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#2174757 - 10/31/13 10:51 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
But you see the point is that I don't care to persuade anyone. I'm not passionate at all for this (in fact I did call it a silly debate to begin with. If you were a bit careful you'd have noticed that).

If you are too eager to check examples of both categories, go over to these two websites:
www.musica-ferrum.com
www.northbysound.com

Both contain works of mine. Check, have a listen and see if they all feel the same... :-/

But it IS up to you in the end. I offered an idea and not much else (and something that Polyphonist was eager to discuss...). smile

I tried one of your websites and the page didn't load. Anyway, we're not discussing your music, we're discussing that of Rachmaninoff, Medtner, and Scriabin. You claim that the music of Rachmaninoff is inferior to that of Scriabin because Rachmaninoff was a conservative and refused to be swept up in the wave of atonality that permeated the first half of the twentieth century and which consumed Prokofiev, Stravinsky, and Scriabin. Well, Bach lived during the beginning of the Classical reform movement. Yet he continued to write in the High Baroque way, using his distinctive mixture of the German, Italian, and French styles. Rachmaninoff is very similar in this respect - he remained with the harmonic language and sonority of Late Romanticism, while Scriabin went on to compose vast quantities of atonal music. So, using your criteria, Scarlatti should be superior to Bach.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2174767 - 10/31/13 11:09 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
When Nikolas starts telling us all about his compositions,
I head for the hills ... having a low threshold of pain.

However, for those who mightn’t know it ...
at the Moscow Conservatory,
Rachmaninoff had Tchaikovsky as a teacher.

“At his final examination in keyboard harmony,
he was given a unique mark; the maximum possible score was five, which, as an acknowledgement of exceptional ability, could be supplemented with a plus mark.

Rachmaninoff earned a five, with four pluses
one each side, one below and one above.”

Kind regards, btb

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#2174770 - 10/31/13 11:13 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: btb]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: btb
When Nikolas starts telling us all about his compositions,
I head for the hills ... having a low threshold of pain.

However, for those who mightn’t know it ...
at the Moscow Conservatory,
Rachmaninoff had Tchaikovsky as a teacher.

“At his final examination in keyboard harmony,
he was given a unique mark; the maximum possible score was five, which, as an acknowledgement of exceptional ability, could be supplemented with a plus mark.

Rachmaninoff earned a five, with four pluses
one each side, one below and one above.”

Kind regards, btb

thumb
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2174775 - 10/31/13 11:16 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
Polyphonist, my reply and the links where towards Anthony and not yourself. Both links work over here, so not sure on what's wrong...

I just hope that nobody thinks I'm comparing myself to Rachmaninoff! That would be dead idiotic from myself! smile
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2174778 - 10/31/13 11:20 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: btb]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: btb
When Nikolas starts telling us all about his compositions,
I head for the hills ... having a low threshold of pain.

I love it!

I love the fact that you end your post with the following:

Quote:
Kind regards, btb


And thank you polyphonist as well for acknowledging that! quite kind of both of you!
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2174779 - 10/31/13 11:26 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
btb Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/21/04
Posts: 4261
Loc: Pretoria South Africa
I fear the Greeks bearing gifts!

kind regards, btb

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#2174781 - 10/31/13 11:27 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
LOL!
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2174794 - 10/31/13 11:47 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: btb
When Nikolas starts telling us all about his compositions,
I head for the hills ... having a low threshold of pain.

I love it!

I love the fact that you end your post with the following:

Quote:
Kind regards, btb


And thank you polyphonist as well for acknowledging that! quite kind of both of you!

I was referring to the story about Rachmaninoff, not his insults about your compositions.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2174800 - 10/31/13 11:55 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
I know... at least I read it this way. Still it was an opportunity for a punch below the belt! :P

After all I'm still laughing in my flame armor.
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2174804 - 10/31/13 11:58 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I know... at least I read it this way. Still it was an opportunity for a punch below the belt! :P

After all I'm still laughing in my flame armor.

You seem to really want to turn this into a flame war.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2174814 - 10/31/13 12:11 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
But you see the point is that I don't care to persuade anyone. I'm not passionate at all for this (in fact I did call it a silly debate to begin with. If you were a bit careful you'd have noticed that).

