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#2171389 - 10/24/13 05:03 PM Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live)
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
This was part of a program that also included the "Funeral March" Sonata. I was not happy with how the sonata came out so I've left it out, but there is enough good in the rest of the concert that I feel comfortable sharing it. The Scherzi are nearly 40 minutes of music, so it's a big file and I recommend streaming it.

Berceuse: https://app.box.com/s/5l5q9g3l1f56o0u1o27c

Scherzi:
https://app.box.com/s/gvyqxo99szydvh2wmuhf

No. 1 in B minor, Op. 20: 0:00
No. 2 in B-flat minor, Op. 31: 10:50
No. 3 in C-sharp minor, Op. 39: 20:50
No. 4 in E major, Op. 54: 28:14


Edited by jeffreyjones (10/24/13 05:06 PM)

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#2171392 - 10/24/13 05:04 PM Re: Chopin: Berceuse and Four Scherzi (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
The links do not work.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2171395 - 10/24/13 05:06 PM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
Fixed it, forgot to do the sharing links.

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#2171619 - 10/25/13 02:11 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Listened to a fair amount of the 1st Scherzo....

Are you happy with how long you waited on the rests? (Important point!)

Good job on the basics -- of course you have the piece.

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#2171756 - 10/25/13 10:36 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
I still tend to rush to the next measure and cut rests short. I'm aware of that and I'm getting better at it, but I don't always hear it as I'm playing it.

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#2171834 - 10/25/13 01:13 PM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Yes -- the rests are cut way short (not just at the beginning).

IMO when a piece has stuff like that, it's no more ready than when we don't yet have the notes. You have the piece, but it's not ready. smile

For example, and for what it's worth, I think that in competitions, we'd get eliminated quicker for that than for some sloppiness. And another IMO: A lot of people give things like this much less attention than they call for. It's easy to overlook in our work -- and, ironically, it probably wouldn't take all that much.

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#2171837 - 10/25/13 01:24 PM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
Pathbreaker Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/04
Posts: 1030
Loc: Massachusetts
Thanks for sharing, I really enjoyed the 4 scherzi. Nicely constructed, thoughtfully and passionately played. I don't have much to offer for analysis but it does appear the observation of rests that has been mentioned is in some other areas. The octave sections of the third scherzo seem to be missing the 8th note rest and instead a quarter is played (written as a quarter split into 8th note and 8th note rest). Am I hearing that right? Is that what you are referring to?

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#2172108 - 10/25/13 11:31 PM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Sorry, but I don't think your technique is ready for these pieces, and definitely not good enough for an effective program of ALL FOUR scherzi. My advice would be to pick the one you love the most, put the other three on the shelf, and focus narrowly, but intensively, one that one scherzo. Do you have a teacher? How long have you been playing?


Edited by JoelW (10/25/13 11:34 PM)

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#2172111 - 10/25/13 11:46 PM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Joel: I have to wonder if you're kidding, maybe doing a parody of something, or whatever, even though it seems like you're not. Jeffrey's technique is ready for basically anything -- and we absolutely see that here. At the most, maybe he's not in his very best playing shape because of having had to do other things in the last few years.

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#2172115 - 10/25/13 11:58 PM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Joel: I have to wonder if you're kidding, maybe doing a parody of something, or whatever, even though it seems like you're not. Jeffrey's technique is ready for basically anything -- and we do see that here. At the most, maybe he's not in his best playing shape because of having had to do other things in the last few years.


I'm only giving my honest opinion. I don't know anything about Jeffrey. I'm just judging by what I hear. I feel that pieces like these are only effective if the technique possessed by the player is immaculate, which I don't feel is the case here. It's one thing to learn and practice pieces like these -- which I think Jeffrey is more than capable of doing -- it's whether or not performing them is appropriate.

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#2172142 - 10/26/13 01:57 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: JoelW]
BruceD Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 17828
Loc: Victoria, BC
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Joel: I have to wonder if you're kidding, maybe doing a parody of something, or whatever, even though it seems like you're not. Jeffrey's technique is ready for basically anything -- and we do see that here. At the most, maybe he's not in his best playing shape because of having had to do other things in the last few years.


I'm only giving my honest opinion. I don't know anything about Jeffrey. I'm just judging by what I hear. I feel that pieces like these are only effective if the technique possessed by the player is immaculate, which I don't feel is the case here. It's one thing to learn and practice pieces like these -- which I think Jeffrey is more than capable of doing -- it's whether or not performing them is appropriate.


Joel :

Some specifics might be helpful, both to us listeners and to Jeffrey.

