Welcome to the Piano World Piano Forums
Over 2 million posts about pianos, digital pianos, and all types of keyboard instruments
Join the World's Largest Community of Piano Lovers (it's free)
It's Fun to Play the Piano ... Please Pass It On!

Gifts and supplies for the musician
SEARCH
the Forums & Piano World

This custom search works much better than the built in one and allows searching older posts.
Ad (Piano Sing)
How to Make Your Piano Sing
(ad) Pearl River
Pearl River Pianos
(ad 125) Sweetwater - Digital Keyboards & Other Gear
Digital Pianos at Sweetwater
(ad) Pianoteq
(ad) P B Guide
Acoustic & Digital Piano Guide
Who's Online
103 registered (ando, AndyP, AmateurBob, 33 invisible), 1288 Guests and 19 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Quick Links to Useful Piano & Music Resources
Our Classified Ads
Find Piano Professionals-

*Piano Dealers - Piano Stores
*Piano Tuners
*Piano Teachers
*Piano Movers
*Piano Restorations
*Piano Manufacturers
*Organs

Quick Links:
*Advertise On Piano World
*Free Piano Newsletter
*Online Piano Recitals
*Piano Recitals Index
*Piano & Music Accessories
*Music School Listings
* Buying a Piano
*Buying A Acoustic Piano
*Buying a Digital Piano
*Pianos for Sale
*Sell Your Piano
*How Old is My Piano?
*Piano Books
*Piano Art, Pictures, & Posters
*Directory/Site Map
*Contest
*Links
*Virtual Piano
*Music Word Search
*Piano Screen Saver
*Piano Videos
*Virtual Piano Chords
(ad) Estonia Piano
Estonia Pianos
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
#2171810 - 10/25/13 12:24 PM Who says an ETD isn't good enough?
lingus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 40
hi everyone, I have been wanting to post this for a while, but has been hesitant, because confrontation makes me uncomfortable, and I know this can be a rather Inflammatory topic. however, here it goes.

I will be the first to admit that I started my journey as a "tooner". after tuning just a handful of low end pianos in a store I worked part time at with borrowed equipment, before I knew the first thing about setting a string or setting a pin, not to mention any sort of piano technology, I was given a huge advantage. An old sight o tuner, a basic set of tools, and a list of close to a thousand potential customers landed in my lap. I may not have known much about pianos, but I knew how to sell myself. So, off I went. I would run out, twist as many pins as I could, grab the checks, and run home. I was in my twenties, & I was lazy


that was 15 years ago. I have now learned much about regulation, piano repairs, voicing, etc. However, I have still never learned to tune by ear.I do tune the unisons by ear, I make sure that every pin and string is set, but the overall tuning curve is consistently set by my Accu tuner IV.

I have read so many posts on this great forum, and it seems that whenever this comes up, the aural tuners consistently say things to the effect of, the electronic device is not capable of giving the piano color, or personality, or of making it sing... et cetera...
but the one I see the most is the argument that people who are satisfied with electronic tunings do not know what a good tuning is supposed to sound like.

well I admit I probably do have a good deal with clients who do not know what a great tuning sounds like, I would like to mention a few exceptions that I have in my book. I am NOT going to mention any names, because I do not think that is right. This will undoubtedly make some question the honesty of my post, but I hope some of you will take me at my word that I have better things to do to then to come on here and pretend that I know famous people.

At a Bosendorfer dealer in my area, the owner, who is probably one of the pickiest and most knowledgeable piano people I have ever known, uses a handful of different tuners (ironically, all besides me are aural tuners) however, he consistently invites me to his home to tune his personal 225, because he says he prefers my tunings.

I have a young lady who is a concert pianist turned composer, who just won her first Grammy, who also consistently has me over, because she says she likes the way I make her piano sound the best.

I have a classical recording artist, who is a Carnegie Hall vet, who has played around the world, undoubtedly on many instruments prepared by some of the world's finest concert technicians. but she invites me and my Accu tuner to her home to tune the Hamburg D in her living room twice a year, because in her own words, she likes my tunings the best.

saving the best for last, I have an extremely well known composer, with many Grammys under his belt, whose name and works are known to everyone in this forum, who uses me to tune his 225, and his Steinway B, because he loves the way I make them sound.

I don't think anybody would be able to look at me with a straight face and tell me that none of these people know what a good tuning is supposed to sound like. don't get me wrong, I am NOT trying to trivialize the great skill, and the great respect that I have for ear tuners. I know you have taken a long time to learn your craft, and again, I respect it greatly.I am NOT trying to rile you guys up, I am actually hoping more that I would hear from someone else in my position, who is afraid to speak up because of the way electronic tuners can sometimes be dismissed on this forum.


