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#2170752 - 10/23/13 05:05 PM Pramberger PS 185
RaindropPrelude Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/12/09
Posts: 77
Loc: Calgary
For sale for 12,500. This seems kind of high to me, but as I am not familiar with this brand until recently I was hoping to get a second opinion. Seller says price is 'firm'.

Thank you!
_________________________
If they cut off both hands, I will compose music anyway holding the pen in my teeth. - Shostakovich

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#2170760 - 10/23/13 05:24 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Jean Claude Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 623
Loc: France


12 1/2 big ones for a Young Chang with a fancy name? Keep your stash in your pocket; you can buy a proper piano for less.

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#2171020 - 10/24/13 04:14 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
ventil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 149
Loc: TX
You did not mention age or condition, but that price does seem high.

Two years ago, I bought a brand new PS-185. After the trade-in allowance for my old piano, my out-of-pocket was less than that.

Pramberger is made by Samick now. If it it's old enough to be Young Chang (10+ years), 12.5k would surely be too high.

Not sure why Jean Claude does not considered it a "proper" piano, though.


Edited by ventil (10/24/13 04:27 AM)
Edit Reason: added historical info
_________________________
David M. Boothe, CAS

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#2171024 - 10/24/13 04:30 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
musicpassion Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/30/12
Posts: 1611
Loc: California, USA
Originally Posted By: RaindropPrelude
For sale for 12,500. This seems kind of high to me, but as I am not familiar with this brand until recently I was hoping to get a second opinion. Seller says price is 'firm'.

You don't mention how old it is or condition. But around my location one wouldn't pay 12.5K for any used Pramberger.

I've heard pianos are more expensive in Canada, however.

I always laugh a bit when people say the price is "firm". It's like they're bound and determined that they are owed this money and they're gonna get it. Makes me want to call and offer him $50.00.

And opinion on the brand: Obviously Jean hates it. I've only encountered a Pramberger once but had a better experience than Jean apparently did. I felt it was a reasonable lower end consumer grade piano (but not in the same class as Yamaha C or something like that, at least IMHO)
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#2171055 - 10/24/13 07:08 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Jolly Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 14058
Loc: Louisiana
If it's new, I think you're in the right ballpark.

While it's not a Yamaha C, they're still pretty decent pianos. A definite upgrade over Young Chang and the basic Pramberger. In fact, Piano Buyer lists the PS 175 as one of the better values out there. Speaking of Piano Buyer, follow the link on this page and you can read the company profiles on Young Chang and Pramberger, which contain some good information.

I also think PS series may be the last pianos that Pramberger designed for Young Chang.

I wouldn't be ashamed to have one sitting in my house.
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Over 1,000,000 posts where pianists discuss everything. And nothing.

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#2171125 - 10/24/13 09:07 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10728
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
If new, the price is right and the piano is very nice.

This isn't a YC as their models began with PG.
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Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2171227 - 10/24/13 12:06 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: Jean Claude]
Carey Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 7613
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Jean Claude


12 1/2 big ones for a Young Chang with a fancy name? Keep your stash in your pocket; you can buy a proper piano for less.


The 6'1" PS185 is part of the Samick (not Young Chang) Pramberger Signature Series. New it sells for around $16-$17K - and is rated in the Piano Buyer as "mid-range consumer grade" instrument. $12.5K is not an unreasonable amount to ask for the piano if it is fairly new and in great shape. Whether someone is willing to pay $12.5 for it - or any piano - is another matter.

But the point is that there are different grades of Samick built Prambergers...as was also the case when Young Chang built instruments using the same name. The "best" of these models (built by either Young Chang or Samick) are not in the same league as High Quality Performance Grade instruments - but they do compare well to the popular Intermediate Grade Yamaha C and Kawai RX pianos.
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Kawai CA-65
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#2171477 - 10/24/13 08:06 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: ventil]
shaolin95 Offline
Full Member

Registered: 10/12/11
Posts: 477
Originally Posted By: ventil

Not sure why Jean Claude does not considered it a "proper" piano, though.