Regards,
_________________________
BruceD
- - - - -
Estonia 190

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#2172147 - 10/26/13 02:07 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: JoelW]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Sorry, but I don't think your technique is ready for these pieces, and definitely not good enough for an effective program of ALL FOUR scherzi. My advice would be to pick the one you love the most, put the other three on the shelf, and focus narrowly, but intensively, one that one scherzo. Do you have a teacher? How long have you been playing?


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Wow. Just wow.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2172152 - 10/26/13 02:22 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: BruceD]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: BruceD
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Joel: I have to wonder if you're kidding, maybe doing a parody of something, or whatever, even though it seems like you're not. Jeffrey's technique is ready for basically anything -- and we do see that here. At the most, maybe he's not in his best playing shape because of having had to do other things in the last few years.


I'm only giving my honest opinion. I don't know anything about Jeffrey. I'm just judging by what I hear. I feel that pieces like these are only effective if the technique possessed by the player is immaculate, which I don't feel is the case here. It's one thing to learn and practice pieces like these -- which I think Jeffrey is more than capable of doing -- it's whether or not performing them is appropriate.


Joel :

Some specifics might be helpful, both to us listeners and to Jeffrey.

Regards,


Specifics? I don't follow. You mean like, specific parts of the performance? Well, all of it. The whole performance is permeated with the sound of technical struggle. It would make me uncomfortable as an audience member to be frank.

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#2172159 - 10/26/13 02:33 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: stores]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: stores
Wow. Just wow.

Perhaps the first time ever that I've agreed with such a post.

Joel:
Look. smile
As you know, I think you're a great member, you're an unusually bright and knowledgeable and sensitive and perceptive kid (perhaps pardon my saying "kid") grin ....and I like you and all that. But about this stuff here, granting that such things are subjective, you're simply wrong here and you're being unfair to Jeffrey. It's simply false that he's showing "technical struggle," and much more so that this playing is "permeated" with it.

That said, I agree to some extent with part of your gist. I've mentioned before to Jeffrey that I think he would be better off to focus on fewer pieces and aim to take them to still-higher levels. From what we've seen, he tends to play huge amounts of repertoire (it helps that he's a fantastic sight-reader) and, as I gather, not devote as much attention to individual pieces as most of us might. If I recall right, he said he didn't think there would be great benefit to the pieces by focusing more, and I disagreed. But "technical struggle"? Uh-uh.


Edited by Mark_C (10/26/13 02:41 AM)

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#2172163 - 10/26/13 03:02 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Okay I see what I've done here. Sorry if I have offended anyone, especially you, Jeffrey. Now that I have taken a much more intense listen (specifically the 4th), what I had confused to be technical struggle seems to be musical problems rather than technical. For instance, the grand runs in the 4th are very rushed, choppy, overly-loud, and sometimes the right hand is hardly audible. Maybe this is from technical trouble, maybe not. There middle section is played very beautifully though. The coda, however, is not technically sound, and I'm sure there are more spots like this in the rest of the scherzi.

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#2172164 - 10/26/13 03:08 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
It is totally fair to say that I haven't fully mastered any of these pieces. Considering that I'm not a professional, though, and make no pretensions to it, I don't at all feel that it's fair for you to tell me I shouldn't be playing this music. My technique is roughshod because I work 60 hours a week.

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#2172166 - 10/26/13 03:12 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: JoelW]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Joel: Better. smile

But still, much of what you're saying about the 4th isn't so, and this part:

Originally Posted By: JoelW
....The coda....is not technically sound

....is utterly false. There can be musical quibbles (and I'd have some, especially that I think the very end is just brusque), but it's plenty technically sound.

My best guess about this is that you're judging from the technical finish and musical preferences of a particular performance by some 'unidentified' pianist. grin

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#2172167 - 10/26/13 03:12 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
It is totally fair to say that I haven't fully mastered any of these pieces. Considering that I'm not a professional, though, and make no pretensions to it, I don't at all feel that it's fair for you to tell me I shouldn't be playing this music.


You're right. You don't have to listen to anything I'm saying. All I'm saying is that it's generally better to master one rather than do all of them not to the best of your ability. Quality over quantity. Just my opinion. I hope I haven't earned a spot on your bad side, have I? I don't know how else to say what I'm saying. And I certainly wouldn't sugar-coat it even if I could! smile

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#2172168 - 10/26/13 03:17 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: JoelW]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
Originally Posted By: JoelW
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
It is totally fair to say that I haven't fully mastered any of these pieces. Considering that I'm not a professional, though, and make no pretensions to it, I don't at all feel that it's fair for you to tell me I shouldn't be playing this music.