If you are too eager to check examples of both categories, go over to these two websites:
www.musica-ferrum.com
www.northbysound.com

Both contain works of mine. Check, have a listen and see if they all feel the same... :-/

But it IS up to you in the end. I offered an idea and not much else (and something that Polyphonist was eager to discuss...). smile

You're still leaving it up to me. The criteria was yours not mine, why not give an example.
I find it hard to believe you don't care if composing is your life's work

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#2174819 - 10/31/13 12:33 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5306
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I know... at least I read it this way. Still it was an opportunity for a punch below the belt! :P

After all I'm still laughing in my flame armor.

You seem to really want to turn this into a flame war.
If I'm giving this impression, I'm sorry. I'm just taking this thread quite lightly, that's all (thus all the comments and pic about armor and stuff. Completely and utterly silly).

Anthony: You don't seem to get it. It's a post on a (silly) internet debate. That's all. You want to take it apart, by all means. But YOU want examples. You disagree with the classification I made. That's fine by me, you know... I won't bite, I won't fight back, and I probably won't post much else...

Perhaps I'm trolling a bit. :-/
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2174846 - 10/31/13 01:47 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
beet31425 Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/12/09
Posts: 3815
Loc: Bay Area, CA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Perhaps I'm trolling a bit. :-/

Tone is everything. Nikolas, good-natured, self-deprecating, liberal with the smiley-faces, is the very antithesis of an internet troll. No matter what he actually writes. smile

-J
_________________________
Schubert: Bb Impromptu D.935/3; Mozart: D minor concerto; Chopin: first Ballade

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#2174893 - 10/31/13 03:00 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
Old Man Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 04/04/12
Posts: 778
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I'm just taking this thread quite lightly, that's all (thus all the comments and pic about armor and stuff. Completely and utterly silly).

As well you should. And as well we all should when reading any thread on PW.

Originally Posted By: beet31425
Tone is everything. Nikolas, good-natured, self-deprecating, liberal with the smiley-faces, is the very antithesis of an internet troll.

thumb Nikolas is one of the true gentlemen on this forum. Even if I thought he wrote something spiteful or nasty, I'd first question my own interpretation of what he wrote before I'd ever question his intent. "Nasty" just doesn't seem to be in his DNA.

And if he's doing a bit of trolling at the moment, more power to him. The place needs a little livening up from time to time. grin

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#2174901 - 10/31/13 03:12 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Old Man]
carey Online   content
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 6375
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona
Originally Posted By: Old Man
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
I'm just taking this thread quite lightly, that's all (thus all the comments and pic about armor and stuff. Completely and utterly silly).

As well you should. And as well we all should when reading any thread on PW.

Originally Posted By: beet31425
Tone is everything. Nikolas, good-natured, self-deprecating, liberal with the smiley-faces, is the very antithesis of an internet troll.

thumb Nikolas is one of the true gentlemen on this forum. Even if I thought he wrote something spiteful or nasty, I'd first question my own interpretation of what he wrote before I'd ever question his intent. "Nasty" just doesn't seem to be in his DNA.

And if he's doing a bit of trolling at the moment, more power to him. The place needs a little livening up from time to time. grin


Ditto !!!! thumb thumb thumb
_________________________
YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/pianophilo

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#2174902 - 10/31/13 03:13 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
jeffreyjones Offline
2000 Post Club Member

Registered: 01/31/10
Posts: 2359
Loc: San Jose, CA
If you'll allow me to divert the attention a bit, Rachmaninoff has greater credentials and had greater success, both as a pianist and composer, compared with Scriabin or Medtner.. by pretty much any measure. All three are missing something, though, compared with the masters Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev and later Shostakovich. I suppose that I am predisposed to prefer the composers who respected and understood the contributions of the Western composers, well enough to ultimately improve on them. The "Russian Romantics" were a little too insular and self-absorbed for my taste, though the next guy may have exactly the opposite opinion and admire their individuality.