Iso my question is, if the people who are most vocally opposed to electronic tunings are the ear tuners, but the clients are pleased with the way they sound, then is there really a difference? And furthermore, is it necessarily a bad difference, and most importantly, does it even matter? To whom?


thank you so much for listening.

Top
(ad PTG 757) The Value of PTG Membership
The Value of a PTG Membership
#2171817 - 10/25/13 12:39 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: lingus
...

So my question is, if the people who are most vocally opposed to electronic tunings are the ear tuners, but the clients are pleased with the way they sound, then is there really a difference? And furthermore, is it necessarily a bad difference, and most importantly, does it even matter? To whom?


thank you so much for listening.


You and I may be in the same boat, but at different ends...

See, I have always tuned aurally and can only go by what others say in regards to ETD tuning.

But I really don't understand you question. It has too many ifs, ands and buts. So let me ask you one to clarify your position. Do you think your ETD tunings are better than the aural tunings you hear? I know of one ETD tuner that thinks aural tunings are better, but doesn't know what the difference is.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2171820 - 10/25/13 12:44 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1730
Loc: Colorado
Some folks really like that Accutuner and use it well - I've never seen one in action, though.

Without regard to whether you use an electronic tuning device as your sole source for setting temperaments and stretch or not, if your clients like how the piano sounds after you tune it - that's what matters to you.

The tuning has to sound musical and make sense to the player - from your description it appears that happens. Maybe one day you will learn to train your ear for setting temperaments across the register if it ever becomes important to you.

_________________________

A Bit of YouTube
PTG Associate Member

Top
#2171830 - 10/25/13 01:01 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
Samthetech Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/11/13
Posts: 78
I agree that ETD users are trivialized by many on this forum, but they aren't people I usually listen to. In fact, I almost always end up skipping their posts entirely. I've never had another tuner tell me to my face that using a machine makes my tunings sound lifeless. In fact, I feel my tunings are far more consistent with the machine.

Are aural tuners going to try and convince me that they can tune their absolute best with a sinus infection? Each method has its pros and cons and it really just depends on what you are used to. I use my ETD because I prefer it. Its much faster and mathematically more accurate than an aural tuning. I have done tunings by ear, and I have of course had to disregard my machine on occasion because it sounded "weird." Saying that only the old school way is the best way or even the only adequate way is silly. Change is a good thing, but there are always going to be people fighting against it.


I do agree that you have no business tuning for customers until you have developed an ear for temperament. ETDs can certainly need adjusting. I have seen how people get ahold of an ETD and suddenly think they know what they are doing, and that can certainly be a problem.
_________________________
Piano Technician, 3 years experience

And why yes, I know I'm a girl!

Top
#2171850 - 10/25/13 01:47 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: UnrightTooner]
lingus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 40
absolutely not! I definitely think aural tuning is a wonderful skill, which I intend on learning soon. However, I no longer plan to learn it because I think it is crucial in order for me to do my job correctly. I should have clarified that, I am in no way trying to suggest that I deliver the best tunings on the planet. in fact, I even feel a little strange calling them "my" tunings. They are not mine, they are Dr Sanderson's tunings lol.

and there has certainly been a time or two where I had to correct the machines work, because it just did not sound right. However, this has been a pretty rare occurrence.


Edited by lingus (10/25/13 01:51 PM)

Top
#2171856 - 10/25/13 01:58 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
Hakki Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 2722
lingus,

You might be shocked to read the Verituner patent that I had posted on the "How does an ETD works" thread.
It bashes the Sanderson tuning device almost to death.

So, the most brutal criticism always comes from the competition.
_________________________
Put in one of IMO, I think, to me, for me... or similar to all sentences I post

http://www.youtube.com/user/hakkithepianist

Top
#2171858 - 10/25/13 02:00 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: lingus
absolutely not! I definitely think aural tuning is a wonderful skill, which I intend on learning soon. However, I no longer plan to learn it because I think it is crucial in order for me to do my job correctly. I should have clarified that, I am in no way trying to suggest that I deliver the best tunings on the planet. in fact, I even feel a little strange calling them "my" tunings. They are not mine, they are Dr Sanderson's tunings lol.

and there has certainly been a time or two where I had to correct the machines work, because it just did not sound right. However, this has been a pretty rare occurrence.