You're right. You don't have to listen to anything I'm saying. All I'm saying is that it's generally better to master one rather than do all of them not to the best of your ability. Quality over quantity. Just my opinion. I hope I haven't earned a spot on your bad side, have I? I don't know how else to say what I'm saying. And I certainly wouldn't sugar-coat it even if I could! smile


Do you know how much money I make off of playing serious, solo piano repertoire every year? None. My income is all from stuff that is completely unrelated. So I hope you can excuse me if I play the music that I enjoy, even though I get very little practice time, so that I don't feel completely deprived. That concert didn't earn me a dime - it went back to the church that hosted it, as did the proceeds from the recordings.

Next month, I'll be playing Mozart's Concerto No. 23. That is getting all of my attention now, and there's no money in that either. I'm also contributing to the Chopin Mazurka recital just a couple weeks later and there's no money in that either. Do I expect to be note-perfect? No. I expect to get enough of the notes that my voice comes through.

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#2172170 - 10/26/13 03:25 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
My best guess about this is that you're judging from the technical finish and musical preferences of a particular performance by some 'unidentified' pianist. grin


No, not just Bunin. lol

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#2172172 - 10/26/13 03:39 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Jeff: That's totally cool. Don't take this too seriously though, I'm really only expressing my simple belief of quality over quantity, because I really think you could totally own one of these if you narrowed in on it. I'm aware of your goals and I know you just want to play everything that you love, which is totally fine.

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#2172174 - 10/26/13 03:40 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: Mark_C]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4760
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Mark_C
Joel: Better. smile

But still, much of what you're saying about the 4th isn't so, and this part:

Originally Posted By: JoelW
....The coda....is not technically sound

....is utterly false. There can be musical quibbles (and I'd have some, especially that I think the very end is just brusque), but it's plenty technically sound.

My best guess about this is that you're judging from the technical finish and musical preferences of a particular performance by some 'unidentified' pianist. grin


I think there is more than just quibbles, Mark. Listen to the left hand octaves just before the grand descending double octave line. Rushed and not accurate!

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#2172176 - 10/26/13 03:44 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: JoelW]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
I will take your suggestion to heart. And once I have some free time, after the Mozart and the mazurka recital, I will choose a single work to zero in on.

As I recall, most of the preparation time that went into this concert was focused on learning the Sonata. I spent a huge amount of time just learning it and that was all time that was taken from the Scherzi. In hindsight, I would have been better off just playing the Berceuse (which I think came out extremely well) and the Scherzi.

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#2172235 - 10/26/13 08:57 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6646
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Joel,
I will be much more frank than Mark, or Jeffrey have been. You simply don't know what you're talking about. I like the fact that you're trying to put your finger on something that you're missing with the recording(s), and while Jeffrey may benefit from extra practise time (as would all of us), he is more than technically capable of playing the scherzi. Keep thinking about what you're listening to and what it is that you believe you want to hear. In this case, you're lucky, because Jeffrey is of a character that is more than accepting of wayward criticism. I think you're intelligent enough to figure out what it is that you truly want to hear here, but you simply lack experience (as does your ear).
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2172249 - 10/26/13 09:25 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7501
Loc: New York City
By the way, for what it's worth, I agree with Joel on much of what he's said here. The performances sound like they're hanging by a thread. The fourth is quite bad actually. Listen to 37:26 in the recording. That's not just a bit of sloppiness - that's a bigger problem. He repeated it twice. Rushed and unmusical. I will give more specifics to whoever wants them.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2172277 - 10/26/13 10:15 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: Polyphonist]
Mark_C Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 19644
Loc: New York
Jeffrey: Try not to pay too much attention to what looks wrong, because it is.

Poly: NO. smile
Not just that you shouldn't have said it, but that it's wrong -- as stated, meaning that maybe valid criticisms do exist underneath what you said, but not as you said it.

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#2172287 - 10/26/13 10:50 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2290
Loc: San Jose, CA
Please close this thread.

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#2172297 - 10/26/13 11:16 AM Re: Chopin: 4 Scherzi and Berceuse (live) [Re: jeffreyjones]
Kreisler Offline



Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 13759
Loc: Iowa City, IA
Gladly.
_________________________
"If we continually try to force a child to do what he is afraid to do, he will become more timid, and will use his brains and energy, not to explore the unknown, but to find ways to avoid the pressures we put on him." (John Holt)

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