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Topic Options
#2174439 - 10/30/13 04:50 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
ando Offline
3000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 3701
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
The day when Louis Podesta makes a post in which arpeggiation of chords is not mentioned will be the same day that pigs fly and the cow jumps over the moon.


This might well be true, but in the case of this thread, it's particularly relevant. If you do happen to slightly "roll" the hands from low to high, redistributing the notes between the hands has a drastic effect on the sound.

I like to do this a bit myself on this prelude. I tried redistributing the notes in the way suggested and it sounded quite different - certainly enough to suggest to me that the overlapping hands technique indicated by Rachmaninoff is the superior way to play it. It emphasises the sixths between the hands. If you redistribute as suggested and then "roll" the chords, you get rather dull octaves between the hands. Rachmaninoff knew what he was doing.

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#2174443 - 10/30/13 04:59 PM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
Louis Podesta Offline
500 Post Club Member

Registered: 02/05/13
Posts: 780
I particularly don't think an average audience member can hear the difference in live performance. You tell me, after viewing this live performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj5cNBCNcPQ

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#2174592 - 10/31/13 12:12 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: antony]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
It seems like a bit of a shallow question on the surface, but there's a lesson to be learned from it. Most great composers for the piano were also great pianists, and based on his recordings, I feel Rachmaninoff was a greater pianist than a composer. So it's more safe to follow the score and assume that he knew better than you do, rather than second-guess him. In the case of the hand distribution, it's a subtle effect which emphasizes the emptier sonority of the open fifth in the right hand, rather than the thickness of the full chord. Subtle though it may be, though, it's key to the way Rachmaninoff conceived the opening.

It seems extremely common to disregard most of the directions that Rachmaninoff wrote in his scores. The editions of the C-sharp minor Prelude with "sffff" directions seem to sum up the attitude that people have towards a piece which Rachmaninoff himself recorded several times, but never slammed through. He wasn't after bombast - he was after the sound of bells ringing.

I've heard it debated before about what Rachmaninov was best at, piano, composition or conducting. I find it hard to believe that this would ever be up for consideration. Being a composer at the level of a Rachmaninov is an achievement far beyond that of any conductor or pianist

Yes it is debatable. I used to think Rakhmaninov is a great composer. However, the more I listen to other composers of his contemporaries, such as, Scriabin and Medtner, the more I believe Rakhmaninov is a greater pianist and conductor than a composer.

I know some of you guys will reply in rage, but let me finish: this is in no way disrespecting Rakhmaninov nor his compositions in any way.

Top
#2174598 - 10/31/13 12:22 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Alan Lai]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
It seems like a bit of a shallow question on the surface, but there's a lesson to be learned from it. Most great composers for the piano were also great pianists, and based on his recordings, I feel Rachmaninoff was a greater pianist than a composer. So it's more safe to follow the score and assume that he knew better than you do, rather than second-guess him. In the case of the hand distribution, it's a subtle effect which emphasizes the emptier sonority of the open fifth in the right hand, rather than the thickness of the full chord. Subtle though it may be, though, it's key to the way Rachmaninoff conceived the opening.

It seems extremely common to disregard most of the directions that Rachmaninoff wrote in his scores. The editions of the C-sharp minor Prelude with "sffff" directions seem to sum up the attitude that people have towards a piece which Rachmaninoff himself recorded several times, but never slammed through. He wasn't after bombast - he was after the sound of bells ringing.

I've heard it debated before about what Rachmaninov was best at, piano, composition or conducting. I find it hard to believe that this would ever be up for consideration. Being a composer at the level of a Rachmaninov is an achievement far beyond that of any conductor or pianist

Yes it is debatable. I used to think Rakhmaninov is a great composer. However, the more I listen to other composers of his contemporaries, such as, Scriabin and Medtner, the more I believe Rakhmaninov is a greater pianist and conductor than a composer.

I know some of you guys will reply in rage, but let me finish: this is in no way disrespecting Rakhmaninov nor his compositions in any way.


Of course it is; you're claiming that Scriabin and Medtner are greater than Rachmaninoff. Of course, IMNSHO, this is absolutely wrong. Scriabin and Medtner never reached the level of depth that Rachmaninoff reaches in, say, the second movement of the second concerto, or the Preludes 32/10 and 13, or the third or fourth movements of the second symphony.