You may have a "negation" (no, not) that is confusing me. So you do not think that an ETD always tunes best? But then you have also said that you tune unisons aurally. I wonder if what is going on is that you tune exceptional unisons with exceptional stability and the ETD just happens to be along and gets underserved credit. I just wonder...
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2171861 - 10/25/13 02:08 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: UnrightTooner]
lingus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 40
this end of the conversation seems to be going in circles. All I'm trying to say, is that if everyone will just look around for a second and think about all the things that computers can do today, is it so impossible to consider that a computer is capable of setting a colorful temperament on a piano.I am sure there are probably some clients who heard my tuning, and then decided to go back to their by ear tuner. Everyone has different preferences. I am just saying that I can attest to the fact that there are some very discriminating ears out there who love the results produced by the Accu tuner. I'm just so sick of reading things like "tuners tune by ear. Period." there will never be a box that we can sit on top of the piano that will adjust let offs and aligned Jacks and ease key bushings, but as far as the tuning aspect, I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept the fact that technology may have caught up. Look around, computers are doing much crazier things than tuning pianos.

Top
#2171863 - 10/25/13 02:13 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
Tunewerk Offline
Full Member

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 414
Loc: Boston, MA
Originally Posted By: lingus
So my question is, if the people who are most vocally opposed to electronic tunings are the ear tuners, but the clients are pleased with the way they sound, then is there really a difference? And furthermore, is it necessarily a bad difference, and most importantly, does it even matter? To whom?


I was a machine tuner starting out, using the Accutuner. I'm not opposed to machine tuning and will probably be integrating it again into my work again in the near future. I am a proponent of new development and technology, if it improves upon a method.

To answer your long and nuanced question simply, from my own perspective:

Does aural tuning matter to you? It seems, no. You have a clientele which appreciates your machine tunings. It may be that it has little to do with your Accutuner at all. Maybe it is the combination of a good personality and an ability to set unisons and the pins well after much practice.

It is not necessarily a bad difference. On pianos like the Bosendorfer, Kawai, and Yamaha, the right settings on a machine tuning may sound better to some people due to the relative linearity of these scales.

But, it does matter. The skill to tune a piano aurally means you internalize and understand what you are doing. It turns you from a machine operator into a craftsman. You can go back to your machine then, with additional understanding, if you want.

In my experience, tuning with a machine became more stressful as I learned more about tuning aurally. Conflicting messages between what my eyes were seeing and what my ears were hearing, made decisions in tuning harder. When you begin a tuning with a machine and rely on several hundred decisions which you took no part in, and then decide something different aurally half-way in.. you don't feel in control of the situation.

When tuning aurally, I'm aware of every part of the situation. I can see the entire tuning in my head. If one problem shows up in the 5th octave, I remember, 'Oh yeah, I knew that decision in the temperament was on the edge.' I can then go back and correct all 5 or 7 notes, instead of fudging the results because I'm in the dark.

Scientifically, there also is a difference between what machines can do and what the aural tuner can do. This is measurable and specific, having to do first with the electronics, second with the software and third with predetermined decisions.
_________________________
www.tunewerk.com

Unity of tone through applied research.

Top
#2171865 - 10/25/13 02:16 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: Tunewerk]
lingus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 40
Great reply thanks. Again, aural tuning is something I intend to start learning by years end. I have a steinway certified mentor who says he will be happy to teach me.

Top
#2171868 - 10/25/13 02:20 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
UnrightTooner Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/13/08
Posts: 4954
Loc: Bradford County, PA
Originally Posted By: lingus
this end of the conversation seems to be going in circles. All I'm trying to say, is that if everyone will just look around for a second and think about all the things that computers can do today, is it so impossible to consider that a computer is capable of setting a colorful temperament on a piano.I am sure there are probably some clients who heard my tuning, and then decided to go back to their by ear tuner. Everyone has different preferences. I am just saying that I can attest to the fact that there are some very discriminating ears out there who love the results produced by the Accu tuner. I'm just so sick of reading things like "tuners tune by ear. Period." there will never be a box that we can sit on top of the piano that will adjust let offs and aligned Jacks and ease key bushings, but as far as the tuning aspect, I don't know why it is so hard for some to accept the fact that technology may have caught up. Look around, computers are doing much crazier things than tuning pianos.


Hmmm, demanding respect never works very well.
_________________________
Jeff Deutschle
Part-Time Tuner
Who taught the first chicken how to peck?

Top
#2171870 - 10/25/13 02:22 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: UnrightTooner]
lingus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 40
both of your last post: kind of confused me, but now I have no idea what you are talking about. I am NOT demanding any kind of respect. As I said, I don't like confrontation, so if that's the way I came off, rather than continue an argument, I will just say I apologize and that was not my intention.

