will be limited.

What they actually meant is that if you are serious about being a working jazz musician as a career, in a place as competitive as LA, that kind of ability is pretty much necessary.

There are plenty of jam sessions where people won't give you respect as a player if you are reading charts. They see that as sign that you haven't paid proper due as a player. I've also heard stories from them about being a young up and coming player, and older players will deliberately kick their butt, put them in their place by starting a standard and transposing half a step up every chorus.

So back to RonL: if you want to play with these guys etcetra is talking about, then you'd better learn all 12 keys. But if you want to keep playing with the folks you've been with, then the transpose button is sufficient.

That's why I've repeatedly said it depends on what your expectations are. I've also said in this thread many times that their views may be extreme and you do have to take it with grain of salt too. But at the same time, this is a common attitude/work ethic most top players have about their own craft, and it's probably something the OP should know too. The OP asked whether it's excessive, and my teacher's answer is no, especially if this is something you want to do as a career.

It would help if you actually read what I've said instead of being so quick to dis on what other teachers are saying. You seem to be doing that quite often here and you've done similar things Dave Frank's video posts too.

Btw my teachers are kind of people who are getting called to play gigs with Clayton Brothers, Natalie Cole, Nancy Wilson, and all the A-list players. So ya, if you want to play with these guys I am talking about, you better know your tunes in different keys.