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#2174916 - 10/31/13 03:46 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: jeffreyjones]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
If you'll allow me to divert the attention a bit, Rachmaninoff has greater credentials and had greater success, both as a pianist and composer, compared with Scriabin or Medtner.. by pretty much any measure. All three are missing something, though, compared with the masters Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev and later Shostakovich. I suppose that I am predisposed to prefer the composers who respected and understood the contributions of the Western composers, well enough to ultimately improve on them. The "Russian Romantics" were a little too insular and self-absorbed for my taste, though the next guy may have exactly the opposite opinion and admire their individuality.

So you're saying that Rachmaninoff was a Russian Romantic, and Tchaikovsky wasn't? Not sure how you're figuring that one out. And yes, Tchaikovsky is a master, even a genius, but Rachmaninoff (his student) surpassed him in almost every way.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2175086 - 10/31/13 11:31 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
[quote=Nikolas]I know... at least I read it this way. Still it was an opportunity for a punch below the belt! :P

After all I'm still laughing in my flame armor.

You seem to really want to turn this into a flame war.
If I'm giving this impression, I'm sorry. I'm just taking this thread quite lightly, that's all (thus all the comments and pic about armor and stuff. Completely and utterly silly).

Anthony: You don't seem to get it. It's a post on a (silly) internet debate. That's all. You want to take it apart, by all means. But YOU want examples. You disagree with the classification I made. That's fine by me, you know... I won't bite, I won't fight back, and I probably won't post much else...

Perhaps I'm trolling a bit. :-/ [/quote
Of course not, you're too superior for all this

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#2175145 - 11/01/13 04:12 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
ando Online   content
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3613
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
This thread has been trashed beyond recognition.

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#2175164 - 11/01/13 05:58 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: ando]
drumour Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 860
Loc: Scotland
Originally Posted By: ando
This thread has been trashed beyond recognition.



That's par for the course just now. (The spoilers tend to get bored after a while and either become useful contributors or go away.) The problem, of course, is that forum members who have something thoughtful or worthwhile to contribute don't contribute for fear of being trashed by this year's young turk or just don't want to get involved in flame wars.

Live in hope.

John
_________________________
Vasa inania multum strepunt.

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#2177095 - 11/04/13 05:57 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: jeffreyjones]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 584
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
If you'll allow me to divert the attention a bit, Rachmaninoff has greater credentials and had greater success, both as a pianist and composer, compared with Scriabin or Medtner.. by pretty much any measure. All three are missing something, though, compared with the masters Tchaikovsky, Prokofiev and later Shostakovich. I suppose that I am predisposed to prefer the composers who respected and understood the contributions of the Western composers, well enough to ultimately improve on them. The "Russian Romantics" were a little too insular and self-absorbed for my taste, though the next guy may have exactly the opposite opinion and admire their individuality.

The funny thing is: The Group of the Five (Cuj, Balakirev, Mussorgsky, Rimsky-Korsakow and Borodin) wanted to make "real" Russian music, and distance themselves from Tschaikowsky. Whether Rachmaninoff is more "Russian" than the Five is open for debate.

As for me, I prefer Shostakovich to Rachmaninoff by far. As for Scriabin... A few months ago I was at a concert with the Cello concerto by Scriabin, and a Symphony by Rachmaninoff (the 3rd or 4th, I don't remember; the one he wrote while being in the USA). And I liked the Rachmaninoff better, because it sounded more like Shostakovich, while the Scriabin sounded a bit too late-romantic for my taste.

This has nothing to do with which hand to use where while playing a prelude, but it's fun discussing music anyway. And since the spin-off thread about innovation and conservatism was locked, I might as well post it here.
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

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#2177106 - 11/04/13 06:20 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: patH]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: patH
A few months ago I was at a concert with the Cello concerto by Scriabin, and a Symphony by Rachmaninoff (the 3rd or 4th, I don't remember; the one he wrote while being in the USA).

He didn't write a 4th; it must have been the 3rd, in A minor. Glorious music.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2177107 - 11/04/13 06:21 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: patH]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: patH
As for me, I prefer Shostakovich to Rachmaninoff by far.