Top
#2171907 - 10/25/13 03:56 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: Tunewerk]
OperaTenor Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/13/06
Posts: 2445
Loc: Sandy Eggo, California
Originally Posted By: Tunewerk
Originally Posted By: lingus
So my question is, if the people who are most vocally opposed to electronic tunings are the ear tuners, but the clients are pleased with the way they sound, then is there really a difference? And furthermore, is it necessarily a bad difference, and most importantly, does it even matter? To whom?


I was a machine tuner starting out, using the Accutuner. I'm not opposed to machine tuning and will probably be integrating it again into my work again in the near future. I am a proponent of new development and technology, if it improves upon a method.

To answer your long and nuanced question simply, from my own perspective:

Does aural tuning matter to you? It seems, no. You have a clientele which appreciates your machine tunings. It may be that it has little to do with your Accutuner at all. Maybe it is the combination of a good personality and an ability to set unisons and the pins well after much practice.

It is not necessarily a bad difference. On pianos like the Bosendorfer, Kawai, and Yamaha, the right settings on a machine tuning may sound better to some people due to the relative linearity of these scales.

But, it does matter. The skill to tune a piano aurally means you internalize and understand what you are doing. It turns you from a machine operator into a craftsman. You can go back to your machine then, with additional understanding, if you want.

In my experience, tuning with a machine became more stressful as I learned more about tuning aurally. Conflicting messages between what my eyes were seeing and what my ears were hearing, made decisions in tuning harder. When you begin a tuning with a machine and rely on several hundred decisions which you took no part in, and then decide something different aurally half-way in.. you don't feel in control of the situation.

When tuning aurally, I'm aware of every part of the situation. I can see the entire tuning in my head. If one problem shows up in the 5th octave, I remember, 'Oh yeah, I knew that decision in the temperament was on the edge.' I can then go back and correct all 5 or 7 notes, instead of fudging the results because I'm in the dark.

Scientifically, there also is a difference between what machines can do and what the aural tuner can do. This is measurable and specific, having to do first with the electronics, second with the software and third with predetermined decisions.


Well said!
_________________________
Happiness is a freshly tuned piano.
Jim Boydston, proprietor, No Piano Left Behind - technician
[url=www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind]www.facebook.com/NoPianoLeftBehind[/url]

Top
#2171911 - 10/25/13 04:05 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
David Jenson Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/22/06
Posts: 2175
Loc: Maine
An EMP (electro magnetic pulse) will end all the arguments. Oh wait. I forgot. There's still the ET, non ET thing, so life will remain interesting even around the post nuclear-attack campfire.


Edited by David Jenson (10/25/13 04:08 PM)
Edit Reason: punctuation man, punctuation
_________________________
David L. Jenson
Tuning - Repairs - Refurbishing
Jenson's Piano Service
-----

Top
#2171927 - 10/25/13 04:32 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: David Jenson]
lingus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: David Jenson
An EMP (electro magnetic pulse) will end all the arguments. Oh wait. I forgot. There's still the ET, non ET thing, so life will remain interesting even around the post nuclear-attack campfire.



Now THAT is funny. I did have one of my previous devices fail during the tuning, and it was to say the least, embarrassing. again, I wasn't trying to diminish the skill of strictly by ear tuners. I think it is an awesome craft which I cannot wait to start learning myself. I'm just saying that these little boxes with the lights on them can't be nearly as bad as some on this forum would want the world to believe. thanks to all who offered insightful ideas on the topic. And a special thanks for the very funny last one!

Top
#2171938 - 10/25/13 04:52 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: lingus
think about all the things that computers can do today, is it so impossible to consider that a computer is capable of setting a colorful temperament on a piano.

How is the computer attached to the piano?

It seems to me that somewhere in the whole situation there must be a human with ears. A computer doesn't set any temperament and the ETD readings are a comparison to the calculations of a human who designed a temperament. The ETD has trained you to "listen." What you need to learn is a tuning sequence (method) and apply what you have already learned to hear.
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2171945 - 10/25/13 05:03 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
lingus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 40
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: lingus
think about all the things that computers can do today, is it so impossible to consider that a computer is capable of setting a colorful temperament on a piano.

How is the computer attached to the piano?

It seems to me that somewhere in the whole situation there must be a human withe ars. A computer doesn't set any temperament and the ETD readings are a comparison to the calculations of a human who designed a temperament. The ETD has trained you to "listen." What you need to learn is a tuning sequence (method) and apply what you have already learned to hear.


thanks Marty, that is a great comment that really has me thinking. That is something else that I forgot to ask which I wanted to, and obviously this is something that I would like to know exclusively from the aural tuners, considering that I am already experienced in setting pns, setting strings, and tuning beatless unisons by ear, have I already conquered part of the Battle of learning to tune by ear? Or is it still going to be like stepping into a completely new world?