So your snob alarm did not go off when you read that? wink
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*Young Chang Y185 6'-1"

*Baldwin Hamilton Studio '67 (gone)

*Young Chang Y150 (Del F design) (gone)

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#2171491 - 10/24/13 08:23 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: shaolin95]
Carey Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 7613
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: shaolin95
Originally Posted By: ventil

Not sure why Jean Claude does not considered it a "proper" piano, though.

So your snob alarm did not go off when you read that? wink


Jean Claude owns a Sauter - which I assume meets his definition of a "proper" piano. wink
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Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2171657 - 10/25/13 04:21 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Jean Claude Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 623
Loc: France


Anybody who supposes that the differences between a YC or Samick and a Sauter are merely a matter of snobbery ought to try playing examples of each.

Having said that, I agree that my first comment was a bit harsh so please read 'better' for 'proper'.

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#2171764 - 10/25/13 10:47 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
KurtZ Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 1564
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
It should be noted as we toss around the words Samick Pramberger that the pianos made by Samick are NOT Joseph Pramberger designs. After Joe died, Samick acquired the rights to the name "Pramberger" but the designs actually done by JP stayed with Young Chang and were the basis of the original Albert Weber series.

Kurt
_________________________
One who does what the Friend wants done
will never need a friend.

Rumi

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#2171777 - 10/25/13 11:22 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: KurtZ]
Carey Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 7613
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: KurtZ
It should be noted as we toss around the words Samick Pramberger that the pianos made by Samick are NOT Joseph Pramberger designs. After Joe died, Samick acquired the rights to the name "Pramberger" but the designs actually done by JP stayed with Young Chang and were the basis of the original Albert Weber series.


Which means, I suppose, that if you really want a "Pramberger" you need to buy an Albert Weber. It is easy to understand why the average consumer is confused by all of this. grin
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Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2171782 - 10/25/13 11:30 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: Jean Claude]
Carey Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 7613
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Jean Claude

Anybody who supposes that the differences between a YC or Samick and a Sauter are merely a matter of snobbery ought to try playing examples of each.


Of course there is a difference between a 6'1" YC or Samick that sells new for $16K and a 6'1" Sauter that sells new for $94K. Folks should simply be encouraged to purchase the best piano they can afford.
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Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2171822 - 10/25/13 12:50 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: Carey]
Jean Claude Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 623
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Jean Claude

Anybody who supposes that the differences between a YC or Samick and a Sauter are merely a matter of snobbery ought to try playing examples of each.


Of course there is a difference between a 6'1" YC or Samick that sells new for $16K and a 6'1" Sauter that sells new for $94K. Folks should simply be encouraged to purchase the best piano they can afford.


That is exactly what I was trying to do.

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#2171827 - 10/25/13 12:58 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Inlanding Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 1931
Loc: Colorado
I tuned all sorts of new Prambergers at a local store over the period of two years. Some of them were pretty nice and musical, others didn't seem as well constructed or well quality controlled. There was a fair amount of variability and some required lots of attention to get them to sound musical and to play evenly across the register.

As for price - you have to figure out how it fits along in the price-value continuum by playing as many as possible.
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#2171979 - 10/25/13 05:56 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: Jean Claude]
Carey Online   content
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 7613
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Jean Claude
Originally Posted By: carey
Originally Posted By: Jean Claude

Anybody who supposes that the differences between a YC or Samick and a Sauter are merely a matter of snobbery ought to try playing examples of each.


Of course there is a difference between a 6'1" YC or Samick that sells new for $16K and a 6'1" Sauter that sells new for $94K. Folks should simply be encouraged to purchase the best piano they can afford.


That is exactly what I was trying to do.


Understood !! thumb

And you're a lucky fella to own a Sauter. smile
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Mason and Hamlin BB - 91640
Kawai CA-65
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2171987 - 10/25/13 06:12 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Steve Cohen Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/26/01
Posts: 10728
Loc: Maryland/DC/No. VA
My understanding is that Young Chang no longer uses Joe's features in any of their pianos.

