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Joined: Sep 2013
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Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate? Just wondering if I should join or not...  I am a composer, and yes, feel free to join. I have no problem having this discussion as long as it doesn't escalate into a flame war. Not sure whether you are inviting to discuss or not with your "absolutely wrong" and "IMNSHO". So I'll stay out. 
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 309
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Joined: Sep 2013
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Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate? Just wondering if I should join or not... EDIT: Polyphonist: music does not exist to move you. There are other reasons as well... I can see where you are going. That's one main reason I hold Scriabin above Rakhmaninov in terms of composition skills.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
9000 Post Club Member
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9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328 |
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate? Just wondering if I should join or not... I am a composer, and yes, feel free to join. I have no problem having this discussion as long as it doesn't escalate into a flame war. Not sure whether you are inviting to discuss or not with your "absolutely wrong" and "IMNSHO". So I'll stay out. Just because I have a strong opinion doesn't mean I don't want to discuss it. And "absolutely wrong" was the wrong phrase to use, sorry.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
9000 Post Club Member
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9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328 |
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate? Just wondering if I should join or not... EDIT: Polyphonist: music does not exist to move you. There are other reasons as well... I can see where you are going. That's one main reason I hold Scriabin above Rakhmaninov in terms of composition skills. What reason?
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,562
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
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Ok. I'll be wearing this little baby and we can start: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qbN0A_FRJ...lpaper+Backgrounds+by_biggreenpepper.jpgI think that when "classifying" composers you can go in two main different directions: a. How much 'niceness' is in his music. What great music he wrote. b. How much 'creativity' is in his music. How original he was. In the case of Rachmaninoff I think that in "a" he was simply brilliant. His music is great, is heard all over the place, people love it and pianists love it. - As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine). Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative...
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
9000 Post Club Member
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9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328 |
As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine).
Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative... Okay, now we're getting somewhere. The part I disagree with here is your assumption that the fact that Rachmaninoff was a conservative automatically means he wasn't creative, and recycled ideas, which is just not true of him. And then for some reason you bring your own experience into the discussion, which is completely irrelevant. Bach was a conservative also. Does that make Bach inferior to Scarlatti and Telemann?
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 335
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Yes, that was just piano music. I've heard his 1st and 2nd symphonies, and I liked them a lot. But they do not move me in the way Rach's 2nd does. Go listen to the Poem of Ecstasy and Prometheus. While his first two symphonies are great, I don't think they compare to his other 3 (if you want to count the latter 2 as symphonies). There's nothing better than the climaxes of both of those two pieces (especially Prometheus).
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410 |
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate? Just wondering if I should join or not... EDIT: Polyphonist: music does not exist to move you. There are other reasons as well... I can see where you are going. That's one main reason I hold Scriabin above Rakhmaninov in terms of composition skills. You might think Scriabin was a better composer, but my point is their achievement as composers is far beyond that of even a great pianist or conductor
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410 |
Ok. I'll be wearing this little baby and we can start: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qbN0A_FRJ...lpaper+Backgrounds+by_biggreenpepper.jpgI think that when "classifying" composers you can go in two main different directions: a. How much 'niceness' is in his music. What great music he wrote. b. How much 'creativity' is in his music. How original he was. In the case of Rachmaninoff I think that in "a" he was simply brilliant. His music is great, is heard all over the place, people love it and pianists love it. - As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine). Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative... "b" is called "ego"
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,562
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,562 |
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha...
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410
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Joined: Nov 2007
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antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha... It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 309
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Full Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 309 |
Ok. I'll be wearing this little baby and we can start: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qbN0A_FRJ...lpaper+Backgrounds+by_biggreenpepper.jpgI think that when "classifying" composers you can go in two main different directions: a. How much 'niceness' is in his music. What great music he wrote. b. How much 'creativity' is in his music. How original he was. In the case of Rachmaninoff I think that in "a" he was simply brilliant. His music is great, is heard all over the place, people love it and pianists love it. - As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine). Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative... "b" is called "ego" So are you insinuating what makes Rakhmaninov a great composer is just how nice his compositions sound?
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Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 309
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 309 |
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha... It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry Alright. I'm out. This is going nowhere.
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410 |
Ok. I'll be wearing this little baby and we can start: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qbN0A_FRJ...lpaper+Backgrounds+by_biggreenpepper.jpgI think that when "classifying" composers you can go in two main different directions: a. How much 'niceness' is in his music. What great music he wrote. b. How much 'creativity' is in his music. How original he was. In the case of Rachmaninoff I think that in "a" he was simply brilliant. His music is great, is heard all over the place, people love it and pianists love it. - As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine). Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative... "b" is called "ego" So are you insinuating what makes Rakhmaninov a great composer is just how nice his compositions sound? I'm not but he is
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,562
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,562 |
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha... It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry lol. It's agood thing I wore that flame armor... Brr...
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410 |
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha... It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry lol. It's agood thing I wore that flame armor... Brr... Why don't you provide an example from both of the categories that you outlined from your definition; perhaps something of your own
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328
9000 Post Club Member
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9000 Post Club Member
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 9,328 |
Yes, that was just piano music. I've heard his 1st and 2nd symphonies, and I liked them a lot. But they do not move me in the way Rach's 2nd does. Go listen to the Poem of Ecstasy and Prometheus. While his first two symphonies are great, I don't think they compare to his other 3 (if you want to count the latter 2 as symphonies). There's nothing better than the climaxes of both of those two pieces (especially Prometheus). Yes there is. The climax of the Rachmaninoff. Of course this is all subjective.
Regards,
Polyphonist
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,562
6000 Post Club Member
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6000 Post Club Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,562 |
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha... It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry lol. It's agood thing I wore that flame armor... Brr... Why don't you provide an example from both of the categories that you outlined from your definition; perhaps something of your own apart from the fact that Google is your friend and so is my signature, how about you tell me/us a little more about your own thoughts on the subject instead of throwing single phrase posts, huh? I mean do you disagree with the categories I provided or is it something else at hand here?
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410
Full Member
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Full Member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 410 |
Of course I disagree with your categories- yet the burden of proof is not on the one who disagrees, but the one who makes the claim. Considering the categories were created by you, it doesn't seem like you would be reluctant to present a composer or work that you think is successful because it employs the traits in category "a" and similarly examples of successful works/composers that employ category "b"
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 6,562
6000 Post Club Member
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Posts: 6,562 |
But you see the point is that I don't care to persuade anyone. I'm not passionate at all for this (in fact I did call it a silly debate to begin with. If you were a bit careful you'd have noticed that). If you are too eager to check examples of both categories, go over to these two websites: www.musica-ferrum.comwww.northbysound.comBoth contain works of mine. Check, have a listen and see if they all feel the same... :-/ But it IS up to you in the end. I offered an idea and not much else (and something that Polyphonist was eager to discuss...). 
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