Top
#2171952 - 10/25/13 05:09 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
pyropaul Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/16/10
Posts: 190
Loc: Montreal
That novel self-tuning piano does, of course, have the "computer attached and doing the tuning" - but it is just replicating the tuning that was stored after a human tuner tuned it.

Top
#2171955 - 10/25/13 05:14 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
lingus Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/13/12
Posts: 40
my bad, my bad, I should have specified,I made the computer comment on the assumption that we all understand that computers only do what humans program them to. There, clarified!

Top
#2171973 - 10/25/13 05:43 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
Herr Weiss Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/26/12
Posts: 192
Loc: New York, N.Y.
I took a 9 month "introduction" course way back in 1985. Learned to do minor repairs, how regulation works and most important, how to use the tuning hammer properly. The tuning part left me scratching my head. Upon the end of the course, even with an original Sight-O-Tuner(serial#8008S) that is still ticking, I felt tuning aurally was beyond me. Not wanting to let clients down and having to depend on the machine alone, I decided not to enter the field blindly and unprepared. I wanted to use my ears not just my eyes. Went to Art school, instead of facing this paper tiger. LOL.

Forward to the present:

With the help of Piano Forum's immense collection of archived instructions/tips from all the unselfish members (a special nod to Mr. Bremmer), I can now say that I understand how to travel the aural route and success or failure depends on my hard work.

Good luck lingus, see you on the road.

Herr Weiss
_________________________
.

"Respond intelligently, even to unintelligent treatment."
-Lao Tzu

Top
#2171975 - 10/25/13 05:47 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1812
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Who says an ETD isn't good enough?

I do.

I have no problem with ETD so long as it's limitations are recognized. These are well documented. We need not go into a 100th iteration. No one understands this more than the lady who tunes our piano. Ms Sisson uses one of the better ETDs to help set the pitch and bearing. It's only a time-saver. The balance of the instrument she tunes aurally and does a masterful job at it. She is fully capable of dismissing the ETD altogether.

An ETD is not as good as that which must listen to, approve of, and derive pleasure from the final product. Machines don't listen to and enjoy piano music. People do.

One primary concern with ETD use are tuners who cannot hear the necessary things in string, unisons, intervals, octaves, et al. in toto, and who must rely utterly upon it. They proceed at both their own peril and those whom they serve. Don't tell me that the totally electronic-reliant do great tunings. I can read. More to the point, I can hear.

Of concern also are those (like me) who never bothered to learn ETD. For us the potential for background noise is an ever-present danger. Try as we might to arrange things so all will be quiet, sometimes it doesn't work out that way and with a deadline looming, we're forced to either proceed at peril, do a costly reschedule or, that being impossible, walk away. Limitations notwithstanding, ETD is better than attempting aural alone over vacuum cleaners, leaf blowers and screaming kids.

Therefore, it would be a good idea for tuning students everywhere to learn both - aural and ETD. Moreover, don't just learn, become proficient. Everyone will benefit.

And so, what is good enough? Equal Temperament. Unless you happen to be in one of the few HT niche markets, that's where most tuners earn the majority of their monies because, from Baroque through Modern, Equal Temperament is the most music-friendly for single-piano individuals and families of varied musical tastes. Therefore, from the outset you should learn it well.

Later, if you wish to add other temperaments to your skill package, that's your prerogative. Just be mindful that many techs spend numerous years to virtually a lifetime trying to master just one temperament.

In my view, Equal Temperament comes under so much fire -especially from those beginning - because it is the most difficult to do well. Those who take the time to succeed at it become of good reputation: known for consistently reliable work. It is doubtful that any will achieve this level of proficiency while spending countless hours dabbling in dozens of temperaments. In all likelihood, they'll become jack of all temperaments, master of none.

Besides, if one is going to learn both aural and ETD tuning proficiently, such will be time consuming enough as it is.

ETD or software can create, display and store every temperament under the sun, true enough. It is, indeed, a marvel of 20th/21st century wizardry. But that's all it can do. To go forward properly and with consistency, requires more.

Much more.


Edited by bkw58 (10/26/13 07:28 AM)
Edit Reason: clairty
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

Top
#2171998 - 10/25/13 06:31 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
beethoven986 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/20/09
Posts: 3360
Originally Posted By: lingus
That is something else that I forgot to ask which I wanted to, and obviously this is something that I would like to know exclusively from the aural tuners, considering that I am already experienced in setting pns, setting strings, and tuning beatless unisons by ear, have I already conquered part of the Battle of learning to tune by ear? Or is it still going to be like stepping into a completely new world?