Rachmaninoff was a great pianist and conductor, but when it comes to composition I count him among the titans.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2174602 - 10/31/13 12:37 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
It seems like a bit of a shallow question on the surface, but there's a lesson to be learned from it. Most great composers for the piano were also great pianists, and based on his recordings, I feel Rachmaninoff was a greater pianist than a composer. So it's more safe to follow the score and assume that he knew better than you do, rather than second-guess him. In the case of the hand distribution, it's a subtle effect which emphasizes the emptier sonority of the open fifth in the right hand, rather than the thickness of the full chord. Subtle though it may be, though, it's key to the way Rachmaninoff conceived the opening.

It seems extremely common to disregard most of the directions that Rachmaninoff wrote in his scores. The editions of the C-sharp minor Prelude with "sffff" directions seem to sum up the attitude that people have towards a piece which Rachmaninoff himself recorded several times, but never slammed through. He wasn't after bombast - he was after the sound of bells ringing.

I've heard it debated before about what Rachmaninov was best at, piano, composition or conducting. I find it hard to believe that this would ever be up for consideration. Being a composer at the level of a Rachmaninov is an achievement far beyond that of any conductor or pianist

Yes it is debatable. I used to think Rakhmaninov is a great composer. However, the more I listen to other composers of his contemporaries, such as, Scriabin and Medtner, the more I believe Rakhmaninov is a greater pianist and conductor than a composer.

I know some of you guys will reply in rage, but let me finish: this is in no way disrespecting Rakhmaninov nor his compositions in any way.


Of course it is; you're claiming that Scriabin and Medtner are greater than Rachmaninoff. Of course, IMNSHO, this is absolutely wrong. Scriabin and Medtner never reached the level of depth that Rachmaninoff reaches in, say, the second movement of the second concerto, or the Preludes 32/10 and 13, or the third or fourth movements of the second symphony.

Rachmaninoff was a great pianist and conductor, but when it comes to composition I count him among the titans.

How many works of Scriabin and Medtner have you really listened to?

Top
#2174603 - 10/31/13 12:41 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Alan Lai]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
It seems like a bit of a shallow question on the surface, but there's a lesson to be learned from it. Most great composers for the piano were also great pianists, and based on his recordings, I feel Rachmaninoff was a greater pianist than a composer. So it's more safe to follow the score and assume that he knew better than you do, rather than second-guess him. In the case of the hand distribution, it's a subtle effect which emphasizes the emptier sonority of the open fifth in the right hand, rather than the thickness of the full chord. Subtle though it may be, though, it's key to the way Rachmaninoff conceived the opening.

It seems extremely common to disregard most of the directions that Rachmaninoff wrote in his scores. The editions of the C-sharp minor Prelude with "sffff" directions seem to sum up the attitude that people have towards a piece which Rachmaninoff himself recorded several times, but never slammed through. He wasn't after bombast - he was after the sound of bells ringing.

I've heard it debated before about what Rachmaninov was best at, piano, composition or conducting. I find it hard to believe that this would ever be up for consideration. Being a composer at the level of a Rachmaninov is an achievement far beyond that of any conductor or pianist

Yes it is debatable. I used to think Rakhmaninov is a great composer. However, the more I listen to other composers of his contemporaries, such as, Scriabin and Medtner, the more I believe Rakhmaninov is a greater pianist and conductor than a composer.

I know some of you guys will reply in rage, but let me finish: this is in no way disrespecting Rakhmaninov nor his compositions in any way.


Of course it is; you're claiming that Scriabin and Medtner are greater than Rachmaninoff. Of course, IMNSHO, this is absolutely wrong. Scriabin and Medtner never reached the level of depth that Rachmaninoff reaches in, say, the second movement of the second concerto, or the Preludes 32/10 and 13, or the third or fourth movements of the second symphony.

Rachmaninoff was a great pianist and conductor, but when it comes to composition I count him among the titans.

How many works of Scriabin and Medtner have you really listened to?

More than you think. All Scriabin's sonatas, most of his preludes, his piano concerto, all Medtner's sonatas (several times, and I think they're amazing works), a couple Medtner concerti and some smaller pieces.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2174605 - 10/31/13 12:44 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: jeffreyjones
It seems like a bit of a shallow question on the surface, but there's a lesson to be learned from it. Most great composers for the piano were also great pianists, and based on his recordings, I feel Rachmaninoff was a greater pianist than a composer. So it's more safe to follow the score and assume that he knew better than you do, rather than second-guess him. In the case of the hand distribution, it's a subtle effect which emphasizes the emptier sonority of the open fifth in the right hand, rather than the thickness of the full chord. Subtle though it may be, though, it's key to the way Rachmaninoff conceived the opening.