Thank you.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2177124 - 11/04/13 07:11 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
JoelW Offline
4000 Post Club Member

Registered: 05/25/12
Posts: 4831
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
But you see the point is that I don't care to persuade anyone. I'm not passionate at all for this (in fact I did call it a silly debate to begin with. If you were a bit careful you'd have noticed that).

If you are too eager to check examples of both categories, go over to these two websites:
www.musica-ferrum.com
www.northbysound.com

Both contain works of mine. Check, have a listen and see if they all feel the same... :-/

But it IS up to you in the end. I offered an idea and not much else (and something that Polyphonist was eager to discuss...). smile

I tried one of your websites and the page didn't load. Anyway, we're not discussing your music, we're discussing that of Rachmaninoff, Medtner, and Scriabin. You claim that the music of Rachmaninoff is inferior to that of Scriabin because Rachmaninoff was a conservative and refused to be swept up in the wave of atonality that permeated the first half of the twentieth century and which consumed Prokofiev, Stravinsky, and Scriabin. Well, Bach lived during the beginning of the Classical reform movement. Yet he continued to write in the High Baroque way, using his distinctive mixture of the German, Italian, and French styles. Rachmaninoff is very similar in this respect - he remained with the harmonic language and sonority of Late Romanticism, while Scriabin went on to compose vast quantities of atonal music. So, using your criteria, Scarlatti should be superior to Bach.


+100

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#2177191 - 11/04/13 09:43 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: patH]
stores Offline
6000 Post Club Member

Registered: 12/28/09
Posts: 6648
Loc: Here, as opposed to there
Originally Posted By: patH
(the 3rd or 4th, I don't remember; the one he wrote while being in the USA).


He only composed three and if memory serves me correctly he didn't compose any of them in the U.S. The third was premiered in the U.S., however.
_________________________

"And if we look at the works of J.S. Bach — a benevolent god to which all musicians should offer a prayer to defend themselves against mediocrity... -Debussy

"It's ok if you disagree with me. I can't force you to be right."

♪ ≠ $


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#2177350 - 11/05/13 05:54 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
patH Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/09/13
Posts: 584
Loc: Germany
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
He didn't write a 4th; it must have been the 3rd, in A minor. Glorious music.

I just did an Internet search. Rachmaninoff wrote his third symphony in 1935-36; but made revisions to it in 1938. I guess I must have read in the program text that he made the revisions in the USA, or that the premiere was in the USA.
Anyway, it was a symphony that he wrote while being homesick.

But he still is no Shostakovich. One concert I attended this year was with a piano concerto by Rachmaninoff (the second; the one that was used for "All by myself"), and Shostakovich's 10th symphony. I preferred the latter.

But tastes and colors are not open for debate. wink
_________________________
Everything is possible, and nothing is sure.
XXXI

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#2177377 - 11/05/13 07:44 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: patH]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7648
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: patH
But he still is no Shostakovich.

True.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2177402 - 11/05/13 08:30 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
bkw58 Offline

Silver Supporter until December 19, 2014


Registered: 03/14/09
Posts: 1775
Loc: Conway, AR USA
Symphonic Dances orchestral suite - 3 movements - is sometimes mistakenly referred to as his 4th symphony. It was completed in the USA late in the composer's career. Evidence suggests it was actually meant to be a ballet but never quite got there. An interesting work nonetheless. In tandem with his Rhapsody it seems to reveal an incipient progression into modernism.
_________________________
Bob W.
Retired piano technician
www.pianotechno.blogspot.com/

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#2177408 - 11/05/13 08:42 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: patH]
the nosy ape Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 06/10/08
Posts: 715
Loc: Westford, MA
Originally Posted By: patH
One concert I attended this year was with a piano concerto by Rachmaninoff (the second; the one that was used for "All by myself")...

You mean this one?

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#2177463 - 11/05/13 10:39 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: the nosy ape]
griffin2417 Offline

Silver Supporter until Dec 29 2012


Registered: 12/12/10
Posts: 2451
Loc: Minneapolis, MN
Originally Posted By: the nosy ape
Originally Posted By: patH
One concert I attended this year was with a piano concerto by Rachmaninoff (the second; the one that was used for "All by myself")...

You mean this one?


laugh laugh
_________________________
Carl


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