Like you, I started out using an ETD... in my case, Verituner. I love Verituner; it is so easy to use that one could probably train a monkey to tune a piano by using it, and using custom tuning files can make the pianos sound really, really great. However, I wanted to learn to tune completely aurally, too, because it is a valuable skill to have (your ears don't rely on batteries that die, screens that crack, and you can't forget them at home). I think the answer to your question is a resounding yes. If I were you, I would continue to tune the temperament by ETD and learn how to tune octaves aurally. Once you are comfortable with that, learn to tune the temperament.
_________________________
B.Mus. Piano Performance 2009
M.Mus. Piano Performance & Literature 2011
PTG Associate Member
Certified Dampp-Chaser installer

Top
#2172200 - 10/26/13 05:45 AM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
VT is a good learning tool helping the tuner to temper himself.

It allows to concentrate on unison and learn to have stability (if properly used)

Now once you are mastering unison you can tune octaves and slow beating intervals precisely (if you learned to listen to slow beating and you not only concentrate on killing anything that looks like a beat) I can tune very consistent octaves and maintain the temperament spread without any interval check, the ETD is totally useless to me to do so and it is slower.

Now many ETD push you to listen too partially to the tone, because they show you the second or 3d partial, your ears focus on them and tend to filter the rest.
The VT100 is different in that aspect (dont't know for the cell phone versions)

It is also a productivity tool but the time to open it, open the file, verify, is not spend tuning.

I admit I did not took the time to use all the features, as the small tests I did showed it may need more refinements.

I begun to be more attentive to my 5 ths while doing a 3M stack temperament, and then we begin to disagree more.

I listened close to some of the best tuners in Europe and tried to reproduce what they did. ALl where listening quietly and close to the 5ths , making them luminous.

The VT100 was not a big help to do so, we did not really disagree often, but something had to be done on my side that make the display was not stopped (that is also a crazy idea to want to stop a display, as if a musical pitch on a piano was an electronic tone.

I noticed then how the use of the VT had changed my listening :
I had lost the ability to listen to the fifths precisely, after some years of use of ETDS

It changed for the best, precision wise and to limit a little the amount of stretch I tended to use

For the worse when it comes to the life and coloration in the tuning.

Due to that wish to stop the display, the unison was tuned too hard, mostly because I listened a little the same for unison and for one string.

I may say the pianists and customers where always '(seem to me) very happy with the congruence of the tuning.

Once one have learned to add the little thing that miss with the etd (even in temperament) he just can do the same job without it.

Working tuning 5-8 pianos a day I could not loose 10 minutes each tuning to verify I was agreeing with my ETD.

I may say I made once an experiment tuning a S&S D note by note (just relying on the VT100) and showed that to Fabbrini that was tuning on stage just near.

it failed miserably, the tuning was full of unevenesses.

My pin setting was at years of what I do today, I may say, it hold a concerto, I "never" had problems with notes going out of tune really much but a more tight and more precise method have been shown to me since then.

I was tuning leaving the pins to be tightened by the pianist (I mean they had some torque but not deep enough, so they all slept in position while the piano was tuned and I find them firmer after the concert.)

The method of stressing the pin raise the sensibility, and also allows the pin to have some energy to hep you move the string, as when driving the car there is something that help you to turn the wheels, that is the same impression.

I always thought the pins had to "jump " in place and ther is a part of truth, but you can really take the control on the shape and stress of the pin. And then you do whatever you want with it and it does not move anymore , any direction.

That will be explained in the 3 days training Alfredo will give at the ITEMM - I will have more concurrence smile

PS of course many concert tuners do so yet, but concert pianos are tuned so often any technique can be used, small impacts springing the pin, etc.

Only with large corrections or pitch changes the tuner have to really modify the pin location and re install stress from there.





Edited by Olek (10/26/13 07:38 AM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2172259 - 10/26/13 09:48 AM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
William Steward Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/04/11
Posts: 12
Loc: Cayman Islands
Isaac - as always I enjoy reading your posts and agree about Verituner. It has allowed me to focus on tuning stability and have enjoyed your related posts on hammer technique. An ETD is a tool like any other in the case, but this one has a lot of depth that is probably ignored by the majority of users. The ability to modify the weighting and setpoints of the coincident partials has allowed me to better understand on a scientific level what my ears were hearing (or not hearing). Reading Rick Badassin's book "On Pitch" helped connect the dots for me. Ron Koval's excellent posts here and on the Verituner forum have got me actively experimenting more with this powerful tool. In tuning unlike many other pursuits, the end certainly justifies the means.
_________________________
William Steward

Top
#2172290 - 10/26/13 10:59 AM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
RonTuner Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 1674
Loc: Chicagoland
I suppose just like any service, there can be a market for all kinds of approaches/results...