It seems extremely common to disregard most of the directions that Rachmaninoff wrote in his scores. The editions of the C-sharp minor Prelude with "sffff" directions seem to sum up the attitude that people have towards a piece which Rachmaninoff himself recorded several times, but never slammed through. He wasn't after bombast - he was after the sound of bells ringing.

I've heard it debated before about what Rachmaninov was best at, piano, composition or conducting. I find it hard to believe that this would ever be up for consideration. Being a composer at the level of a Rachmaninov is an achievement far beyond that of any conductor or pianist

Yes it is debatable. I used to think Rakhmaninov is a great composer. However, the more I listen to other composers of his contemporaries, such as, Scriabin and Medtner, the more I believe Rakhmaninov is a greater pianist and conductor than a composer.

I know some of you guys will reply in rage, but let me finish: this is in no way disrespecting Rakhmaninov nor his compositions in any way.


Of course it is; you're claiming that Scriabin and Medtner are greater than Rachmaninoff. Of course, IMNSHO, this is absolutely wrong. Scriabin and Medtner never reached the level of depth that Rachmaninoff reaches in, say, the second movement of the second concerto, or the Preludes 32/10 and 13, or the third or fourth movements of the second symphony.

Rachmaninoff was a great pianist and conductor, but when it comes to composition I count him among the titans.

How many works of Scriabin and Medtner have you really listened to?

More than you think. All Scriabin's sonatas, most of his preludes, his piano concerto, all Medtner's sonatas (several times, and I think they're amazing works), a couple Medtner concerti and some smaller pieces.

But no Scriabin's Symphonies?

Let's agree to disagree.

Top
#2174606 - 10/31/13 12:46 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Alan Lai]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: antony

I've heard it debated before about what Rachmaninov was best at, piano, composition or conducting. I find it hard to believe that this would ever be up for consideration. Being a composer at the level of a Rachmaninov is an achievement far beyond that of any conductor or pianist

Yes it is debatable. I used to think Rakhmaninov is a great composer. However, the more I listen to other composers of his contemporaries, such as, Scriabin and Medtner, the more I believe Rakhmaninov is a greater pianist and conductor than a composer.

I know some of you guys will reply in rage, but let me finish: this is in no way disrespecting Rakhmaninov nor his compositions in any way.


Of course it is; you're claiming that Scriabin and Medtner are greater than Rachmaninoff. Of course, IMNSHO, this is absolutely wrong. Scriabin and Medtner never reached the level of depth that Rachmaninoff reaches in, say, the second movement of the second concerto, or the Preludes 32/10 and 13, or the third or fourth movements of the second symphony.

Rachmaninoff was a great pianist and conductor, but when it comes to composition I count him among the titans.

How many works of Scriabin and Medtner have you really listened to?

More than you think. All Scriabin's sonatas, most of his preludes, his piano concerto, all Medtner's sonatas (several times, and I think they're amazing works), a couple Medtner concerti and some smaller pieces.

But no Scriabin's Symphonies?

Let's agree to disagree.

Yes, that was just piano music. I've heard his 1st and 2nd symphonies, and I liked them a lot. But they do not move me in the way Rach's 2nd does.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2174607 - 10/31/13 12:47 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate?

Just wondering if I should join or not... grin

EDIT: Polyphonist: music does not exist to move you. There are other reasons as well... wink


Edited by Nikolas (10/31/13 12:48 AM)
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

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#2174609 - 10/31/13 12:49 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate?

Just wondering if I should join or not... grin

I am a composer, and yes, feel free to join. I have no problem having this discussion as long as it doesn't escalate into a flame war.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2174610 - 10/31/13 12:50 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate?

Just wondering if I should join or not... grin

I am a composer, and yes, feel free to join. I have no problem having this discussion as long as it doesn't escalate into a flame war.

Not sure whether you are inviting to discuss or not with your "absolutely wrong" and "IMNSHO".

So I'll stay out. wink

Top
#2174611 - 10/31/13 12:52 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate?