Most are being built based on Del Fandrich's designs/

Del, can you clarify?
_________________________
Piano Industry Consultant- http://www.linkedin.com/pub/steve-cohen/6/b92/b80

Consultant & Contributing Editor - Acoustic & Digital Piano Buyer

Jasons Music
Maryland/DC/No. VA
Since 1937.

www.jasonsmusic.com
My postings, unless stated otherwise, are my personal opinions, not those of my clients.

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#2171989 - 10/25/13 06:14 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 463
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: RaindropPrelude
For sale for 12,500. This seems kind of high to me, but as I am not familiar with this brand until recently I was hoping to get a second opinion. Seller says price is 'firm'.

Thank you!



You may do better - or not. Agree with what others have said - except that this isn't a proper piano. It's your ears, hands and wallet that need to make the decision.

I own a Young Chang built Pramberger JP185 (2002 sn#) specifically sought out for its fundamental tonal palette without brightness. That said - it was nine years old at the time, in pristine condition and I paid 8,500. Although my piano budget was considerably higher (25-30K) I'm quite satisfied because it is the one I love most. (Other than that Bösendorfer 280 - but that is never going to happen. grin )
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Piano is hard work from beginning to forever. Accept this as truth or risk a quick exit with tail between legs.



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#2171992 - 10/25/13 06:19 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Minor clarification: Though the definition of "proper" is the same in British and American, the connotation is very different. In American there is an understanding of "snobbery" when using the word which is lacking across the pond.
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2171996 - 10/25/13 06:27 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: Minnesota Marty]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 463
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Minor clarification: Though the definition of "proper" is the same in British and American, the connotation is very different. In American there is an understanding of "snobbery" when using the word which is lacking across the pond.


Yes, and a morceau de francais background gives an even more abhorrent "unclean" feel to it when hearing a piano isn't "proper".
_________________________


Piano is hard work from beginning to forever. Accept this as truth or risk a quick exit with tail between legs.



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#2172005 - 10/25/13 06:55 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: Tararex]
Jean Claude Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 623
Loc: France
Originally Posted By: Tararex
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Minor clarification: Though the definition of "proper" is the same in British and American, the connotation is very different. In American there is an understanding of "snobbery" when using the word which is lacking across the pond.


Yes, and a morceau de francais background gives an even more abhorrent "unclean" feel to it when hearing a piano isn't "proper".


I am very far from having a clue what this post is supposed to mean. Perhaps you would be kind enough to amplify.

J-C.

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#2172007 - 10/25/13 06:58 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Minnesota Marty Offline

Platinum Supporter until October 5 2014


Registered: 05/15/12
Posts: 7439
Loc: Rochester MN
Which one of us?
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Marty in Minnesota

It's much easier to bash a Steinway than it is to play one.

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#2172010 - 10/25/13 07:06 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Jean Claude Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 09/18/11
Posts: 623
Loc: France

Yours is entirely clear Marty, it is Tararex's contribution which has me confused.

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#2172021 - 10/25/13 07:39 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
malkin Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/18/09
Posts: 3816
Loc: *sigh* Salt Lake City
The French word "propre" is translated to English "clean."
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Everything in moderation, including moderation. --Oscar Wilde

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#2172045 - 10/25/13 08:36 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Bosendorff Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 08/11/12
Posts: 606
Originally Posted By: RaindropPrelude
For sale for 12,500. This seems kind of high to me, but as I am not familiar with this brand until recently I was hoping to get a second opinion. Seller says price is 'firm'.

Thank you!



Hello Raindropprelude, if the PS-185 is recent and in good condition, it could be an OK price. Last year, I tried a brand new Pramberger PS-175 and thought it was a good candidate. At that dealer, it was just besides a similar priced brand new 5'6" Heintzman. Both pianos sounded quite similar (maybe because they were prepared by the same tech). I thought the Pramberger sounded a bit more "classical" (less bright sound) while the Heintzman was slightly more bright.