How pleased one is with the final result of a tuning is determined by how the tuning is tested/listened to..

The ETDs are designed to "listen'/compare/balance the tuning based on a number of factors - some under the techs control, some just as part of the measuring and calculation process.

As I wrote in another thread, I did run a test/class for a PTG chapter where the same model of piano was tuned using each of the popular ETDs at that time. It was interesting to see that one seemed to tilt the tuning to M3rds progression over the others. The Verituner seemed to be trying to balance all the intervals...

What is found in practice is that aural techs that claim that machine tunings are too sterile usually aren't tuning a clinical ET, but some slight variation that satisfies their testing protocol. If they maximize the M3rds over any other intervals, or choose to "follow the 4ths" or focus mostly on the 5ths, other intervals will be allowed to go awry. But since the tuning is tested with the same intervals that are used to created it, they "prove" the beauty of the tuning...

It is natural then, for example, for an aural tech that focuses on mostly one interval to be unhappy with the Verituner calculation, which balances between many intervals. Or, an aural tech that checks with the progression of M3rds would probably most agreee with the SAT-calculated tunings.

Lost in the details is what was hinted at in the first post - we techs don't often listen to (or there isn't any discussion) what the musicians like or dislike about a tuning style, using that information to guide the evolution of the tuning approach and the resultant sound of the piano.

Ron Koval
_________________________
Piano/instrument technician
www.ronkoval.com
@ronkoval

my piano videos:
http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=drwoodwind


Top
#2172300 - 10/26/13 11:19 AM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: RonTuner]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Lost in the details is what was hinted at in the first post - we techs don't often listen to (or there isn't any discussion) what the musicians like or dislike about a tuning style, using that information to guide the evolution of the tuning approach and the resultant sound of the piano.

Ron Koval

_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
#2172306 - 10/26/13 11:26 AM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France


THE VT100 balanced so many things that at some point it loose musical meaning indeed.


Your idea to weight intervals with the machine and left aside the partial matching beats beats theory was a neat one, I begun to test it , but lost confidence in your enthusiastic affirmations on tuning after seeing your (old, you may have changed) videos on tuning and heard the result of your job.


Some have even been shown (not by me) on another public forum as a sample of wrong tuning instructions "what not to do" , go figure...

We have so different taste, it should not, tuning should be widely the same everywhere, but I cant refrain to witness of differences.

I prefer fresh milk to sterilized one, for instance, the pianos may allow for that, too . With a very smooth spectrra and limited colors I understand how artefacts are used at to give some life in the tuning.

I also was near master tuners and could analyse and learn from them, they could not help me on how to use a VT100 in an artistic way.

But mostly I know I can recognize a finely sounding tuning, as I have the luck of being embedded in pianos and music since my early age. The musicians sometime know how to express something about the tuning, it is worth asking them, but most are just confident in the tuner.

Pianos are "playeable" by a fine pianits 90% of the time whatever the precision or quality of the tuning.

VT100 is a very nice toy , with some computing limitations, and also the display can be induced in error by partials having errors.
The tuner finally is confident in the machine, tune all notes and oh : surprise ! it does sound in tune !

In my tuning I focus on 5ths 4ths octaves 12ths, etc but all intervals are checked of course. In case of problems some are favored. among others. progressiveness of M3ds, 6ths etc is a wonderful thing but they have a range of acceptability .

having 2 Major chords that have a similar beat rate is not a problem if it allows to keep consonance active in slow beating intervals,for instance.

Relating that to the respect of ET "rules" is OT in my opinion.
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2172322 - 10/26/13 11:52 AM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: lingus]
Jbyron Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/17/10
Posts: 518
Loc: USA
I use Verituner and also know how to tune aurally. When I do my very best aural only tuning and then take out my Verituner to go over the tuning ( I do this occasionally for fun) I find that there are no variations between the two, usually. If there are any variations at all they are so incredibly minute that after the piano settles for a day or so they no longer exist anyway. I use the Verituner because I really enjoy tuning that way. I enjoy the computer and ear together method more than aural only tuning. It is a time and energy saver also, much like using a GPS -- you still have to be a good driver, you still have to operate the vehicle and the device to get around. Having said all that, I think the key to an excellent tuning is unison quality. Even when using the Verituner I tune all unisons strictly by ear. Quality unison tuning skills can take years to acquire. The way the pins are set affects the pianos tone in more ways than most people know. It's not simply creating a pure unison, its setting the pin both for stability as well as tone.