Just wondering if I should join or not... grin

EDIT: Polyphonist: music does not exist to move you. There are other reasons as well... wink

I can see where you are going. That's one main reason I hold Scriabin above Rakhmaninov in terms of composition skills.

Top
#2174612 - 10/31/13 12:52 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Alan Lai]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate?

Just wondering if I should join or not... grin

I am a composer, and yes, feel free to join. I have no problem having this discussion as long as it doesn't escalate into a flame war.

Not sure whether you are inviting to discuss or not with your "absolutely wrong" and "IMNSHO".

So I'll stay out. wink

Just because I have a strong opinion doesn't mean I don't want to discuss it. And "absolutely wrong" was the wrong phrase to use, sorry.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2174614 - 10/31/13 12:54 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Alan Lai]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate?

Just wondering if I should join or not... grin

EDIT: Polyphonist: music does not exist to move you. There are other reasons as well... wink

I can see where you are going. That's one main reason I hold Scriabin above Rakhmaninov in terms of composition skills.

What reason?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2174616 - 10/31/13 01:01 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Ok.

I'll be wearing this little baby and we can start: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qbN0A_FRJ5A/Ui...greenpepper.jpg

I think that when "classifying" composers you can go in two main different directions:
a. How much 'niceness' is in his music. What great music he wrote.
b. How much 'creativity' is in his music. How original he was.

In the case of Rachmaninoff I think that in "a" he was simply brilliant. His music is great, is heard all over the place, people love it and pianists love it. -

As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine).

Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2174618 - 10/31/13 01:05 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine).

Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative...

Okay, now we're getting somewhere. The part I disagree with here is your assumption that the fact that Rachmaninoff was a conservative automatically means he wasn't creative, and recycled ideas, which is just not true of him. And then for some reason you bring your own experience into the discussion, which is completely irrelevant.

Bach was a conservative also. Does that make Bach inferior to Scarlatti and Telemann?
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

Top
#2174629 - 10/31/13 01:16 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Polyphonist]
ScriabinAddict Offline
Full Member

Registered: 06/10/12
Posts: 335
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Yes, that was just piano music. I've heard his 1st and 2nd symphonies, and I liked them a lot. But they do not move me in the way Rach's 2nd does.


Go listen to the Poem of Ecstasy and Prometheus. While his first two symphonies are great, I don't think they compare to his other 3 (if you want to count the latter 2 as symphonies). There's nothing better than the climaxes of both of those two pieces (especially Prometheus).

Top
#2174638 - 10/31/13 01:42 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Alan Lai]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Let me ask you guys something: Does it matter whose opinion you're reading? Would a composers opinion matter more than a pianists, in this (rather silly if I may add) debate?

Just wondering if I should join or not... grin

EDIT: Polyphonist: music does not exist to move you. There are other reasons as well... wink

I can see where you are going. That's one main reason I hold Scriabin above Rakhmaninov in terms of composition skills.

You might think Scriabin was a better composer, but my point is their achievement as composers is far beyond that of even a great pianist or conductor

Top
#2174640 - 10/31/13 01:45 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Ok.

I'll be wearing this little baby and we can start: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qbN0A_FRJ5A/Ui...greenpepper.jpg

I think that when "classifying" composers you can go in two main different directions:
a. How much 'niceness' is in his music. What great music he wrote.
b. How much 'creativity' is in his music. How original he was.

In the case of Rachmaninoff I think that in "a" he was simply brilliant. His music is great, is heard all over the place, people love it and pianists love it. -

As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine).

Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative...

"b" is called "ego"

Top
#2174641 - 10/31/13 01:48 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2174644 - 10/31/13 02:03 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha...

It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry

Top
#2174645 - 10/31/13 02:04 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: antony]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Ok.

I'll be wearing this little baby and we can start: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qbN0A_FRJ5A/Ui...greenpepper.jpg

I think that when "classifying" composers you can go in two main different directions:
a. How much 'niceness' is in his music. What great music he wrote.
b. How much 'creativity' is in his music. How original he was.

In the case of Rachmaninoff I think that in "a" he was simply brilliant. His music is great, is heard all over the place, people love it and pianists love it. -

As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine).

Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative...

"b" is called "ego"

So are you insinuating what makes Rakhmaninov a great composer is just how nice his compositions sound?