My usual recommendation is : try as many different pianos as you can in your budget - after a while, one or a few of them will stay at the top of your list. Take your time - maybe the Pramberger will end up the one you will choose.
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Dampp Chaser electronic controller

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#2172046 - 10/25/13 08:43 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: Steve Cohen]
KurtZ Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 1564
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
Originally Posted By: Steve Cohen
My understanding is that Young Chang no longer uses Joe's features in any of their pianos.

Most are being built based on Del Fandrich's designs/



I knew that Steve and I meant to add that info. In my mind, I probably thought it could be inferred it with the words "basis" and "original" but they weren't sufficient. Thanks for the assist.

Kurt
_________________________
One who does what the Friend wants done
will never need a friend.

Rumi

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#2172110 - 10/25/13 11:43 PM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: Jean Claude]
Tararex Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/27/11
Posts: 463
Loc: Middle Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: Jean Claude
Originally Posted By: Tararex
Originally Posted By: Minnesota Marty
Minor clarification: Though the definition of "proper" is the same in British and American, the connotation is very different. In American there is an understanding of "snobbery" when using the word which is lacking across the pond.


Yes, and a morceau de francais background gives an even more abhorrent "unclean" feel to it when hearing a piano isn't "proper".


I am very far from having a clue what this post is supposed to mean. Perhaps you would be kind enough to amplify.

J-C.


Hi J-C,

I was further illustrating that our internal "auto-translate" sometimes grievously fails even when a post is written in perfectly fine English. I peruse certain networking documentation directly from the original language (French) and have a working - but not fluent - knowledge of the language.

As MM pointed out 'proper' is not generally used by Americans as it was in your original post unless we are trying to be rude. On my first read I noticed your name and location and my "auto-translate" wiped away the rude "proper" and substituted an even worse translation. (Did he just call my piano dirty?) laugh
_________________________


Piano is hard work from beginning to forever. Accept this as truth or risk a quick exit with tail between legs.



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#2172138 - 10/26/13 01:41 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
ventil Offline
Full Member

Registered: 12/15/11
Posts: 149
Loc: TX
I was only able to spend 20 minutes with my piano today, but that was enough time to realize that it is a proper piano. It never serves red wine with the fish course, and always knows which fork to use.
_________________________
David M. Boothe, CAS

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#2172248 - 10/26/13 09:25 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
Rickster Offline
Yikes! 10000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/25/06
Posts: 10502
Loc: Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: ventil
I was only able to spend 20 minutes with my piano today, but that was enough time to realize that it is a proper piano. It never serves red wine with the fish course, and always knows which fork to use.

In my view, either the YC or the Samick Pramberger models are nice (proper) pianos to own.

Also, FWIW, there is a bit of brand snobbery that goes on here on the forum. I suppose it can be human nature to an extent, when the elite look down their noses at the less fortunate.

The way I see it, any piano that you can afford is a "proper" piano, as long as it is in tune. smile

Rick
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Piano enthusiast and amateur musician: "Treat others the way you would like to be treated". Yamaha C7. YouTube Channel

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#2172301 - 10/26/13 11:23 AM Re: Pramberger PS 185 [Re: RaindropPrelude]
KurtZ Offline
1000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/13/10
Posts: 1564
Loc: The Heart of Screenland
Amen Rick,

The pianos for the rest of us whose most extravagant dreams extend as far as a NEW Albert Weber, Ritmueller, Hailun et. al. We are lucky that we're living in a golden age of quality improvement in entry level and consumer pianos. It also helps to remember that equipment forums are populated by an unrepresentative proportion of gear fetishists relative to the population of players who aren't so hung up on gear and happily play for enrichment, teach, or accompany the congregation on their Story and Clarks, Shaeffer and Sons, Nordiskas etc.

Kurt
_________________________
One who does what the Friend wants done
will never need a friend.

Rumi

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