There are a couple of aural only tuners in my area that have always gotten work because they advertise as such, but their tunings aren't so good. I'm not sure if this is because they've lost some hearing ability over the years or they simply haven't reached a very high level of skill. For their customers' sake they should be using a high-quality ETD, IMO.
_________________________
Tuner-Technician



Top
#2172326 - 10/26/13 11:58 AM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Olek Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/14/08
Posts: 7904
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Lost in the details is what was hinted at in the first post - we techs don't often listen to (or there isn't any discussion) what the musicians like or dislike about a tuning style, using that information to guide the evolution of the tuning approach and the resultant sound of the piano.

Ron Koval



This is an absolute joke, I am sorry. Musicians know a little about high treble more or less stretched but nothing about eventual "tuning styles" those are just toys to make the life of tuners more interesting.

Then if you tune concert pianos, you generally are not the only tuner, so you are at last as attentive to your colleagues than to musicians.

The concert piano have a very classical standard tuning and iof there are somethings musicians can ask it is about notes that have a different tone, or a key that does not feel the same as the neighbors.
You can propose to make a more tight or a more open tone, but justness is more or less a non question.

Now when you have heard the rehearsal (or if you know the repertory enough) you can tune the piano in a way that suit better the music played.

Exceptionally pianists ask you for something, close harmony of much presence in the soprano, but they would find it a lack of respect (does not impeach them to comment when they are with other musicians wink

When you ask they eventually have something in mind, as Louie Lortie telling the French tuners do not stretch enough the high treble and asking to be attentive to that.

Asking "do you want a plain tuning or something lively" , I would not do)

What I did find with the computations of the VT is that some weight was given to notes very far from the temperament, that influenced it. So the scaling mistake is reported and smoothed up to the temperament zone, while it is more normal to have a strong temperament and deal with accidents later.


Edited by Olek (10/26/13 12:00 PM)
_________________________
It is critical that you call your Senators and Representatives and ask them to cosponsor S. 2587 and H.R. 5052. Getting your legislators to cosponsor these bills


Top
#2172331 - 10/26/13 12:08 PM Re: Who says an ETD isn't good enough? [Re: Olek]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Originally Posted By: Olek
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Originally Posted By: RonTuner
Lost in the details is what was hinted at in the first post - we techs don't often listen to (or there isn't any discussion) what the musicians like or dislike about a tuning style, using that information to guide the evolution of the tuning approach and the resultant sound of the piano.

Ron Koval



This is an absolute joke, I am sorry. Musicians know a little about high treble more or less stretched but nothing about eventual "tuning styles" those are just toys to make the life of tuners more interesting.

Isaac,

Try reading what Ron wrote and not what you read into it. Just where did he say anything about stretch, or temperament, or any of the things you addressed?

A Joke? Hardly!
_________________________
Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Piano World 
What's Hot!!

Trade Regrets:
Barry "Bear" Arnaut

(ad) Yamaha
Yamaha
Ad (Seiler/Knabe)
Knabe Pianos
(ad) HAILUN Pianos
Hailun Pianos - Click for More
(125ad) Dampp Chaser
Dampp Chaser Piano Life Saver
(ad) Lindeblad Piano
Lindeblad Piano Restoration
(ad) Piano Music Sale - Dover Publications
Piano Music Sale
Sheet Music Plus (125)
Sheet Music Plus Featured Sale
New Topics - Multiple Forums
Keyframe corner rounded at una corda spring contact
by sopranojam85
11/23/14 12:04 AM
Yamaha Grantouch GT 10
by Valhalun
11/22/14 11:55 PM
Hamelin plays Gershwin
by beet31425
11/22/14 11:02 PM
Yamaha CP1 Vs CP4 Regardless of Price and weight :)
by Tylor
11/22/14 10:21 PM
Which part of the chord rests
by Anita Potter
11/22/14 10:08 PM
Forum Stats
77013 Members
42 Forums
159279 Topics
2339804 Posts

Max Online: 15252 @ 03/21/10 11:39 PM
Gift Ideas for Music Lovers!
Find the Perfect Gift for the Music Lovers on your List!
Visit our online store today.

Visit our online store for gifts for music lovers

 
Help keep the forums up and running with a donation, any amount is appreciated!
Or by becoming a Subscribing member! Thank-you.
Donate   Subscribe
 
Our Piano Related Classified Ads
|
Dealers | Tuners | Lessons | Movers | Restorations | Pianos For Sale | Sell Your Piano |

Advertise on Piano World
| Subscribe | Piano World | PianoSupplies.com | Advertise on Piano World | Donate | Link to Us | Classifieds |
| |Contact | Privacy | Legal | About Us | Site Map | Free Newsletter | Press Room |


copyright 1997 - 2014 Piano World ® all rights reserved
No part of this site may be reproduced without prior written permission