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#2174646 - 10/31/13 02:05 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: antony]
Alan Lai Offline
Full Member

Registered: 09/16/13
Posts: 309
Loc: USA/Hong Kong
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha...

It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry

Alright. I'm out.

This is going nowhere.

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#2174650 - 10/31/13 02:34 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Alan Lai]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Alan Lai
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Ok.

I'll be wearing this little baby and we can start: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-qbN0A_FRJ5A/Ui...greenpepper.jpg

I think that when "classifying" composers you can go in two main different directions:
a. How much 'niceness' is in his music. What great music he wrote.
b. How much 'creativity' is in his music. How original he was.

In the case of Rachmaninoff I think that in "a" he was simply brilliant. His music is great, is heard all over the place, people love it and pianists love it. -

As far as "b" is concerned however, he seemed to disregard any new developments in music, and went his own new-romantic way. Which may be fine and dandy, but when it comes to composing, I (personally) feel very much restrained, if I have to base my stuff on a given melody, or a pre-existing idea. (and to explain, this is not a pun towards you, polyphonist. I'm in the middle of working on a commission on a well known theme, and while I'm enjoying the process and it's fun, it simply doesn't feel mine).

Somehow, when using the same ideas/stuff/aesthetic many times, for me (I repeat) it feels less creative...

"b" is called "ego"

So are you insinuating what makes Rakhmaninov a great composer is just how nice his compositions sound?

I'm not but he is

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#2174653 - 10/31/13 02:48 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: antony]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha...

It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry
lol. It's agood thing I wore that flame armor... Brr...
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2174677 - 10/31/13 05:44 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: Nikolas]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha...

It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry
lol. It's agood thing I wore that flame armor... Brr...

Why don't you provide an example from both of the categories that you outlined from your definition; perhaps something of your own

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#2174694 - 10/31/13 07:44 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: ScriabinAddict]
Polyphonist Offline
7000 Post Club Member

Registered: 03/03/13
Posts: 7777
Loc: New York City
Originally Posted By: ScriabinAddict
Originally Posted By: Polyphonist
Yes, that was just piano music. I've heard his 1st and 2nd symphonies, and I liked them a lot. But they do not move me in the way Rach's 2nd does.


Go listen to the Poem of Ecstasy and Prometheus. While his first two symphonies are great, I don't think they compare to his other 3 (if you want to count the latter 2 as symphonies). There's nothing better than the climaxes of both of those two pieces (especially Prometheus).

Yes there is. The climax of the Rachmaninoff. Of course this is all subjective.
_________________________
Regards,

Polyphonist

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#2174706 - 10/31/13 08:19 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: antony]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
Originally Posted By: antony
Originally Posted By: Nikolas
antony: I really need to go (school run), but you're kidding right? "b" is ego?!?! haha...

It takes a lot of "b" to produce "a". Better to laugh than to cry
lol. It's agood thing I wore that flame armor... Brr...

Why don't you provide an example from both of the categories that you outlined from your definition; perhaps something of your own
apart from the fact that Google is your friend and so is my signature, how about you tell me/us a little more about your own thoughts on the subject instead of throwing single phrase posts, huh? I mean do you disagree with the categories I provided or is it something else at hand here?
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
#2174736 - 10/31/13 09:58 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
antony Offline
Full Member

Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 398
Loc: Portland, OR
Of course I disagree with your categories- yet the burden of proof is not on the one who disagrees, but the one who makes the claim. Considering the categories were created by you, it doesn't seem like you would be reluctant to present a composer or work that you think is successful because it employs the traits in category "a" and similarly examples of successful works/composers that employ category "b"

Top
#2174741 - 10/31/13 10:11 AM Re: Rachmaninoff Prelude C# minor hands uncrossed? [Re: PianoSlave]
Nikolas Online   content
5000 Post Club Member

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 5429
Loc: Europe
But you see the point is that I don't care to persuade anyone. I'm not passionate at all for this (in fact I did call it a silly debate to begin with. If you were a bit careful you'd have noticed that).

If you are too eager to check examples of both categories, go over to these two websites:
www.musica-ferrum.com
www.northbysound.com

Both contain works of mine. Check, have a listen and see if they all feel the same... :-/

But it IS up to you in the end. I offered an idea and not much else (and something that Polyphonist was eager to discuss...). smile
_________________________
http://www.musica-ferrum.com

Top
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